OOTS #516 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[The Iron Muffin]

Belkar made a spot check? Woah.

[selgnij]

Ah the benifits of being awake at 2 in the morning. Nice comic before sleep. And here I thought for a breif moment it was Belkar that would have a change of heart and fