OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[TruDivination]

We love to see a good V moment!!!

[Ivrytwr]

I love the logical V. And Serini's "folksy" charm.
This one made me laugh hard.
Thanks Giant!

[Roland Itiative]

Loved the combination shell game and gauntlet, but I'm not sure I follow V's logic there. If they're doing each dungeon in a known average time, in order, Serini could easily figure out roughly how long they have until they hit the correct door in the pure shell game scenario. Well, either way, great comic as always!

[Duncun]

I have to admit. I did not see that one coming. But it makes sense now that it has been revealed.

[Wintermoot]

tweeby shoe-doubler
goat-smacking fleece folders


man, this lady is on fire

I did not solve the mystery of how to get to the final gate, and I don't think I've seen anyone in thread figure it out either. But its genius and makes perfect sense. Way to go Giant!

[vonBoomslang]

Loved the combination shell game and gauntlet, but I'm not sure I follow V's logic there. If they're doing each dungeon in a known average time, in order, Serini could easily figure out roughly how long they have until they hit the correct door in the pure shell game scenario. Well, either way, great comic as always!

V is working off the interpretation that even a vague time estimate would let them figure out the exact location.

[Peelee]

tweeby shoe-doubler
goat-smacking fleece folders


man, this lady is on fire

I did not solve the mystery of how to get to the final gate, and I don't think I've seen anyone in thread figure it out either. But its genius and makes perfect sense. Way to go Giant!

I recall people suggesting it might be a gauntlet, but i dont have any links to such.

[Shining Wrath]

OK, I did not see this coming. The right door is always the last place you look.

But that means that if you can somehow hide a door so that Team Evil skips it, they'll never find the Gate.

A better solution would be to convince the LN robot to leave.

[Peelee]

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

[Wintermoot]

Loved the combination shell game and gauntlet, but I'm not sure I follow V's logic there. If they're doing each dungeon in a known average time, in order, Serini could easily figure out roughly how long they have until they hit the correct door in the pure shell game scenario. Well, either way, great comic as always!

let's say there are 100 doors. I Know there are more, but for the sake of the explanation, it doesn't matter. Let's say there are 1 hundred

We know they have explored 27 of them already, at a rate of 7 minutes per door. Starting at end A and working toward end B.

1. If the gate was behind ONE specific door, say, door 50, then Serini's rough estimate would be "they will find the door in 161 more minutes." which could then be fed into a formula to figure out what door it's behind. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.

2. If the gate isn't there at all, then Serini wouldn't be able to give an estimate beyond "some point beyond another 511 minutes. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.

2.5. The unspoken option. the gate is randomly shifted and could be located behind any random door. Serini wouldn't be able to give an estimate and she says she can. So that removes that option.

3. Minimum number. the gate COULD be located behind any door. In this case Serini's estimate would have to be "within the next 7 minutes" because she doesn't know if they will find it or not. And, as V pointed out, they would statistically have already found it.

4. Maximum number. 511 minutes. That's the only remaining "rough estimate" that Serini could provide (after she herself removed the option that it WAS behind a specific singular door) so that's how V deduced it. The entrance to the final dungeon can only be revealed after all dungeons are explored.

[Morgaln]

Loved the combination shell game and gauntlet, but I'm not sure I follow V's logic there. If they're doing each dungeon in a known average time, in order, Serini could easily figure out roughly how long they have until they hit the correct door in the pure shell game scenario. Well, either way, great comic as always!

That's only true if Serini knows the order in which they are searching the doors. Are they going left to right? Top to bottom? Counterclockwise in a circle? If the target is a specific door, the search pattern matters. If it is not one particular door, it doesn't.

[Zarhan]

Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

[KorvinStarmast]

But that means that if you can somehow hide a door so that Team Evil skips it, they'll never find the Gate. A different variation than the MitD 'mark as searched' a door that they have not searched as a means to frustrate Team Evil's search scheme. But it doesn't rely on an outside agent.

This strip, 1277, suggests that Redcloak's organized and efficient search plan approach (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) wasn't going to get Team Evil to the gate any sooner than brute force.

[Windscion]

Whoa! They are totes back on the clock. I did not anticipate this.
If only there were some way to hide at least one entrance. With illusions, say.

[Sir_Norbert]

Well, that puts paid to the "it's really under the statue" nonsense at long last :D

[Frozenstep]

Huh. That's pretty clever, actually. No chance of invaders getting lucky, no chance of invaders outsmarting it...plenty of time for Serini to either arrange an ambush, or call for help. This gate might be the most impressive one yet.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?
Are we sure that the Bugbears do full clears?

[Wintermoot]

Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

well V was about to explore the possibilities, before they were so rudely interrupted. Now we'll never know!

We know it's probably not "kill everyone in every dungeon" because if so, the bad guys would be screwed as they are leaving everything alive. But then again team Good doesn't know that, so they could be laboring for no reason.

I suspect it's tied to the "trap". You have to cross and recross each swapover once and back. If you go retrigger a swapover you've already been through, it resets the count. I bet if you just stepped in and out of each swapover, it would reveal the final dungeon.

[Resileaf]

Not entirely unexpected, but good to see that Serini did indeed combine her dungeon designing philosophy with Kraagor's.

[hamishspence]

I like Serini's increasingly imaginative swears.

[Resileaf]

Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

We know for a fact that the dungeons replenish themselves after a few months. It seems likely that you need to clear every dungeon in the span of a few months and when you do, something happens at the end of the last.

[Faldrath]

Are we sure that the Bugbears do full clears?

I don't think full clears matter, since Team Evil is not doing full clears now (they're skipping most monsters). Might be just reaching the final room?

[SlashDash]

Ha! I figured it was something requiring you to go through all the doors - otherwise the monster's trick was pointless to the story.

But I am confused about one thing. Is there a point to the swap-overs?
Does it matter if you go through them or not?
I'll guess we'll wait and see.


That, and I still wonder if there's some significance for Redcloak moving Kraggor's statue.
It's possible the author just wanted to exclude the obvious guess that the gate is in the statue or something.

But I still wonder if there's something more about it.

[Psyren]

Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

This is my question. I can't think of how this works at all.

And come on Kraagor, really? A gauntlet where you don't actually have to fight anything? He should be forcing you to pile up the corpses on a scale or something!

[Roland Itiative]

V is working off the interpretation that even a vague time estimate would let them figure out the exact location.
Yeah, and that assumption is not really that good. We're dealing with average times and rough estimations, any conclusion would likewise work only within a certain margin of error.

If the Gate was behind one specific door, and Serini gave her rough estimate based on the average 7 minutes per door data, the Order would be able to easily conclude that one of a few doors are the only possible candidates, which would allow them to bypass most of the problem and trivialise the search (just start at the door that the math says is the correct one assuming the estimated information is entirely correct, then expand the interval as needed until you find the correct one). Clearly that's already way more information than the paranoid Serini would be willing to give.


1. If the gate was behind ONE specific door, say, door 50, then Serini's rough estimate would be "they will find the door in 161 more minutes." which could then be fed into a formula to figure out what door it's behind. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.
That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?

[Wintermoot]

Yeah, and that assumption is not really that good. We're dealing with average times and rough estimations, any conclusion would likewise work only within a certain margin of error.

If the Gate was behind one specific door, and Serini gave her rough estimate based on the average 7 minutes per door data, the Order would be able to easily conclude that one of a few doors are the only possible candidates, which would allow them to bypass most of the problem and trivialise the search (just start at the door that the math says is the correct one assuming the estimated information is entirely correct, then expand the interval as needed until you find the correct one). Clearly that's already way more information than the paranoid Serini would be willing to give.


That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?

Because they asked Serini and she told them "It's not behind one specific door". So that option was removed before we got to the "can a rough estimate reveal the location"

[Quinton250]

Would the possibility that the gate is hidden by a mechanism similar to the combination lock on a locker or safe be covered by V's explanation of a "minimum quantity" but also the explanation for a scenario where a vague approximation of the estimated time would not reveal the solution? Let's say they had to finish gates 44, 27, 81 and 11 in that order without finishing any other gates in between. If they messed up the order, they've have to wait for them to repopulate again. That would have a minimum time (four dungeons, 28 or so minutes) but the average time it would take would be so impossibly long that it would be indiscernible from other random based solutions.

[Sir_Norbert]

That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?

Serini said "If I told you that, you'd know where it is", which would only make sense with the gate being behind a specific door if Team Evil's order of searching the doors was known to everyone in the room.

[Starknight62040]

Roh Ruh. Clock's a ticking.

[Faldrath]

And come on Kraagor, really? A gauntlet where you don't actually have to fight anything? He should be forcing you to pile up the corpses on a scale or something!

Kraagor didn't build it, he was dead. Serini did it in his honor, so it's a pretty cute mixture, actually.

[Kish]

That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?
Because "fed into a formula" or not, Serini wouldn't be worried about Roy knowing where the final dungeon was if she said something that vague to a human brain. This may assume more rationality than Serini has yet shown; she is disappointingly demonstrating herself to be more obsessed with secrecy than Girard ever was.

Alternatively: because if that was it, Serini would have had to say "I need to know what order they're going in to know that." Instead, as soon as she heard that they were searching all the dungeons, she locked on "no one else gets my information" rather than "I need more information."

[enq]

Why are you all missing the real highlight of this strip? The soup isn't done cooking, much less consumed, so Roy can in fact get rid of his mild hunger problem.

Also, that is a lot of soup.

[ManuelSacha]

Just hit them all.
Also known as "the Okuyasu Nijimura solution".

[selkiesmooth]

Blackwing just told Roy "they're numbering them and being extra methodical". That doesn't tell him where they are, where they started, or what search pattern they're using. Roy doesn't know that, so the Order and Serini don't know that... but she still knew giving an ETA would give away the answer. Any 'it's behind a specific door' ETA would be "it depends". Hence V's conclusion.

[Wintermoot]

Would the possibility that the gate is hidden by a mechanism similar to the combination lock on a locker or safe be covered by V's explanation of a "minimum quantity" but also the explanation for a scenario where a vague approximation of the estimated time would not reveal the solution? Let's say they had to finish gates 44, 27, 81 and 11 in that order without finishing any other gates in between. If they messed up the order, they've have to wait for them to repopulate again. That would have a minimum time (four dungeons, 28 or so minutes) but the average time it would take would be so impossibly long that it would be indiscernible from other random based solutions.

When pressed for a rough estimate, Serini implied she COULD provide it, she just wouldn't, because it would reveal the location of the entrance to the final dungeon.

If it was some kind of combination lock like that, Serini wouldn't be able to provide a rough estimate because she'd have no way to know when team evil would get around to looking through dungeons in that particular order. (centuries from now)

So it's removed by the implication that the current search pattern CAN lead to a rough estimate of time at all.

[Psyren]

That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?

Because for providing an estimate to reveal the result if the door was a random one of the ones in the canyon, Serini would have to know exactly where Team Evil currently are and what end they started from. The fact that she could give an estimate that would reveal the result without knowing both two things, means that "all" is the only answer left.

[jaymiechan]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

[danielxcutter]

Can I just say I love the protagonists being highly competent? Because I do.


Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

As O-Chul said, the gesture itself does matter more than than the actual effectiveness, but otherwise yes.


Why are you all missing the real highlight of this strip? The soup isn't done cooking, much less consumed, so Roy can in fact get rid of his mild hunger problem.

Also, that is a lot of soup.

Well, they have to feed ten humanoids and a growing beholder, plus there are spells to preserve food so leftovers aren't an issue.

And I did expect that they'd save a bowl for him, but this is better.

[Quinton250]

When pressed for a rough estimate, Serini implied she COULD provide it, she just wouldn't, because it would reveal the location of the entrance to the final dungeon.

If it was some kind of combination lock like that, Serini wouldn't be able to provide a rough estimate because she'd have no way to know when team evil would get around to looking through dungeons in that particular order. (centuries from now)

So it's removed by the implication that the current search pattern CAN lead to a rough estimate of time at all.

You are correct, I read the strip again and realize I misinterpreted V's definition for minimum.

[enq]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

I agree with your last sentence. But why would she make it possible for others to make progress? Hey, you beat all the fake dungeons, so I'm going to reward you with access to the real one because...?

[SlashDash]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

The problem is, the room they are in now, is connected to the internal tunnels - where Serini confronted the party after they bypassed the swapovers.

And Serini specifically said this is not the final dungeon (1258).

Her dialogue here seems to indicate there's another dungeon, just that the entrance won't be revealed until you go through all the doors -

But obviously Serini has another way in there. I doubt she would force herself to do that.

[danielxcutter]

I agree with your last sentence. But why would she make it possible for others to make progress? Hey, you beat all the fake dungeons, so I'm going to reward you with access to the real one because...?

Because the swapovers are barely even the first line of defense; "any competent rogue" (at least, one high-level enough to feasibly be a member of the party attempting to do so) could detect them. Also, this is as much of a tribute to his memory as much as it is actual protection.

[Peelee]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

Doubtful. That's just another way to make it possible for someone to get lucky. Like the Order did almost immediately.

[enq]

Ah yes, that makes sense. It's outright hilarious how much time Team Evil is wasting by not having a rogue.

By the way, I judge that V was as awesome in this strip as Haley was in #1243 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1243.html).

[Faldrath]

Yeah, and Serini wouldn't be the last line of defense herself. I am now wondering, though... assuming the final dungeon has the most difficult monsters - what if it has another, grown up, MitD?

[Fyraltari]

I don't understand, going through all doors will reveal the location of the actual dungeon, or allow it to be accessed? How? And most importantly, why? Serini must have had to actually put in the effort of putting in place such a mechanism... To make it easier to reach the Gate? But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.

[Peelee]

This is my question. I can't think of how this works at all.

I don't understand, going through all doors will reveal the location of the actual dungeon, or allow it to be accessed? How?
Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.

But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.

Citation?

[danielxcutter]

This one seems like a "you must be this tall" thing. Also, the reason why the Scribblers didn't just bury the Gates under several hundred feet of solid bedrock is the possibility of requiring to access them for whatever reason, such as maintenance; I think that was brought up in Shojo's explanation.

[Leliel]

And thus, MiTD actually contributed!

Because his sabotage means that Team Evil has no idea what dungeons were cleared already, and thus, have to start over to ensure that nothing was missed.

Basically, whatever the clock is, he reset it.

[Wowlock]

I mean, yea, I guess that is a way to hide the final gate. But without MITD's interference, the evil team would've found it eventually, then. And now they are doing it faster and it gets the clock ticking a lot faster. After all, for a Lich, even for one as restless as Xykon, it would only be a matter of time and the 'Gauntlet' aspect wouldn't matter to him much since he loves killing stuff.

Honestly, a better way to hide to would've been to have the Final door be hidden behind the dungeon that is was just cleared, ever time. They mentioned the shell game. And a player can never win that game if the user knows sleight-of-hand. After all, if you can somehow hide the final gate in a system where it will just show up after all dungeons are cleared, you can make one where I gave as an example.

But, Barbarians, Gauntlets, yea that fits I guess.

[Quinton250]

Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.


Yes, the fact that they dismiss V so quickly after they brilliantly cracks the puzzle is indication that we shouldn't focus on it. It's either because it doesn't matter to the story, because there isn't an actual explanation, or both. It's both. It's definitely both. Now let's move on as we've been directed :smalltongue:

[WindStruck]

I really don't follow any of this logic, considering Serini was just outright refusing to give any info at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I recall people suggesting it might be a gauntlet, but i dont have any links to such.

FWIW, it's always been my assumption that this was the case - "you have to reach the end of every door" seems like the kind of think Kraagor would approve of. But like V said, there were only ever 3 possibilities, "it's behind a random door", "it's behind none of the doors" and "it's set so you have to complete all the doors". A 1 in 3 chance guess is barely something to brag about.

GW

[137beth]

Serini is not as smart as she thought she was. Good thinking V.

[Wintermoot]

I really don't follow any of this logic, considering Serini was just outright refusing to give any info at all.

Because, despite her protestations, she'd already revealed SO MUCH information.

Is the gate behind one of the doors. Asked and Answered. No.
Is the gate here, in the back stage. Asked and Answered. No.
Will they find the gate eventually by following this search strategy. Asked and Answered. Yes.
Can you provide an estimate of how long it will take. Asked and Answered. Yes.


Those four, seemingly innocuous answers are then used to deduce the answer she outright refuses to divulge.

She was hoisted by her own petard because she refused to just shut up and stop being badgered into giving little slips of information.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, and Serini wouldn't be the last line of defense herself. I am now wondering, though... assuming the final dungeon has the most difficult monsters - what if it has another, grown up, MitD?

In support of this, I'll point out that MitD's "much bigger" dad is still unaccounted for. I've long thought that MitD was alone in the jungle because his dad got poached by Serini's monster accumulation for her dungeon.

GW

[Peelee]

Because, despite her protestations, she'd already revealed SO MUCH information.

Is the gate behind one of the doors. Asked and Answered. No.
Is the gate here, in the back stage. Asked and Answered. No.
Will they find the gate eventually by following this search strategy. Asked and Answered. Yes.
Can you provide an estimate of how long it will take. Asked and Answered. Yes.


Those four, seemingly innocuous answers are then used to deduce the answer she outright refuses to divulge.

She was hoisted by her own petard because she refused to just shut up and stop being badgered into giving little slips of information.

Perfect example of "if you don't want to talk to the authorities, dont talk to the authorities. Not 'talk because you don't think youre giving them anything'. DON'T. TALK."

[danielxcutter]

Also, Serini considering them to be incompetent fools who wouldn't know the right end of a wand if it shot Fireballs into their crotch is kind of a recurring theme ever since she appeared.

[Wintermoot]

I recall people suggesting it might be a gauntlet, but i dont have any links to such.

I'm quite sure that in short order we'll have any number of people claim to have seen this coming without being able to provide any such posting to previous claims. With lots of "it was obvious" and "a child could have seen it" qualifiers.

[Kish]

A child could have seen it.

Probably not me as a child, and definitely not me as an adult. But I'm sure there are a number of children who would have gone "they have to go through all the dungeons to find the prize!"

[danielxcutter]

Also, hindsight is +20/+20. If that hasn't happened yet though I don't expect a lot later.

[Metastachydium]

Well, that puts paid to the "it's really under the statue" nonsense at long last :D

[Raging.] What statue? There is no statue!


If only there were some way to hide at least one entrance. With illusions, say.

Could that be a job for Aquaman Eugene? Not likely, but hey.


Are we sure that the Bugbears do full clears?

Why would they? Oona is mostly interested in preserving the flow of monsters, a philosophy that seems to clash with "exterminate everything and hope it all grows back". Lots of shallow dives also sounds less resource-intensive.


But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.


Citation?


Also, the reason why the Scribblers didn't just bury the Gates under several hundred feet of solid bedrock is the possibility of requiring to access them for whatever reason, such as maintenance

Let's see. Girard's was encased in a pillar. Serini's accessible, but it might take more effort than Serini herself can manage if it takes getting through all dungeons within a timespan. In other words, half the Gates were left out in the open and the other half were made quite difficult but not impossible to safely access.

More importantly, everyone was ultimately on board with the "let's split up, never to meet again" thing. Whta kind of maintenance can a Paladin, a Rogue or a sub-epic sorcerer do on something made by epic and arcane and divine magic? The whole "maintenance required" argument rests on a very shaky foundation. I'm not seeing it.

[Resileaf]

Let's see. Girard's was encased in a pillar.

A very accessible pillar, easily destroyed by a guy with a sword rather than needing a team of excavators (not to mention that wizards and sorcerers would easily be able to use spells to remove the stone if needed).

[danielxcutter]

Oh, I was misremembering, Shojo only talked about why Dorukan put a self-destruct button on his Gate.

Serini did say that she's opposed to destroying her Gate because hers is the last, but honestly I doubt that.

[SlashDash]

The whole "maintenance required" argument rests on a very shaky foundation. I'm not seeing it.

I don't think it's maintenance as much as the ability to destroy the gates. Remember that unlike the other gates, Dorukon's gate was destroyed through a self destruct button that its creator left behind - clearly he assumed there would be a need for him to destroy the gate.

That point was brought up at the trial in Azure City. The scribbles made it intentional so the gates would be accessible to be destroyed if needed.

[Peelee]

Let's see. Girard's was encased in a pillar.

Thin, easily tearable lead sheet (as we see Roy tear it easily).

Dorukan, Soon, and Girard could have built theirs into walls or floors. Serini could have encased hers in the multidimensional stone mountain. They didnt, despite these things being presumably quite simple to do.

So, again, citation? Because aint nobody says that in the comic, to the best of my knowledge. If you can prove me wrong, please feel free to do so.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think it's maintenance as much as the ability to destroy the gates. Remember that unlike the other gates, Dorukon's gate was destroyed through a self destruct button that its creator left behind - clearly he assumed there would be a need for him to destroy the gate.

That point was brought up at the trial in Azure City. The scribbles made it intentional so the gates would be accessible to be destroyed if needed.

Actually, Shojo said they are equally baffled by the self-destruct rune.


Thin, easily tearable lead sheet (as we see Roy tear it easily).

Dorukan, Soon, and Girard could have built theirs into walls or floors. Serini could have encased hers in the multidimensional stone mountain. They didnt, despite these things being presumably quite simple to do.

So, again, citation? Because aint nobody says that in the comic, to the best of my knowledge. If you can prove me wrong, please feel free to do so.

Dorukan's was weird on many levels; Soon's point was not accessibility but (as per Hinjo) some kind of "moral lesson" to rulers and Girard's was built into a wall. Of sorts.

[Wintermoot]

Because the gates exist physically and can't be moved, there's only so much you CAN do to protect them and render them inaccessible.

Someone suggested encasing them in thousands of tons of stone or concrete. Great. I have a spellcaster with fifth level spells who can deal with that. I bet i could do it with second level spells if I really put some effort into it.

Ultimately, that's kind of what Serini did. She encased the gate in some kind of bulwark of dimensional stone that, we don't know the particulars of, but seems to prevent easy teleport, phase, passwall, location, etc like effects to bypass.

Let's say she just stopped there. Encasing it in thousands of tons of dimensional stone. Let's assume that stone shape and other magic for altering stone also doesn't work. Great. Now I'll get to it with a team of enthralled dwarven miners and some alchemical bombs.

This entire dungeon set up IS a way of delaying the person. Because they see it and they think, "aha! I can solve this by dungeon delving" and waste time doing that when they could just blow their way to the center if they weren't distracted.

It's really quite clever.

Ultimately, we have two truths:

Because the gate exists and can't be moved, there is no perfect defense that can't eventually be bypassed or blunt forced through. Each scribbler built the best defense they could with the resources they had with the design philosophy of "destroy what we can, delay what we can't"

This is a self-aware stick figure d&d parady universe that is bound by certain laws of how such a universe works. One such law is "great prizes are guarded by dungeons that can be delved through"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm quite sure that in short order we'll have any number of people claim to have seen this coming without being able to provide any such posting to previous claims. With lots of "it was obvious" and "a child could have seen it" qualifiers.

You know what, I really thought my "it was one-in-three chance, it ain't that impressive to guess right" would be good enough. But since this sounds like a challenge:


Hel, for all we know, the only way to find the rift is to fight your way through all the tunnels.

GW

In your face!

GW

[Wintermoot]

You know what, I really thought my "it was one-in-three chance, it ain't that impressive to guess right" would be good enough. But since this sounds like a challenge:



In your face!

GW

Hadn't even read your post when I posted that. Lol.

No! My beautiful face!

[Peelee]

You know what, I really thought my "it was one-in-three chance, it ain't that impressive to guess right" would be good enough. But since this sounds like a challenge:



In your face!

GW


Put me in Camp Not Misdirection.

We've already done that with Girard; no reason to do it again. And, no, putting a hundred doors up and saying "Pick a door, any door" isn't misdirection. It's flat out telling you what is going on.

Now it could be a shell game, but I also doubt that. No, it's behind one of these doors. And what better way to test physical might than to force somone to fight. Over and over and over again. If you fail at Door Number 22? Well, you obviously weren't really strong enough, now were you?

....

Maybe Kraagor had endurance as a feat and this is Serini's way of honoring THAT. :smallwink:


I think this is the best way anyone has put it so far. I fully agree with this assessment.

Hey, would you look at that, i suspected I was on board with the "fight em all" idea but couldn't find it, and you made it nice and convenient for me to locate!

[lukeskylicker]

I'm quite sure that in short order we'll have any number of people claim to have seen this coming without being able to provide any such posting to previous claims. With lots of "it was obvious" and "a child could have seen it" qualifiers.

A child could have seen it that's what makes twists like these work, they're obvious when you know the answer. It's the tomb of Kraagor the Barbarian, in what universe is the solution anything other than conquer all the dungeons? Wish I was in that one cause I didn't see this coming.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That is an excellent plot twist.

But also, that means that if they hide one of the doors, then Team Evil will fight through all of them and will not find the Gate. Now, how to do that? Painting crosses doesn't work anymore. Illusions to make the door invisible? Come on, that's a quinton we have here. It has True Seeing at will. But there is one weakness in Team Evil's method: they skip the doors they already fought through. Do they remember these doors? Absolutely not, they just go in, look to see if there are monsters left, and go back outside.

That leaves a hole: if the OotS goes through, what, the 13th door from the end and fights through the first room (they can definitely do that. Even if they're not as strong as Xykon+Redcloak+Oona, fighting half a dungeon when Team Evil was doing 5 per day is quite reasonable), then when Team Evil goes there, they skip it. No illusion here, and Pass Without Trace may be doable if they increase Belkar's Wisdom (alternatively, hope they don't ask Oona to scout in every dungeon).

Then, they do all the doors, and notice that the Gate wasn't there. Of course, Redcloak gets angry, and understands that it was all a shell game, eventually finds the backstage, and goes there with Team Evil, just in time for an actual ambush and the final battle.

[Ruck]

Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.

Yeah, but I still want to know how it works.

In particular, though, I want to know if/how bypassing the swap-overs and going backstage affects this.


In support of this, I'll point out that MitD's "much bigger" dad is still unaccounted for. I've long thought that MitD was alone in the jungle because his dad got poached by Serini's monster accumulation for her dungeon.

GW

It's been suggested quite a few times, but I struggle to understand what it would add to the story. Or, to be more precise, I think it would devalue MitD's journey if he finally switched sides because of something to do with his dad, rather than because of his character journey and making the decision he ultimately feels is right regardless of whatever the people around him tell him, either way. I suppose that doesn't preclude him showing up somehow, but I struggle to imagine what real, effective narrative role he could play beyond a reunion.

(Admittedly, a bit of that resistance is because the idea often comes up in the MitD thread, so my first thought is usually "Okay, but how does / would that point to a particular species?")

On another topic, really enjoy Serini immediately recognizing that Vaarsuvius is intelligent enough to have accurately deduced the answer.

[yokyok]

Serini's accessible, but it might take more effort than Serini herself can manage if it takes getting through all dungeons within a timespan.

Serini wouldn't kill the monsters, though. She would just pass through, or herd them somewhere else, if necessary. The monsters only impede everyone else.

[Peelee]

That leaves a hole: if the OotS goes through, what, the 13th door from the end and fights through the first room (they can definitely do that. Even if they're not as strong as Xykon+Redcloak+Oona, fighting half a dungeon when Team Evil was doing 5 per day is quite reasonable), then when Team Evil goes there, they skip it.

Seems like they're going through every door no matter what, and also numbering each one as they do them one-by-one.

[Lexible]

> Goat-smacking fleece folders!

GASP! Such language!

[Lexible]

The right door is always the last place you look.

That is almost always the case no matter what, because one generally stops looking when one finds what one is looking for…even when the last place you look happens to be the first place you look.

Did you mean something like "You have to look at every place, and the door will be at the last place (out of all possible places) you try?"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's been suggested quite a few times, but I struggle to understand what it would add to the story. Or, to be more precise, I think it would devalue MitD's journey if he finally switched sides because of something to do with his dad, rather than because of his character journey and making the decision he ultimately feels is right regardless of whatever the people around him tell him, either way. I suppose that doesn't preclude him showing up somehow, but I struggle to imagine what real, effective narrative role he could play beyond a reunion.

It would continue to be character development. For example, if his dad is more of the kind of monster RC and Xykon where expecting (pre-lowered expectations). Assertive, for example. Or independent-minded, chaffing under Serini's imprisonment (and shortly thereafter under the Quinton's imprisonment). I wouldn't expect his dad to be the catalyst for the heel-face switch, just another stepping stone in his journey towards internalizing that his "friends" are not his friends.

Teal deer, more character development is more good.

GW

[Cazero]

Two questions come to mind.
1) How in the nine hells does team Evil have enough spell slots for all the doors? Surely they will need a break soon?
2) Doesn't bypassing monsters with walls of force like the quinton is doing cancel their progression? Surely you're supposed to defeat all monsters properly like a barbarian would, not stroll around in the safety of a force bubble?

[enq]

It's been suggested quite a few times, but I struggle to understand what it would add to the story. Or, to be more precise, I think it would devalue MitD's journey if he finally switched sides because of something to do with his dad, rather than because of his character journey and making the decision he ultimately feels is right regardless of whatever the people around him tell him, either way. I suppose that doesn't preclude him showing up somehow, but I struggle to imagine what real, effective narrative role he could play beyond a reunion.

I know someone made a similar argument against "What if Belkar and Serini are related". Was that you too? I like your sense for good story over random plot twists.

Also, I want Roy to wake Serini up a third time before this is over. It will be amusing.


1) How in the nine hells does team Evil have enough spell slots for all the doors? Surely they will need a break soon?
:redcloak: This quinton can create a functionally infinite number of forcewalls with just a thought, letting us contain the defenders and walk past them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html).

[Doug Lampert]

A child could have seen it.

Probably not me as a child, and definitely not me as an adult. But I'm sure there are a number of children who would have gone "they have to go through all the dungeons to find the prize!"

I'd considered it and dismissed it, because anything that opens the way after you do all the dungeons has to be added, and why make it POSSIBLE to get to the gate by doing the dungeons when you don't have to make it possible to do it that way?

In hindsight, I can see a reason, there's plenty of informational magic and the oracle out there, someone could have a way to ask, "How can I find Kragor's Gate," that gives a true answere; and if you just bury it in a mountain of dimensional stone, then they get "dig right there", if you put in a bunch of dungeons then they get, "Run the gauntlet".

[Wintermoot]

Two questions come to mind.
1) How in the nine hells does team Evil have enough spell slots for all the doors? Surely they will need a break soon?
2) Doesn't bypassing monsters with walls of force like the quinton is doing cancel their progression? Surely you're supposed to defeat all monsters properly like a barbarian would, not stroll around in the safety of a force bubble?

1> they aren't casting any spells. they are walking in, having the quinton push every thing up against the walls with walls of force, walking to the end, and walking back out. They think they are looking for the gate, they don't realize yet that they are checking off each door to get through "the gauntlet"

2> We don't know yet. My personal guess is the "lock" saying they've been through that dungeon is either tied to stepping over and back again through the swapover, or some other hidden marker point they pass when they get to the last room in any given dungeon. Although "having to kill everything" fits thematically with the Kragorr approved gauntlet, at this point finding that out would cancel out the "peril" of what team evil is doing and I don't think the story will do that. I think we have to assume that team evil's current strategy is working by whatever criteria the dungeons are using to determine one has completed it. Narratively, as Elan would say.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

2) Doesn't bypassing monsters with walls of force like the quinton is doing cancel their progression? Surely you're supposed to defeat all monsters properly like a barbarian would, not stroll around in the safety of a force bubble?

Not if "progression" is measured, for example, by reaching the last room of each tunnel. That would just mean Serini didn't think of someone summoning a creature with infinite force wall spells when she set up the progress check, or even if she did, she didn't know how to check "is every creature I put in the tunnel dead" and ahd to go with the approach she could build.

GW

[Doug Lampert]

It would continue to be character development. For example, if his dad is more of the kind of monster RC and Xykon where expecting (pre-lowered expectations). Assertive, for example. Or independent-minded, chaffing under Serini's imprisonment (and shortly thereafter under the Quinton's imprisonment). I wouldn't expect his dad to be the catalyst for the heel-face switch, just another stepping stone in his journey towards internalizing that his "friends" are not his friends.

Teal deer, more character development is more good.

GW

Another obvious possibility of tMitD's dad shows up is that the Monster has as part of its contribution, convincing dad to not kill the good guys.

Dad could be important, not as a catalyst of a heal-face turn, but as on obstacle that the heal-face turn eliminates.

[Tala Goodweed]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!

[Jay R]

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

Very true. Good point.

["Reddie and Bones"?]


And thus, MiTD actually contributed!

Because his sabotage means that Team Evil has no idea what dungeons were cleared already, and thus, have to start over to ensure that nothing was missed.

Basically, whatever the clock is, he reset it.

Oh, good point. Well done! Go, MitD!


That's only true if Serini knows the order in which they are searching the doors. Are they going left to right? Top to bottom? Counterclockwise in a circle? If the target is a specific door, the search pattern matters. If it is not one particular door, it doesn't.

Correct. But Serini said she could give a time estimate without this information. Therefore this possibility is not the truth.


Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

:vaarsuvius:: Now, there are several intriguing mechanisms by which this could be the case, such as —

I conclude from V being cut off that Rich believes that revealing the mechanism (or possibly that even inventing the mechanism) will not improve the story. So he has V state that it can be done and moves on.

Or possibly, he decides that it will make a great reveal later in the story.

Either way, there is no answer until Rich decides that there is one, decides what it is, and decides to tell us. Until and unless that happens, the final dungeon is revealed by Schrödinger's Mechanism.


I agree with your last sentence. But why would she make it possible for others to make progress? Hey, you beat all the fake dungeons, so I'm going to reward you with access to the real one because...?

I once took a class on stage combat. The instructor demonstrated a move in which the sword went over the opponent's head to attempt to hit the off side. I asked, "How doesn't he just hit the head at that point?" The instructor responded, "Because then the fight would be over."

Why would people provide clues to getting into their treasure?
Why do bad guys build unnecessarily slow and escapable death traps for James Bond?
Why are D&D encounters CR-appropriate?
Why does the Riddler send Batman riddles to his crimes?
Why do only six Old West villains attack the sheriff who has a single six-shooter?
Because the author wants the story to end when it's supposed to.

[Peelee]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!

A gauntlet can also be a long and difficult ordeal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!

A gauntlet also means (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gauntlet) a series of hard tests that must be taken one after another.

GW

[Peelee]

["Reddie and Bones"?]

Probably around 70% of the time, if i say something funny, or nit funny but clearly intended to be, I'm just amusing myself.

Nicknames like that are defo in that big chunk of the pie.

[hroþila]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!
As others have noted, it can mean an ordeal in general, but in this context I'd say it's specifically the gaming term which refers to a challenge where you must beat a series of discrete levels in a single run.

[faustin]

Did Serini ever explain who crafted the espacial displacements of the dungeon? I don't think even an epic rogue like her could have accomplished that on her own.

[Peelee]

Did Serini ever explain who crafted the espacial displacements of the dungeon? I don't think even an epic rogue like her could have accomplished that on her own.

Like Dorukan, she hired contractors (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

[Doug Lampert]

As others have noted, it can mean an ordeal in general, but in this context I'd say it's specifically the gaming term which refers to a challenge where you must beat a series of discrete levels in a single run.

See this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet).

According to Wikipedia.
Guantlet the glove is from French.
Guantlet the ordeal is from Swedish, but the English pronounciation and spelling came to match the glove since that was a familiar term in English.

[bunsen_h]

Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

One possibility is that each dungeon "tags" any person who enters it, by some magical mechanism. The final dungeon becomes available to someone who collects all of the "tags". It doesn't work if a bunch of different people collect some of the "tags" each.

The spell description for Magic Mouth (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMouth.htm) is fairly specific about what it can't distinguish. The original AD&D version gave an example of how it could be used, and specified that it could distinguish age: "Speak only when an octogenarian female carrying a sack of groat clusters sits crosslegged within five feet." That example was removed at some point. But it has never been clear how the spell did its sensing, so it might be possible for a Magic Mouth to be triggered in the presence of "someone who has been through each of the dungeons". And it's possible to hide a dungeon behind a Magic Mouth -- for the opened lips to be a gateway. Or at least that's how I've used it, way back when. :smallsmile:


But obviously Serini has another way in there. I doubt she would force herself to do that.

There's a possibility of a "back door", easy to access, ridiculously implausible to find. "Visit the following sequence of eight doors, in order, without interruption" would do it.


For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

See what others have posted; but also, the "ordeal" version used to be spelled differently: "gantlet" rather than "gauntlet".

[Ruck]

I know someone made a similar argument against "What if Belkar and Serini are related". Was that you too? I like your sense for good story over random plot twists.

Probably, and thanks. I have an aversion to-- or more accurately, just find bad writing-- twists whose only justification is "wouldn't it be cool if" / "wouldn't it BLOW YOUR MIND if" and I don't think they're going to be part of this story.


It would continue to be character development. For example, if his dad is more of the kind of monster RC and Xykon where expecting (pre-lowered expectations). Assertive, for example. Or independent-minded, chaffing under Serini's imprisonment (and shortly thereafter under the Quinton's imprisonment). I wouldn't expect his dad to be the catalyst for the heel-face switch, just another stepping stone in his journey towards internalizing that his "friends" are not his friends.

Teal deer, more character development is more good.

GW

Well, that makes more sense.


That is almost always the case no matter what, because one generally stops looking when one finds what one is looking for…even when the last place you look happens to be the first place you look.

I think that's the joke.

[KorvinStarmast]

Perfect example of "if you don't want to talk to the authorities, dont talk to the authorities. Not 'talk because you don't think you're giving them anything'. DON'T. TALK." And Serini, a rogue, ought to know that.

Why would they? I was questioning the apparent presumption that they did {full clears}, not taking that position.

[Peelee]

And Serini, a rogue, ought to know that.

Sure, but class doesn't dictate personality. Her not opting for Shut The **** Up Friday seems like its based purely on her personality.

[Resileaf]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html), only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling. It may be related to the mechanism that detects if someone has been in every dungeon beforehand.

Or it may not, it all depends on if the Giant thinks the mechanism is important or not. If it is, that thing would be my personal guess.

[HalfTangible]

Interesting.

So having a rogue in charge was itself the shell game.

[Wintermoot]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html), only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling. It may be related to the mechanism that detects if someone has been in every dungeon beforehand.

Or it may not, it all depends on if the Giant thinks the mechanism is important or not. If it is, that thing would be my personal guess.

Oooh, good idea Resileaf!

[Peelee]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html), only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling.

And a nifty design on the floor.

[Jasdoif]

Shut The **** Up FridayIs that related to April Fool's Day?

[Resileaf]

And a nifty design on the floor.

Good eye, I did not notice that. It's also very unique.

[Psyren]

Doubtful. That's just another way to make it possible for someone to get lucky. Like the Order did almost immediately.

Agreed. I think the "Final Dungeon" will appear when all the others are cleared, and it's not the Backstage area where the Order are currently.

She also wouldn't risk bringing the paladins (and luring the Order) closer to the real Gate if she can avoid it, even just to amnesia them, because the entire premise of her distrust was that they have gotten every* other Gate they came across until now destroyed.

*except Lirian's


Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.

You're not, but I can still speculate :smalltongue:


And thus, MiTD actually contributed!

Because his sabotage means that Team Evil has no idea what dungeons were cleared already, and thus, have to start over to ensure that nothing was missed.

Basically, whatever the clock is, he reset it.

It's possible it was being reset anyway - since the dungeons repopulate over time, it suggests that you have to clear them all within a certain window. (And there I go again, being curious about the clearing/Gate-revealing mechanism.)

[Peelee]

Is that related to April Fool's Day?

It is not. Its a video that explains why you dont talk (not nearly the best video, which is SFW and i plug every chance I get, but it has thr benefit of being significantly shorter than sitting in on an L1 class recording, and is a bit pithier).

[KorvinStarmast]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html), only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling. It may be related to the mechanism that detects if someone has been in every dungeon beforehand. A question that strip raises is the monster respawn method. Does Serini every now and again go forth and get some (which seems odd to me, with her general empathy for monsters) or is it some kind of gating mechanism that opens doors to where those kinds of monsters tend to live?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Interesting.

So having a rogue in charge was itself the shell game.

No, the caves is a shell game. A shell game is not a game in which you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right. It is a game that makes you think you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right, but where you in fact have 0 chance of guessing right, because it is not a guessing game at all. Which is what "pick a door, any door" is. And Xykon fell for it hook, line and sinker, since he thought it was all about "getting lucky" when in fact it was a "do all of them before the monster regenerate" or whatever. Had he kept with his original "1-2 doors a night" he'd never have beaten the dungeon, because it is a shell game and he was never going to "get lucky".


It is not. Its a video that explains why you dont talk.

Its a video that explains why you don't talk to the US police without a lawyer (the qualifier is kinda important, I feel. It is not a video recommending monastic vows of silence)

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Shut The **** Up FridayIs that related to April Fool's Day?It is not. Its a video....I am disappointed this was not your autocorrect's doing. Or was it?!



It's possible it was being reset anyway - since the dungeons repopulate over time, it suggests that you have to clear them all within a certain window. (And there I go again, being curious about the clearing/Gate-revealing mechanism.)I'd guess a dynamic timer; one for the whole complex that gets set to its maximum each time a back chamber is first reached, the entrance to the final room isn't revealed until all the (other?) back chambers have been reached, and when the timer expires everything goes back to the "unreached" state.

[HalfTangible]

No, the caves is a shell game. A shell game is not a game in which you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right. It is a game that makes you think you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right, but where you in fact have 0 chance of guessing right, because it is not a guessing game at all. Which is what "pick a door, any door" is. And Xykon fell for it hook, line and sinker, since he thought it was all about "getting lucky" when in fact it was a "do all of them before the monster regenerate" or whatever. Had he kept with his original "1-2 doors a night" he'd never have beaten the dungeon, because it is a shell game and he was never going to "get lucky".

I think you missed the point I was getting at. The main reason that the Order decided there might be a shell game involved here is that the dungeon is being overseen by a rogue. But it was in honor of a barbarian, so instead of a rogue's shell game, they got a barbarian's gauntlet.

First layer (dungeon at face value): Pick a door, any door.
Second layer (it's a rogue trying to trick you): Bypass the doors, because none of them are right.
"Real" layer (in honor of a barbarian): Actually you have to visit *every* door.

[Psepha]

Ohhhh, is THAT why V detected both conjuration and an element of divination magic when they examined the trap on the door? Is the divination magic there to monitor your progress through each dungeon and track when you've done each one?

And then when it registers you've done all the rest, the last one instead takes you to the final dungeon?

[mjasghar]

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

Even more ironically the MitD would only have had to do it once - which wouldn’t have been caught out by Wrongeye.

[OvisCaedo]

Despite the quick dismissal of V's attempt to explain possible mechanisms, I feel like it will actually matter quite a bit. Not in any "how would you make this in the game rules" sense, but "What is the mechanism actually checking for" sense. Though I suppose the implication of impending doom means that whatever the check is, Team Evil will be satisfying it, and maybe it will never need to be delved into.

[Theris]

It took me a while to understand why Vaarsuvius' comment was supposed to be extremely smart. Then I realised I had read Serini's comment as '"They'll find the entrance in the final dungeon"...

[dancrilis]

I don't understand, going through all doors will reveal the location of the actual dungeon, or allow it to be accessed? How? And most importantly, why? Serini must have had to actually put in the effort of putting in place such a mechanism... To make it easier to reach the Gate? But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.


Lirian attached hers to creatures that could break it in case of an attack.


Dorukan had a self destruct on his, Soon had his in an (conceptually) easy to access place (and seemed isolated from the rest of his group), Girard had his with a whole family who likely knew where it was.

It is possible that all (or nearly all) wanted a method of accessing and destroying their gate in case of emergency and that Serini is no real different designed hers.

At the time they designed the gates they knew a few things a) how to find rifts b) bad guys wanted access to rifts.
It is possible they were worried about bad guys finding the rifts in the same manner (whatever manner that was 'detect rift?') they did (sealed and gated or not) and exploiting the gates.

[Yuki Akuma]

*except Lirian's

They didn't come across Lirian's gate at all, Psyren. :smallwink:

[Dellmarcus]

{scrubbed}

[Tzardok]

Ohhhh, is THAT why V detected both conjuration and an element of divination magic when they examined the trap on the door? Is the divination magic there to monitor your progress through each dungeon and track when you've done each one?

And then when it registers you've done all the rest, the last one instead takes you to the final dungeon?

Not necessarily. The conjuration thing is there to transport people (teleportation is a conjuration effect), the divination is propably there to show the "other side" of the portal. On the other hand, there could be another divinatory effect in there that does what you suggest.

[Jasdoif]

Not if "progression" is measured, for example, by reaching the last room of each tunnel. That would just mean Serini didn't think of someone summoning a creature with infinite force wall spells when she set up the progress check, or even if she did, she didn't know how to check "is every creature I put in the tunnel dead" and ahd to go with the approach she could build.I would add that, presumably, the only reason the Gate area has an access point is because Serini wants to be able to access it; and she probably doesn't want to be killing all her monsters in that situation.

[Rinazina]

I wonder which is the refresh period for a speed run.. Because at this point Oona and other bugbears should have already explored all the doors.

[Kancsar]

New comic is up.

Bravo!!! Love this solution of valley as gauntlet and very glad to see V find the solution.

High level Wizards tend to screw up games because of their powerful spells AND their high intelligence making enemy plans transparent and therefore substantially easier to beat (one reason, I think, the villains are a high wisdom Cleric and a high charisma Sorcerer).

[Ruck]

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.


["Reddie and Bones"?]

Teddy Redbones? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edhlv9hRUik)

[Doug Lampert]

I would add that, presumably, the only reason the Gate area has an access point is because Serini wants to be able to access it; and she probably doesn't want to be killing all her monsters in that situation.

I'm betting she has a bypass, but put in the "finish all the dungeons gets you there" feature to allow informational magic to guide people to her gauntlet rather than guiding them to the gate.

[Peelee]

I'm betting she has a bypass, but put in the "finish all the dungeons gets you there" feature to allow informational magic to guide people to her gauntlet rather than guiding them to the gate.

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

[Resileaf]

It might very well be that Serini never intended to have a bypass. This is Kraagor's gate after all, not Serini's gate. Why would Kraagor want a shortcut?

[Shale]

Even more ironically the MitD would only have had to do it once - which wouldn’t have been caught out by Wrongeye.

Okay, this is hilarious. He was so close to the perfect plan!

[Ruck]

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

Wow, I had just forgotten that people were seriously saying that.

[Malfarian]

New comic is up.

Brilliant as always.

Thank you.
--MAL

[Jasdoif]

I'm betting she has a bypass, but put in the "finish all the dungeons gets you there" feature to allow informational magic to guide people to her gauntlet rather than guiding them to the gate.Certainly possible....though now I'm wondering how difficult she (in her youth) thought it would be to physically go to each chamber, versus the risk of divination magic revealing the existence of a bypass.

[Duncun]

I wonder which is the refresh period for a speed run.. Because at this point Oona and other bugbears should have already explored all the doors.

I theorize that they have not done all the dungeons. I think the refresh is fast enough that they would be able to do a subset over and over. They would do that instead of having to go to the furthest one away from their camp, because there would be no need. They are only doing it for the food. Why go out of the way?

[Izandai]

THERE'S that 18 (or more) intelligence! V's really been shining this arc. You love to see it.

[Psyren]

They didn't come across Lirian's gate at all, Psyren. :smallwink:

Right, which is why they didn't blow it up, like I said :smallsmile:


Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

Since we're here again...

The fact that all you have to do to reach the FD is clear every dungeon, means that our concerns about the people attacking the dungeons getting stronger by doing so were right. Redcloak is beating the Gauntlet with a single 9th-level spell. Had he arrived there not being able to cast any, he definitely would after a couple of attempts.

(And that's putting aside that we don't even know what the boss monster in the FD is - but given that the lesser dungeons even contain epic magic items, they're likely making whatever it is easier to face.)

[Peelee]

Since we're here again...

The fact that all you have to do to reach the FD is clear every dungeon, means that our concerns about the people attacking the dungeons getting stronger by doing so were right. Redcloak is beating the Gauntlet with a single 9th-level spell.

Im a bit confused here, as I never said they wouldn't get stronger? I said that Serini is objectively not helping them via noninterference, since they could have gone all they wanted without triggering the gate reveal mechanism due to MitD. Hell, for all we know she may have painted a door or two herself had MitD not done that, which would fit well with her non-confrontational stance. And Redcloak alrrady arrived with 9th level spells, so unless you want to claim she should have sought him out before, say, the seige of Azure City, im not sure how thats in any way relevant.

And hey, we're still not at the end of the story, maybe she has some other tricks up her sleeve. Because she doesn't seem to be opposed to hindering them, she is opposed to confrontation with them. From anyone. Which does not equate to "helping them".

[Psyren]

Im a bit confused here, as I never said they wouldn't get stronger? I said that Serini is objectively not helping them via noninterference, since they could have gone all they wanted without triggering the gate reveal mechanism due to MitD. Hell, for all we know she may have painted a door or two herself had MitD not done that, which would fit well with her non-confrontational stance. And Redcloak alrrady arrived with 9th level spells, so unless you want to claim she should have sought him out before, say, the seige of Azure City, im not sure how thats in any way relevant.

And hey, we're still not at the end of the story, maybe she has some other tricks up her sleeve. Because she doesn't seem to be opposed to hindering them, she is opposed to confrontation with them. From anyone. Which does not equate to "helping them".

My criticism of Serini back then is the effort it took the Order to actually knock some sense into her and get her to realize she needs to help them to stand a chance. I stand by that criticism.

As for Redcloak already having 9ths - sure, but if even Xykon was getting XP from those dungeons, Redcloak definitely was, which makes paying for powerhouse spells like Gate even easier.

[Precure]

Calling it now: After they entered all the dungeons, the real dungeon will reveal itself right under the statue.

[Peelee]

My criticism of Serini back then is the effort it took the Order to actually knock some sense into her and get her to realize she needs to help them to stand a chance. I stand by that criticism.
Ok? I didnt say anything about your criticism, so it's a bit odd that you're arguing against me because you stand by your criticism.

As for Redcloak already having 9ths - sure, but if even Xykon was getting XP from those dungeons, Redcloak definitely was, which makes paying for powerhouse spells like Gate even easier.
From a mechanical standpoint, sure. From a story standpoint? Doesnt natter at all. Redcloak would have enough XP to cast that spell regardless. Or the XP requirement would be removed entirely. The author doesnt care about mechanical bookkeeppiinngg minutae, so why should I?

[Metastachydium]

Calling it now: After they entered all the dungeons, the real dungeon will reveal itself right under the statue.

[Red eyes, take shelter.] THERE IS NO STATUE!


II said that Serini is objectively not helping them via noninterference, since they could have gone all they wanted without triggering the gate reveal mechanism due to MitD.

Oh, and that's not true at all. That "objective certainty" hangs on the assumption that Redcloak wouldn't have ever figured out that errors were made (deliberately or otherwise) which, given that he never trusted the lottery method to be effective (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) and told Oona later that the surprising thing would have been nobody screwing up on their team (or screwing it up for them from without) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html), is a huge stretch.

[dancrilis]

The author doesnt care about mechanical bookkeeppiinngg minutae, so why should I?

Then you are letting the roleplayers win.

Perhaps you should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if to you want to be on the side of telling stories in fantasy settings or on the side of arguing about rules for fantasy settings.

[Peelee]

Oh, and that's not true at all. That "objective certainty" hangs on the assumption that Redcloak wouldn't have ever figured out that errors were made (deliberately or otherwise) which, given that he never trusted the lottery method to be effective (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) and told Oona later that the surprising thing would have been nobody screwing up on their team (or screwing it up for them from without) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html), is a huge stretch.

And the story is over so we know for a fact she would take no action whatsoever, yes.

ETA:Also disregarding that your first linked comic does not say what you claim it says. "effective" and "efficient" are not synonyms.

[Metastachydium]

And the story is over so we know for a fact she would take no action whatsoever, yes.

Well, we do know that
1. she would have refrained from taking any kind of decisive action, because she told us she would (for perfectly good reasons); and
2. were it not for V, she would have just left Team Evil run away with the initiative while she naps,
so we are on the same page so far as the exact validity of theories predicated on events in possible futures that will never be realised are concerned, but what we do have makes me think "Serini would refrain from acting" is certainly not a bet less safe than "Redcloak wouldn't have ever noticed".


ETA:Also disregarding that your first linked comic does not say what you claim it says. "effective" and "efficient" are not synonyms.

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/effective). One of those.

[Peelee]

Well, we do know that
1. she would have refrained from taking any kind of decisive action, because she told us she would (for perfectly good reasons); and
2. were it not for V, she would have just left Team Evil run away with the initiative while she naps,
so we are on the same page so far as the exact validity of theories predicated on events in possible futures that will never be realised are concerned, but what we do have makes me think "Serini would refrain from acting" is certainly not a bet less safe than "Redcloak wouldn't have ever noticed".

She told us she would have refrained from taking any confrontational action. Every time the Order oressed her, it was for direct confrontation, which we know she wants to avoid as much as possible.


That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/effective). One of those.

Fine, "interchangeable". Better? Redcloak wanted a more orderly method, and didn't say anything the way you characterized it

[Metastachydium]

She told us she would have refrained from taking any confrontational action. Every time the Order oressed her, it was for direct confrontation, which we know she wants to avoid as much as possible.

Note that I used the phrase "decisive action". Also note that Team Evil solving the game is happening now and she did say she'd really rather continue her nap, so there's that.


Fine, "interchangeable". Better?

No. That's context-dependent.


Redcloak wanted a more orderly method, and didn't say anything the way you characterized it

And in this context? I don't see the contradiction. With due respect, Sir, this might not be a Happy Flower problem.

EDIT: Also, I could find the strip where she says she can't do anything about Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1254.html), but not the one where she says she can't fight him, but she can do stuff regardless. Care to help me put?

[Yendor]

Calling it now: After they entered all the dungeons, the real dungeon will reveal itself right under the statue.

Part of me wants to see the damn statue addressed in-comic, just so Serini can express her undoubtedly colourful opinion of the idea.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/effective). One of those.Efficiency and effectiveness are not the same measure, particularly from the point of view of aircraft performance (to use but one example). With that said, with efficiency improving one usually accrues the benefit of cost effectiveness, but that's only part of the picture.

[Syncrogti]

I love Sunny, she is so cute in her mannerisms.

[fuschiawarrior]

Good comic.

Serini dialogue in panel 4 implies Team Evil will find the entrance but not necessarily will be able to enter the final dungeon. That would explain why, besides her world-view, she doesn't seem worried about what TE is doing, she knows that there are more safety measures to the Gate.

[Jasdoif]

That's a lowball, but okay, I'll take it. Lexicography seems to think synonym doesn't mean what you think it means. Or that you're probably wrong (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/effective). One of those.I don't think virtuoso is a synonym for effective, so I'm going to guess that the linked thesaurus groups words by similar meaning, rather than being restricted to synonyms.

[Psyren]

Ok? I didnt say anything about your criticism, so it's a bit odd that you're arguing against me because you stand by your criticism.

My point is that nobody said she was helping Xykon because she knew extra doors were being marked.


From a mechanical standpoint, sure. From a story standpoint? Doesnt natter at all. Redcloak would have enough XP to cast that spell regardless. Or the XP requirement would be removed entirely. The author doesnt care about mechanical bookkeeppiinngg minutae, so why should I?

And from a story standpoint all those other gates needed to be destroyed too to forge the Order into who they needed to be to ultimately win, so her judgement of/unwillingness to assist them was still misplaced.

[Metastachydium]

Efficiency and effectiveness are not the same measure, particularly from the point of view of aircraft performance

Oh no! So Redcloak's vision with the goblin dirigibles… Will it– [gasp!] will it never come to be?


I don't think virtuoso is a synonym for effective, so I'm going to guess that the linked thesaurus groups words by similar meaning, rather than being restricted to synonyms.

It kind of opens with "as in efficient", though, and the overlap is significant enough to warrant using the term synonym regardless. (Also, virtuoso appears with a 'limited relevance' background under the heading of "synonyms and similar words").

[Peelee]

Note that I used the phrase "decisive action". Also note that Team Evil solving the game is happening now and she did say she'd really rather continue her nap, so there's that.



No. That's context-dependent.



And in this context? I don't see the contradiction. With due respect, Sir, this might not be a Happy Flower problem.

EDIT: Also, I could find the strip where she says she can't do anything about Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1254.html), but not the one where she says she can't fight him, but she can do stuff regardless. Care to help me put?
Imean we're just not going to agree on this. I would never use efficient to mean what you extrapolate it to mean in this context and i would never read it as such.

Also, the incredibly person who doesn't tell the Order he rplans is incredibly unhelpful and isnt telling the Order her plans? Say it ain't so!

My point is that nobody said she was helping Xykon because she knew extra doors were being marked.


And my point is we didnt know that was relevant to being an absolute stopgap to the plan they were running and as such she was not helping them, and people without this knowledge claimed she was helping them.

This whole "making absolute affirnative declarations while having imperfect knowledge of what's going on" thing is turning into a running theme for me here, it seems.

[Metastachydium]

Imean we're just not going to agree on this. I would never use efficient to mean what you extrapolate it to mean in this context and i would never read it as such.

No, seriously, I need to know: what am I extrapolating from the use of the qualifier in question?


Also, the incredibly person who doesn't tell the Order he rplans is incredibly unhelpful and isnt telling the Order her plans? Say it ain't so!

?

[Laurentio III]

Just want to say that if OoTS was a tabletop D&D adventure module, most D&D players' team I know would have done every single door anyway, because XP are more valuable than anything, and for the off-chance of a magic treasure. I can hear them saying "Oh, here is the portal, but there are still a couple door left, lets backtrack!".

And we don't even want to consider a computer RPG. In that case, "100% completation" is ethically necessary. Even in a speed run.

[Jasdoif]

It kind of opens with "as in efficient", though, and the overlap is significant enough to warrant using the term synonym regardless. (Also, virtuoso appears with a 'limited relevance' background under the heading of "synonyms and similar words").If you like; but that you're now defending using such a thesaurus, instead of using a dictionary, suggests weakness in your position.

[Ruck]

The linked definition of "effective" is "producing or capable of producing a desired result."

And if you follow through and read on "efficient," it "suggests an acting or a potential for action or use in such a way as to avoid loss or waste of energy in effecting, producing, or functioning."

That's the difference.

[Peelee]

No, seriously, I need to know: what am I extrapolating from the use of the qualifier in question?

Redcloak thinks the plan is not efficient. He wants it more structured and ordered instead of being random. This fits with his Lawful/careful/nerdy personality. He objects to it being random.

Redcloak does not think the plan is not effective. At no point does he think it will not work because if the order they are doing it in, picking random doors and marking them. The order has no effect on the efficacy as far as he is concerned, and if it does, he does not voice this opinion.

I'm very surprised I have to delineate this, really.

[Metastachydium]

If you like; but that you're now defending using such a thesaurus, instead of using a dictionary, suggests weakness in your position.

I'm not sure I follow.


The linked definition of "effective" is "producing or capable of producing a desired result."

And if you follow through and read on "efficient," it "suggests an acting or a potential for action or use in such a way as to avoid loss or waste of energy in effecting, producing, or functioning."

That's the difference.

In particular context, yes. Sticking with the dictionary, on the other hand, we get 'producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect' (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effective) versus 'productive of desired effects' (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efficient) (with an added especially clause, to the effect of your restriction regarding loss/waste).


Redcloak thinks the plan is not efficient. He wants it more structured and ordered instead of being random. This fits with his Lawful/careful/nerdy personality. He objects to it being random.

Redcloak does not think the plan is not effective. At no point does he think it will not work because if the order they are doing it in, picking random doors and marking them. The order has no effect on the efficacy as far as he is concerned, and if it does, he does not voice this opinion.

Redcloak is annoyed that they are not proceeding in a methodical, "scientific" way, which would make it more reliable and easier to oversee. It's not just something triggering his OCPD or whatever. Later he explicitly clarifies it is just a dumb mess that lets details slide, besides hampering speed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html).


I'm very surprised I have to delineate this, really.

No comment, dude. Just… No comment.

[Precure]

Just want to say that if OoTS was a tabletop D&D adventure module, most D&D players' team I know would have done every single door anyway, because XP are more valuable than anything, and for the off-chance of a magic treasure. I can hear them saying "Oh, here is the portal, but there are still a couple door left, lets backtrack!".

And we don't even want to consider a computer RPG. In that case, "100% completation" is ethically necessary. Even in a speed run.

From what we've seen so far, most adventuring parties on OotS would do the same.

[Metastachydium]

From what we've seen so far, most adventuring parties on OotS would do the same.

And then try to grab the Gate (it's a big magical crystal; it's sure worth a lot!) and walk off with it, probably.

[Psyren]

And my point is we didnt know that was relevant to being an absolute stopgap to the plan they were running and as such she was not helping them, and people without this knowledge claimed she was helping them.

Fair enough - I think my position was more "she's not doing enough to oppose Team Evil" (which she could have done by helping rather than opposing the Order) than it was "she's helping Team Evil." I was still (very) annoyed with her at the time, but I didn't think she was malevolent - just nowhere near as competent a guardian as she thought herself to be.

But I will point out that the stopgap wasn't absolute either. The Order's presence merely accelerated the conclusion Redcloak would have arrived at anyway, that extra doors were being marked and they needed to speed up.

[Blatt]

I speculate some sort of quasi sentient portal at the far end of a random dungeon. When adventurers approach it teleports to a random other unsearched dungeon. It only stays still if there is nowhere to move to. Possibly S would have 99 henchmen enter dungeons and then when only one remained she would enter the 100th knowing the portal would be at the far end of it.

[Peelee]

Fair enough - I think my position was more "she's not doing enough to oppose Team Evil" (which she could have done by helping rather than opposing the Order) than it was "she's helping Team Evil." I was still (very) annoyed with her at the time, but I didn't think she was malevolent - just nowhere near as competent a guardian as she thought herself to be.
Oh, i completely agree. Granted, she does have reasons for that, but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

But I will point out that the stopgap wasn't absolute either. The Order's presence merely accelerated the conclusion Redcloak would have arrived at anyway, that extra doors were being marked and they needed to speed up.
Also agreed! My sole issue, and what really annoyed me, was people claiming that she was helping Team Evil, which we now see is not the case. She wasn't actively hindering them (and its possible she may have secretly marked a door or done something else passive had MitD not already been throwing wrenches in gears), but she also wasnt helping them. She was just trying to avoid direct conflict, especially among the only people who she knows have actively destroyed or attempted to desteoy the Gates. Which isnt entirely unreasonable, even if it is annoying.

[Jasdoif]

If you like; but that you're now defending using such a thesaurus, instead of using a dictionary, suggests weakness in your position.I'm not sure I follow.Instead of a source saying they're synonyms; it's a source saying they're "synonyms or similar words", followed by claiming the "similar words" part doesn't apply. It's the kind of thing that's often done when ambiguity is favorable to a claim, which of course is when clarity is unfavorable; such as if no more definitive source exists because the claim has no factual support.

This of course isn't automatically the case, and I see you're using dictionary pages now so if it ever did apply it doesn't now....


Honestly, I was hoping for things to lead to an interesting account of at least one of the following:

Shared history between "efficient" and "effective"
The "especially with little waste" meaning of "efficient" arising as a ubiquitous connotation, to the point that it's practically the definition in certain fields(?)
"Orderly and efficient" being used as a phrase so frequently that the words get blurred, as when Redcloak said "efficient" when he clearly(?) meant "orderly" and Peelee was still able to extract "orderly" from it

...which is more likely to happen with stronger methodology (and less likely to happen if a side is chosen, though I probably spoiled my view that with the last bullet point there).

[Finagle]

Roh Ruh. Clock's a ticking.

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

[Tzardok]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

What do you wanna bet that the gods don't pull the plug as soon as Team Evil reach and secure the gate?

[HalfTangible]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.


What do you wanna bet that the gods don't pull the plug as soon as Team Evil reach and secure the gate?

This, plus once Team Evil reaches the gate, fighting them off of it becomes much more problematic. One stray fireball, one nat 1 on an attack roll, one summoning in the wrong position...

[Aquillion]

Dorukan had a self destruct on his, Soon had his in an (conceptually) easy to access place (and seemed isolated from the rest of his group), Girard had his with a whole family who likely knew where it was.It's worth pointing out that Soon's gate was where it was for very specific reasons. Yes, wanting to be able to destroy it was probably part of it, but also, he wanted it to be heavily protected by mundane defenses and social institutions, without giving away its existence or location. If he put it somewhere else and tried to throw a bunch of defenses on it, everyone in the city (even ones who don't know about the gate) would realize there was something important there.

The only way he could get everything he wanted was by placing it somewhere that would make it logical to heavily-defend, eg. the throne room. This even meant he could an anti-scrying ward over it without running into the problem of "well, it's obviously where the anti-scrying ward is", and have a bunch of specialized magical defenses whose presence wasn't a red flag that something important was there (because obviously the throne room would have a huge pile of magical defenses.)

Basically, it meant he could have most of Azure City as a defenses around it while still keeping its location a secret.

(And not incidentally, while he was alive, it allowed him to personally defend the gate - something that would be important to a Paladin, as well as being tactically wise given how strong and experienced he was - while still running the city and establishing an order of Paladins for future protection. And he even had a solution for what happens when he dies!)

[Peelee]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual. In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.

A.) Not how Sending works.
2.) Not many high level casters, and we've seen that people aren't necessarily willing to come help just foe the lulz.

[brian 333]

Serini doesn't need a secret entrance to her gate because she's already been through all of the doors. Any door leads her to the final one.

For all who guessed, "All the doors," you are now on my list of people I'm jealous of. I want to say I also thought so, but I can't remember posting anything like that.

I will go out on a limb and say that I suspect going through the swap over is enough. Go through all the swapovers, and when you turn around to exit you go to the final room. The stuff at the dungeon's end is bait.

[JonahFalcon]

"Goat-smacking fleece folders"?

Ok, Serini, before you explain the dungeon, explain your expletives.


Why are you all missing the real highlight of this strip? The soup isn't done cooking, much less consumed, so Roy can in fact get rid of his mild hunger problem.

Also, that is a lot of soup.

Belkar's adorable chef's hat makes up for it.

[RatElemental]

Called It.

I can't find the post where I did, and I spent a good hour looking through every post I've made in this subforum, but it was something about there being a lever or something in every dungeon you have to pull to reveal the real one.

[danielxcutter]

A.) Not how Sending works.
2.) Not many high level casters, and we've seen that people aren't necessarily willing to come help just foe the lulz.

I wonder why V’s master wouldn’t, or at least why V wouldn’t think it’d work. I think the IFCC’s alternative suggestion partly hinged on them coming to help.

[SlashDash]

I don't get it. Why is there a "clock". Even if Team Evil finds the gate - so what? They have to sit there in a trance for weeks while they do the ritual.

Or in the course of fighting whatever defenses are there, they might blow up the gate. You know, like they did with Lirian's gate? Accident or not, it's not a risk anyone wants to take - especially the gods.



In that time they're sitting ducks. OOTS can send to every cleric and magic-user on the plane to gate in allies.
There are barely any high level clerics that can help them. Roy even points that out in the pyramid - Remember how much trouble they had to get through to resurrect Roy?

Who else can they go to?

Master Aarindarius is the only other high level character we've seen the party mention that might have a shot here if they thought he was capable of fighting the dragon.

Who else do we got? Julio? Hardly a threat to Xykon
Tarquin and his gang? They'll obviously come back in some way or another after that cliffhanger, but I doubt anyone in the party would think of calling them.


Besides, obviously this is the story about this particular party and suddenly teleporting lots of other high level casters to do their work for them would cheapen the story.



Serini doesn't need a secret entrance to her gate because she's already been through all of the doors. Any door leads her to the final one.


The story requires there to be another way, because that means if team evil makes it through all the doors, our heroes would be unable to chase them. And since we specifically get to see that team evil isn't killing the monsters, the party can't possibly rush through all the doors and survive what's in there.

The other option is that the heroes go to stop team evil before they finish all the doors. But that would put us too close to the end of the book as we are far from there.

[Finagle]

What do you wanna bet that the gods don't pull the plug as soon as Team Evil reach and secure the gate?

No bet. Keep your 10 gold. That hasn't been stated or even alluded to in-comic. But it is a fact that the ritual takes weeks.


they might blow up the gate. You know, like they did with Lirian's gate?

Wouldn't happen twice. Bad storytelling. Nice unmarked spoiler, by the way.


A.) Not how Sending works.

What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.


2.) Not many high level casters, and we've seen that people aren't necessarily willing to come help just foe the lulz.

It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.


Master Aarindarius is the only other high level character we've seen the party mention that might have a shot here if they thought he was capable of fighting the dragon.

Hell, call all the dragons. Look at how pissed they were that a quarter of all black dragons met the same fate.

[Alex Warlorn]

*plays Zelda's puzzle solved music*

[Kish]

Wouldn't happen twice. Bad storytelling. Nice unmarked spoiler, by the way.

I'm sure Rich cries himself to sleep every night knowing you don't like his storytelling.


What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.

What a ridiculous thing to say.


It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.
What did Roy say to Wrecan about why he didn't explain that the world was in danger of being destroyed, again?

And you have the Order sending to...dozens, hundreds of spellcasters they don't know (somehow) and making an airtight 25-words-or-less case that those spellcasters need to drop everything and rush to the North Pole.

...you know, it shows amazing chutzpah for you to describe something else as "bad storytelling" in the same breath.

[hroþila]

It's a bit weird to suggest that Team Evil wouldn't blow up a gate twice because that'd be bad storytelling, considering that two gates have been intentionally blown up by the defenders so far. But also, no one is implying that's what's going to happen in the actual story? The discussion is not about out-of-universe storytelling, but about the in-universe rationale behind the idea that it would be bad if Team Evil reaches the gate.

(I would also like to add that there's no indication that Redcloak and Xykon would be in a trance during the ritual, or in any way defenseless)

[tanonx]

Well, that puts paid to the "it's really under the statue" nonsense at long last :D

By which we mean the entrance to the Final Dungeon is under the statue's base, which slides open when you walk back out of the last dungeon door. Naturally. Perfectly reasonable expectation.

Speaking of which... is there any reason you can't just disable the trap to one of the doors and let Team Evil ransack the back room to their empty ribcage's content? Even if they fall back on Cleric options to find out about those traps, they're poorly equipped to re-arm one.

Sure, they'll eventually magic their way into it. But that'll never not be true.

[Psychronia]

A gauntlet, huh? Clever and to the point.
I guess that means MitD did manage to stall Team Evil a little then. Or at least...they would have.

If I were Sereni, I'd mix in the shell game as well by having one of the required doors to the dungeon be hidden as well. Maybe keep it a distance away, or maybe just disguise it as something that doesn't seem like a door. Preferably both, but it depends on the mechanism behind the whole thing.

[Fish]

This is a good reveal, but I think we are missing an even better one.

The planar ally will only assist in clearing the dungeons behind the doors in this valley. We now have a strong possibility that the swap-over trick (or some other mechanism) is being used to reveal a different dungeon at a specific moment. That dungeon is behind a door, and said door may not be in this valley.

[Sigako]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

[gatemansgc]

let's say there are 100 doors. I Know there are more, but for the sake of the explanation, it doesn't matter. Let's say there are 1 hundred

We know they have explored 27 of them already, at a rate of 7 minutes per door. Starting at end A and working toward end B.

1. If the gate was behind ONE specific door, say, door 50, then Serini's rough estimate would be "they will find the door in 161 more minutes." which could then be fed into a formula to figure out what door it's behind. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.

2. If the gate isn't there at all, then Serini wouldn't be able to give an estimate beyond "some point beyond another 511 minutes. Regardless, this has been removed as an option.

2.5. The unspoken option. the gate is randomly shifted and could be located behind any random door. Serini wouldn't be able to give an estimate and she says she can. So that removes that option.

3. Minimum number. the gate COULD be located behind any door. In this case Serini's estimate would have to be "within the next 7 minutes" because she doesn't know if they will find it or not. And, as V pointed out, they would statistically have already found it.

4. Maximum number. 511 minutes. That's the only remaining "rough estimate" that Serini could provide (after she herself removed the option that it WAS behind a specific singular door) so that's how V deduced it. The entrance to the final dungeon can only be revealed after all dungeons are explored.

thank you for mathing this i was confused!

[Windscion]

... is there any reason you can't just disable the trap to one of the doors and let Team Evil ransack the back room to their empty ribcage's content? Even if they fall back on Cleric options to find out about those traps, they're poorly equipped to re-arm one.

This would depend, to some extent, on the definition of "all." Possibly disabling a teleporter drops the count by one and you still end up opening the final dungeon. We don't know, because we don't know how much priority was placed upon being able to enter the FD via a back door.

[Ruck]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

The only way to get to the final dungeon, where the Gate is located, is to go through all the other dungeons.

[HalfTangible]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

There is no singular correct door. Instead, to reach the final dungeon (the area where the gate is located), you must enter all of the doors.

It's not clear yet whether you need to just reach the end of each door's mini dungeon, or kill everything inside within a certain period of time.

[Kamunami]

Not sure if someone's said this already, but I think the most reasonable theory is that you don't have to enter any dungeon proper, you just go in and trigger the swapover, then leave.

If they wanted to make the gates completely inaccessible, it'd be a lot easier than putting them behind some crazy test. They obviously want to be able to reach the gates if necessary, for some unforeseen emergency. But then, imagine if the only way to reach this one was to explore and clear out dozens and dozens of dungeons, it'd take way too long! Even made for a barbarian, it may as well BE inaccessible if the dungeons need clearing. There has to be a relatively fast way to get through ONLY if you know the answer, so I think stepping inside is the only necessary bit.

Of course, the final door probably does have some biggest and baddest encounter behind it before the gate.

[BriarHobbit]

We know. The heroes know and now V's tenants (the Demons Three) know.

[Tzardok]

No bet. Keep your 10 gold. That hasn't been stated or even alluded to in-comic. But it is a fact that the ritual takes weeks.

Hasn't been stated or alluded in comic? Oh sorry, I must've dreamt this whole conversation about how the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets his hands on the gate. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1256.html)

[The MunchKING]

I have to admit. I did not see that one coming. But it makes sense now that it has been revealed.

On the other hand I called it way back when, when I said that was exactly how I would have made the dungeon based on my understanding of Final Fantasy dungeons. You had to go to end of every dungeon and flip a hidden switch or something to unlock the real treasure room, in this case, the Gate.


I'm quite sure that in short order we'll have any number of people claim to have seen this coming without being able to provide any such posting to previous claims. With lots of "it was obvious" and "a child could have seen it" qualifiers.

Oh dang, you're going to want REFERENCES? Now I've got to look up all my old posts...

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609915-OOTS-1198-The-Discussion-Thread&p=24439574&highlight=gate#post24439574

Me responding to Bacon Elemental when they suggested this scenario.

AH here’s an earlier one where I spell it out.




Originally Posted by Ruck

Interesting question. In the story of the Gates as told, Serini built her Gate to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might. I wouldn't be surprised if it also included an element of deception (as Serini is a rogue), or something else that might make the gate less straightforward than it appears-- although I would reject the idea that the Gate is hidden somewhere that isn't behind fearsome monsters, just that there's more to it than that.
My idea on the subject was if you have enough money to build a mountain out of magic-unopbtainium with plot powers to keep all your monsters in, why would you put a switch or the gate at the end of ONE tunnel, where in theory someone could get lucky and go down that one first and find the switch?

I would put a switch at the end of EVERY tunnel, and they ALL have to be flipped (maybe into a specific pattern) to reveal the Gate. That also fits with the "Brute force is what Kraagor would have respected" philosophy, while because you HID the switches at the end of each and didn't write down that this was the gimmick, lets your Rogue chops do some work protecting the Gate too.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?579840-OOTS-1154-The-Discussion-Thread&p=23680723&highlight=gate#post23680723


Ooop, and here’s another one



My idea was if you're going to build a monument to strength and enurance and add a bit of rougish cunning, why hide the gate behind ONE tunnel, and make the possibility of guessing right a thing at all, when you can hide it behind EVERY tunnel?

The idea would be at the end of each tunnel is a hidden switch or something, and only if ALL of them are found and flipped would the Gate be revealed. That way you have to not just be lucky and stronger than the monsters in ONE section, but stronger than all the monsters in ALL the sections. Or powerful enough to level a magic-blocking super-mountain. Either or.

and best of all if you didn't KNOW about the switches you could try every door (Possibly multiple times if you didn't paint them like team evil) before you realize there's something you're not getting. And with monsters strong enough to level an already Epic Lich, pretty much anything less would have died long before.


EDIT it's basically the opposite of the Shell game, Haley mentioned, and thus demonstrates strength AND brains will be needed to beat it. That said it's probably expensive, which is why they ran out of money before the wizard got his water-room.
Last edited by The MunchKING; 2018-05-03 at 10:45 AM.


For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.


A gauntlet is also a term for a punishment where the offender would run between lines of people armed with sticks that beat him for his offenses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet

[Sigako]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!

Found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_match_types#Gauntlet_match
Basically, here it's a trial by combat, where you have to defeat them all and be left standing (thank you for explanation, several kind people). Sounds appropriate for a barbarian, indeed.
Or at least cross each portal back and forth, as it is speculated.


Also, about respawning the monsters: if strip 1270 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html) is any indication, there's no automatic respawn, it's just Serini bringing some fresh monsters from time to time while hidden behind invisibility.

[Lemarc]

How does Serini reach the gate if she needs to? That's the point of having a puzzle/trap instead of metaphorically sealing the macguffin in lead and burying it in concrete, right? Does she have to reach the end of every single dungeon in the valley in the event she needs to do a check-up or maintenance?

[Peelee]

What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.
I'm sorry, I'm confused. Where did I mention Dungeons and Dragons? I said that's not how Sending works (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html).

It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.
Which is not a terribly convincing argument (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).

It seems like you think i am arguing against your ideas. I am not. I am pointing out how the your ideas are directly contradicted by the comic.

Hell, call all the dragons. Again, both not how Sending works and also likely wouldn't bother to help even if Sending could just contact random people.

[Bacon Elemental]

snip

Whoah, I'd long since forgotten about floating that idea. Must have been my barbarian brain kicking in.


Anyway, I do in fact think that "You must delve EVERY dungeon before Monster Hollow begins resetting to uncover the real entrance" is brilliant, and EXACTLY the kind of monument a rogue would build to a barbarian. As a plus side, even if there wasn't such a strong divination blackout on the Gate it would ensure that any "Find the gate" spell would just point you to the doors in Monster Hollow, since that IS the correct path to the gate.

[hroþila]

Aside from all the logistical/mechanical problems with the Sending spell, I'm not sure it'd be wise to openly advertise the existence of a doomsday device that some Evil guys are trying to use and that can be destroyed in order to destroy the world. Even if Xykon was defeated, that's just asking for a cornucopia of villains to pop up with their own Gate-related schemes down the line. There's a reason why the gods try to be careful with this information. And good luck convincing everybody including the dragons to help if you don't explain exactly why you need them in unequivocal terms.

Ultimately, there's a limited number of people they could realistically call on, and many of them are stuck at a Godsmoot.

[Precure]

All things put aside, V should contact Aarindarius at least.

[Bacon Elemental]

Possibly, but I think Rich has previously hinted that Aarindarius probbably isn't as awesome as V remembers them as? Your wise and powerful old teacher who you haven't seen since you were 5th level might not be as good at cleaning up your 16th level CR 22+ messes as you recall or something.

[Peelee]

This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.

Also I'd like to address this. Or, rather, the author would like to address this fourteen yesrs ago.

As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise.
Sure, it's not a D&D comic, it's a just exactly like D&D in every way except when it is explicitly not. Sending has never been shish to be explicitly not, so even without all of Sending's restrictions being spelled out in several comics, we can still use the SRD to determine how it works until the comic specifically shows it not working that way.

Tl;dr - you might want to drop this rebuttal argument in the future. It's wrong.

[Larsaan]

Oh! That reminds me, this comic now puts all claims of "Serini is effectively helping Xykon" to objectively wrong as she knew that they needed to do all the dungeons, and would have known from observation that extra doors were being marked and as such they would not satisfy the conditions to get to the Gate.

Would she? There's been no indication so far that she's been surveilling Team Evil at all. Also, this is assuming Redcloak doesn't immediately catch on the moment the last door gets marked and he starts counting them, or they simply call a do-over using a method that MITD can't fudge (like they're doing, oh, right now).

Frankly this page proves the opposite, that Serini's non-intervention stance on Xykon would have made him finding the Gate inevitable.

[The MunchKING]

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Where did I mention Dungeons and Dragons? I said that's not how Sending works (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html).

I was going to say "Gate either", but looking back on the initial statement, it's vague enough on whether they wanted to Gate in all the wizards, or have the Wizards gate in a bunch of other allies.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, forgetting the Gate spell only works interplanar usually isn’t a big thing because usually you want to summon big stronk Outsiders anyways.

[Edreyn]

I wonder, to find the real dungeon, do they have to actually visit all dungeons, or just marking them as finished can do the trick? If it is so, then MitD is actually helping Team Evil.

[Wintermoot]

You know, I am exceedingly and increasingly disappointed by the end of big budget super hero movies when you end up with an army of good guys vs an army of bad guys in a CGI swarm, a thousand processors crying out in tandem as they make them clash. I think Avengers Endgame was the last I wish to see of it because it was the last to do it "pretty well".

I don't want to see this comic end with "a hundred other powerful people show up to save the day". So I'm grateful that it isn't happening.

Regardless, the Author has done more that sufficient to explain why that isn't an option. Multiple times.

[Peelee]

Would she? There's been no indication so far that she's been surveilling Team Evil at all. Also, this is assuming Redcloak doesn't immediately catch on the moment the last door gets marked and he starts counting them, or they simply call a do-over using a method that MITD can't fudge (like they're doing, oh, right now).

Frankly this page proves the opposite, that Serini's non-intervention stance on Xykon would have made him finding the Gate inevitable.
There is plenty of indication. Serini had to be surveilling the canyon or she wouldn't have known about the paladins or Order entering.

Also, you are explicitly wrong that this proves it would have nade Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, as, again, MitD's interference already hampered that. They wouldn't have found it either way.

If you are convinced it prived that this would made made Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, please, feel free to specify how, since you just said it does with no backing - that which can be offered with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence. And seeing as how you missed entirely that she had to have been surveilling all activity in the canyon in order to know about the paladins and the Order (and where they were, and had formulated a plan to remove them from the board), i have my doubts as to your analysis regarding this page.

I wonder, to find the real dungeon, do they have to actually visit all dungeons, or just marking them as finished can do the trick? If it is so, then MitD is actually helping Team Evil.
Why would you wonder this? Has any indication that marking a door is necessary at all, much less imperative?

[Edreyn]

Why would you wonder this? Has any indication that marking a door is necessary at all, much less imperative?

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

There was something similar in one of books from Xanth series, "Ogre! Ogre!", by Piers Anthony.

The protagonist had to find the leader of nightmare horses in an infinite ravine. The stallion would be in the last place searched.
But how to find last place in endless ravine?
He took a ball of threads, also literally infinite, and divided the ravine in two halves, ASSUMING he searched one of them. Then he divided the remaining half in two more halves and so on. In a finite and actually very small piece of this place, he cornered his enemy.
He didn't actually search through endless place, he cheated the system, by marking parts of it as searched.

So, remembering this story, I thought that just marking doors as finished is the same as actually visiting dungeons. Someone in this thread already said, that it might not be necessary to kill everyone inside. Maybe even going inside isn't a must and just stating that you visited dungeon behind the door is enough?

We shall see.

[Peelee]

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

I would contest "always". For example, in this story, this loophole would be quite bad and i would complain about bad writing if it happens.

Twists need good reasons to be good.

[JonahFalcon]

Let's get all the heroes to the dungeons!

Oh, the Mechane left. Never mind.

[whitehelm]

That leaves a hole: if the OotS goes through, what, the 13th door from the end and fights through the first room (they can definitely do that. Even if they're not as strong as Xykon+Redcloak+Oona, fighting half a dungeon when Team Evil was doing 5 per day is quite reasonable), then when Team Evil goes there, they skip it. No illusion here, and Pass Without Trace may be doable if they increase Belkar's Wisdom (alternatively, hope they don't ask Oona to scout in every dungeon).

This won't work, because Redcloak is using Detect Evil (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html) to identify which doors they've already entered. If a door has dead monsters but no Evil aura, he's going to know something's up and check it anyway.

[Ruck]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?579840-OOTS-1154-The-Discussion-Thread&p=23680723&highlight=gate#post23680723

Less straightforward than it appears (at a time when we didn't know about the swap-overs yet), still hidden behind lots of monsters... Yeah, I'll take at least partial credit for that.

[Laurentio III]

Now, question.
Serini said that there are only an handful of monsters in the backstage, that is where they are at the moment.
But, the dungeon is able to regenerate its monsters, and clearly a clean dungeon can't repopulate by itself. Monsters are often fast-grower and can have abundant cubs, but you still need to preserve some fertile couple.
Plus, such an high number of monsters, most of which are carnivorous, needs food. Plenty of food. And for economic reason, they can't just prey on themselves, and the occasional bugbear is just an appetizer.
So, somewhere that is NOT the backstage, there must exist a giganormous breeding farm, somehow automatized. The biggest Minecraft farm of mobs ever seen.

Is this a correct guess, or I'm missing something?
Is Redclock going to win the gauntlet just to being zerg rushed by all the Monster Manual epic digest?

[Resileaf]

No bet. Keep your 10 gold. That hasn't been stated or even alluded to in-comic. But it is a fact that the ritual takes weeks.



Wouldn't happen twice. Bad storytelling. Nice unmarked spoiler, by the way.



What is this "Dungeons & Dragons" you speak of? This hasn't been a D&D comic for over a decade.



It's not "foe the lulz" it's because ALL OF CREATION WILL BE DESTROYED.



Hell, call all the dragons. Look at how pissed they were that a quarter of all black dragons met the same fate.
How satisfying would you find your D&D campaign if your DM summoned in a hundred NPCs at the end to beat on the final boss and made your entire adventure pointless?

[Larsaan]

There is plenty of indication. Serini had to be surveilling the canyon or she wouldn't have known about the paladins or Order entering.

...

And seeing as how you missed entirely that she had to have been surveilling all activity in the canyon in order to know about the paladins and the Order

The Order had been loudly and regularly announcing their approach for some time, possibly also the paladins', so Serini was well aware of them. However, that only means she'd be keeping an eye out for new arrivals, not keeping an eye on Team Evil which is already on site (it would, in fact, draw time and energy away from doing so).

Granted, her knowledge about the other gates does imply that she has access to some kind of scrying effect, but there is no indication that she's got that kind of info over the canyon. There is, after all, a reason why they're currently relying on Blackwing for intel on Team Evil.


Also, you are explicitly wrong that this proves it would have nade Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, as, again, MitD's interference already hampered that. They wouldn't have found it either way.

If you are convinced it prived that this would made made Xykon finding the Gate inevitable, please, feel free to specify how

Answer me this please, what do you think would have happened when the last door had been marked? Do you think Redcloak and Xykon would have shrugged their shoulders and given up? We now know that the only things needed to find the Gate (or at least the final dungeon) is brute force and persistence, qualities that Team Evil has in spades. Even if Redcloak never caught the discrepancy between the marked doors and the time they'd spent there (which I think is already unlikely, hell, he's already considered the possibility of MITD messing up the markings), he's still got an analytical mindset, he'd keep trying new things with the dungeons. Sooner or later he'd have delved into every single one of them, the guy is immortal, it's a statistical inevitability.


And seeing as how you missed entirely that she had to have been surveilling all activity in the canyon in order to know about the paladins and the Order (and where they were, and had formulated a plan to remove them from the board), i have my doubts as to your analysis regarding this page.

And if you could make your next reply without any snide insults, I'd appreciate that too.

[Shining Wrath]

Turns out my grasp on English is shakier than I thought.
Could someone explain the system to me, please, using the terms diffrent from that in the comic?

The location of the Gate will not be revealed until someone has searched behind every door. In order to reach the goal you must pass through every door. It doesn't matter what order you open the doors, but you must open all of them.

It is not clear whether or not you have to do anything once you open a door, but I am assuming you have to explore the area behind the door.



Does it count if Team Evil opens a door and explores behind it, but doesn't notice the cross-over trick? It seems that it does.

[Fyraltari]

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

There was something similar in one of books from Xanth series, "Ogre! Ogre!", by Piers Anthony.

The protagonist had to find the leader of nightmare horses in an infinite ravine. The stallion would be in the last place searched.
But how to find last place in endless ravine?
He took a ball of threads, also literally infinite, and divided the ravine in two halves, ASSUMING he searched one of them. Then he divided the remaining half in two more halves and so on. In a finite and actually very small piece of this place, he cornered his enemy.
He didn't actually search through endless place, he cheated the system, by marking parts of it as searched.

So, remembering this story, I thought that just marking doors as finished is the same as actually visiting dungeons. Someone in this thread already said, that it might not be necessary to kill everyone inside. Maybe even going inside isn't a must and just stating that you visited dungeon behind the door is enough?

We shall see.

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?

[Edreyn]

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?


Maybe. I read it so long ago, about 20 years ago if not more. If not infinite, then too large to be explored by usual means.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe. I read it so long ago, about 20 years ago if not more. If not infinite, then too large to be explored by usual means.

Alternatively, the author might not have been (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WritersCannotDoMath) a mathematician. Those are two skillsets with little overlap. And infinities are anything but intuitive, as Hilbert proved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel).

GW

[OvisCaedo]

I don't know anything about the story, but if the loophole of "claiming I searched this half because it's marked" works to start with, then you could reduce an infinite chasm to a finite one pretty easily. Go in the other direction for a bit, mark it, claim you searched the other side, and the "unsearched" portion would now be the finite middle chunk you're standing in. Which, obviously, you happened to not search while walking through.

Though the whole thing is a rather big logical stretch

[Fish]

How satisfying would you find your D&D campaign if your DM summoned in a hundred NPCs at the end to beat on the final boss and made your entire adventure pointless?
It depends on why the NPCs are there. If they are the result of carefully cultivating allies and friendships through RP, then it’d be pretty badass. Sort of like the end of season 1 of The Mandalorian.

If the D&D game is a mindless dungeon crawl where the players are just XP consumption machines, I can see why they would be upset.

Naturally I’m not implying those are the only two options.

[Rinazina]

I theorize that they have not done all the dungeons. I think the refresh is fast enough that they would be able to do a subset over and over. They would do that instead of having to go to the furthest one away from their camp, because there would be no need. They are only doing it for the food. Why go out of the way?

I mean, why the should not open all of them and just check what's there? they are not depleting the monsters, but assuming Oona or the Shaman or other historically active member of the tribe did not checked all of them, it is an assumption that bugbears are just super lazy or no curious at all..


bugbears should have checked all doors in so many years,
... hence, checking all door is not enough
killing all monster is? (...then the team evil is not going to win with the Quinton blocking them)
or is to reach the end of each dungeon? (...and ok, maybe the bugbears did check all the doors but avoided the most problematic)
or there is a refresh period?


I guess this would be clarify in the next strip (edit: except if we don't have a super cutaway panel that start to bring us somewhere else), at this point, because the puzzle is solved anyway

[Ruck]

Maybe even going inside isn't a must and just stating that you visited dungeon behind the door is enough?

Stating to whom or what?

[Resileaf]

It depends on why the NPCs are there. If they are the result of carefully cultivating allies and friendships through RP, then it’d be pretty badass. Sort of like the end of season 1 of The Mandalorian.

If the D&D game is a mindless dungeon crawl where the players are just XP consumption machines, I can see why they would be upset.

Naturally I’m not implying those are the only two options.

In the context of the post I'm replying to, we're talking about NPCs the Order have never met, who are just been summoned because they're high level characters and the world is in danger and such.

The Giant has already done a 'The Cavalry comes' moment when Durkon's family joined the fight against the vampires anyway. It was badass, it was narratively satisfying, it made sense because they were all mentionned in the past and were all in a nearby physical location. Here we're talking about random dudes with no characterization who will just appear from nowhere and gang up on Xykon like the adventurers who killed Yokyok. This ain't 8-bit theater, there's narrative catharsis in this story.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, why the should not open all of them and just check what's there? they are not depleting the monsters, but assuming Oona or the Shaman or other historically active member of the tribe did not checked all of them, it is an assumption that bugbears are just super lazy or no curious at all..


bugbears should have checked all doors in so many years,
... hence, checking all door is not enough
killing all monster is? (...then the team evil is not going to win with the Quinton blocking them)
or is to reach the end of each dungeon? (...and ok, maybe the bugbears did check all the doors but avoided the most problematic)
or there is a refresh period?


I guess this would be clarify in the next strip (edit: except if we don't have a super cutaway panel that start to bring us somewhere else), at this point, because the puzzle is solved anyway

Maybe it has to be the same person and no individual bugbear ever searched every door even if the tribe collectively did.

[Psyren]

How satisfying would you find your D&D campaign if your DM summoned in a hundred NPCs at the end to beat on the final boss and made your entire adventure pointless?

I just want to note that it's not entirely impossible to have 100 NPCs show up and help the party save the day be a satisfying resolution. It all depends on context and setup.

Exhibit A (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1162.html)
Exhibit B (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrGMENN1iaY)

With that said, I don't think that will be the case here, or at the very least that won't be the way Team Evil gets defeated; their rivalry with the Order is too personal and long-running for that. But there are other antagonists (the IFCC, the gods*, the Snarl itself) where the safety of the entire Stickworld is at stake, and therefore the involvement of the entire Stickworld can be part of the resolution without necessarily detracting from the core heroes' story.

*as a general group, not individuals

[Jasdoif]

In the context of the post I'm replying to, we're talking about NPCs the Order have never met, who are just been summoned because they're high level characters and the world is in danger and such.I think the bigger concern is the almost certainty that they'll eliminate Redcloak, ruining Thor's plan to save the world. The Order doesn't have any control over them, very few if any will have any idea Thor has placed any importance on Redcloak at all, Durkon doesn't even have a plan to share at this point, Redcloak is a high level spellcaster capable of killing some of them if given the chance....The key to saving the world may well be crushed beneath metaphorical hooves if cavalry comes to solve the short-term threat.

[The MunchKING]

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?

It was mental/spiritual plane of existence thing. It was supposed to use weird dream logic because it was a dream realm.

[Thecommander236]

Well, I understand the concept, I have to wonder about the execution. How does the Dungeon determine that you finished one of the entrances? Can you just step in and step out? Or do you have to defeat everything in it? Team Evil is just stepping in, using Force Cage or whatever on all the enemies. Does that count as "Dungeon" complete or do they have to step over some invisible line or look at something in particular for it to count as completed?

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius was about to go over some ideas. But no one else in the comic cared.

[The MunchKING]

Well, I understand the concept, I have to wonder about the execution. How does the Dungeon determine that you finished one of the entrances? Can you just step in and step out? Or do you have to defeat everything in it? Team Evil is just stepping in, using Force Cage or whatever on all the enemies. Does that count as "Dungeon" complete or do they have to step over some invisible line or look at something in particular for it to count as completed?

I was assuming some kind of switch in the very back.

[Kish]

Maybe. I read it so long ago, about 20 years ago if not more. If not infinite, then too large to be explored by usual means.
I think "I assume Serini's very serious effort to protect the Gate follows the same rules as a dreamworld which is itself inside a world based on puns" will not lead you anywhere fruitful.

[bunsen_h]

And then try to grab the Gate (it's a big magical crystal; it's sure worth a lot!) and walk off with it, probably.

A scintillating, many fauceted scarlet emerald (https://ansible.uk/misc/eyeargon.html)?


Tarquin and his gang? They'll obviously come back in some way or another after that cliffhanger, but I doubt anyone in the party would think of calling them.

I seem to recall that, per the Giant, part of the point of that ending was -- precisely -- that Tarquin got an ignominious ending. Rather than getting an ending that Tarquin would consider appropriate for a major character.


A gauntlet is also a term for a punishment where the offender would run between lines of people armed with sticks that beat him for his offenses.

The gantlet can also be a kind of ritual test of courage and stamina, used to prove worthiness to join a group. One who walks through it, slowly and steadily, enduring the pain, gets to join the tribe. One who tries to rush, or flinches or tries to evade the blows, fails (and gets treated even more harshly than someone who reacts stoically).


Alternatively, the author might not have been (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WritersCannotDoMath) a mathematician. Those are two skillsets with little overlap. And infinities are anything but intuitive, as Hilbert proved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel).

Well, Piers Anthony knew enough game theory to nick the "Prisoners' Dilemma" and write it into one of those books, as a thing invented by one of the characters, while not giving any credit for it in his Foreword or Afterword. I think that that was kind of the final straw for me when it came to reading those books, not that there weren't lots of other problems that irritated me.

[Kamunami]

I was assuming some kind of switch in the very back.

I feel like that would make the puzzle more obvious. Each one is meant to look like a decoy.

[The MunchKING]

well, I meant a well-hidden secret one.

[Cazero]

Half of infinity is just as infinite as the previous inifity. That "loophole" makes no sense. Are you sure the ravine wasn't just very big?
I think the idea is to mark as searched the infinite area behind you, take three steps, mark as searched the infinite area before you, then turn back and search the three steps you've taken.
Wich is still stupid. Declaring an area as searched makes no sense.

[Resileaf]

I just want to note that it's not entirely impossible to have 100 NPCs show up and help the party save the day be a satisfying resolution. It all depends on context and setup.

Exhibit A (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1162.html)
Exhibit B (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrGMENN1iaY)


Already addressed in my previous post.


In the context of the post I'm replying to, we're talking about NPCs the Order have never met, who are just been summoned because they're high level characters and the world is in danger and such.

The Giant has already done a 'The Cavalry comes' moment when Durkon's family joined the fight against the vampires anyway. It was badass, it was narratively satisfying, it made sense because they were all mentionned in the past and were all in a nearby physical location. Here we're talking about random dudes with no characterization who will just appear from nowhere and gang up on Xykon like the adventurers who killed Yokyok. This ain't 8-bit theater, there's narrative catharsis in this story.

[Aquillion]

Although, if the only reason the gate is accessible is to ensure that Serini has access to it, I wonder why she didn't include at least one of the required doors "backstage", so nobody can access the gate without solving that part as well.

[Sienar]

In all this discussion about how Serini is able to force Team Evil to grind every dungeon to get to the gate, no one has asked the most significant question.

What the heck is a "shoe doubler" and how is that insulting?

In all seriousness, most of her insults I kind of understand and can appreciate the smack but shoe doubler?

[Tzardok]

Propably got something to do with how halflings don't wear shoes in this setting. And doubler, well, halflings are half as tall as humans, so a human is double the size of a halfling. So it's something like "shoe-wearing giant oaf'.

[Imbalance]

Google doesn't know what "tweeby" means.:smallbiggrin:

...neither do I...:smalleek:

[Psyren]

Already addressed in my previous post.

I know that, but my point is we have options to do this besides "random dudes with no characterization" too. Of course the least satisfying way of executing this wouldn't be satisfying, that just means you shouldn't do it that way.


Although, if the only reason the gate is accessible is to ensure that Serini has access to it, I wonder why she didn't include at least one of the required doors "backstage", so nobody can access the gate without solving that part as well.

We don't know that "Backstage" isn't connected to the Final Dungeon. (Indeed, the fact that the swap-overs work both ways is foreshadowing that it might be.)

[JonahFalcon]

Google doesn't know what "tweeby" means.:smallbiggrin:

...neither do I...:smalleek:

It's an extremely derogatory word for halfling foot fungus. Because, you know, halflings don't normally get it, being barefoot.

[KorvinStarmast]

We know. The heroes know and now V's tenants (the Demons Three) know. Wrong word there. A tenant lives in a place owned by a landlord. The fiends do not live in V's place, V (for a short period) exists in theirs. I will suggest that "V's landlords, the Demons Three" fits better there.

Not exactly, but finding a loophole in someone's complex plan is always good for story.

There was something similar in one of books from Xanth series, "Ogre! Ogre!", by Piers Anthony. You lost me at Piers Anthony. After The Color of Magic, I knew better than to go for a second helping.
Later correction: The Source of Magic

Vaarsuvius was about to go over some ideas. But no one else in the comic cared. Thank you, and well said.

[Tzardok]

Wrong word there. A tenant lives in a place owned by a landlord. The fiends do not live in V's place, V (for a short period) exists in theirs. I will suggest that "V's landlords, the Demons Three" fits better there.


How about debt holders, or if you want to be fancy, obligees? V after all owes them something, and it's their choice when they'll call in the debt.

[Resileaf]

I know that, but my point is we have options to do this besides "random dudes with no characterization" too. Of course the least satisfying way of executing this wouldn't be satisfying, that just means you shouldn't do it that way.

What other options? The only people who have the power to be of use that we have seen during the course of the story are the high priests of the pantheons, and every single one of them is stuck at their Godsmoot and will be until long after the plot is resolved.

[Jay R]

Vaarsuvius was about to go over some ideas. But no one else in the comic cared.

I suspect that a better description would be this:

Vaarsuvius was about to maunder on at absurd length about hypothetical methods that don't affect the plot and that the Order doesn't need to know, and Rich didn't want to mess with it. He had Vaarsuvius mention that it could be done, and moved on.

[If you want Vaarsuvius to mention something briefly, then you need to have somebody cut V off. "Briefly" is not the Vaarsuvian way.]

[brian 333]

Now, question.
Serini said that there are only an handful of monsters in the backstage, that is where they are at the moment.
But, the dungeon is able to regenerate its monsters, and clearly a clean dungeon can't repopulate by itself. Monsters are often fast-grower and can have abundant cubs, but you still need to preserve some fertile couple.
Plus, such an high number of monsters, most of which are carnivorous, needs food. Plenty of food. And for economic reason, they can't just prey on themselves, and the occasional bugbear is just an appetizer.
So, somewhere that is NOT the backstage, there must exist a giganormous breeding farm, somehow automatized. The biggest Minecraft farm of mobs ever seen.

Is this a correct guess, or I'm missing something?
Is Redclock going to win the gauntlet just to being zerg rushed by all the Monster Manual epic digest?

Why can they not be magically created monster's which have a property of being resurrected after an interval?

Or, the monster's access the dungeon from outside, where their non-swapover entrance is located. Cleaning it out makes room for more to move in.

[enq]

So I don't think this has any plot relevance, but I think I passed a Spot check on a delightful detail: Serini's pillow is a mimic.

It's looking angry in panels 5, 6 and 7. It also doesn't seem to be resting as flat as you would expect.

[RatElemental]

We know. The heroes know and now V's tenants (the Demons Three) know.

Tenants? The IFCC aren't inside of V and if the gods are blocking the dark one from scrying into the dungeon then I assume it would be keeping the IFCC out too.

[Precure]

Can someone translate Serini to me?

[Canisius]

One thing I can't figure out: if Oona and her tribe use the dungeons to get supplies by killing mobs, wouldn't she already know where the final dungeon is?

[Going Hereward]

I liked the shell game callback.

[DavidSh]

Can someone translate Serini to me?

I think "tweeby shoe-doubler" is a twist on "Goody Two-Shoes", with a soupçon of halflingish dislike of shoes in general.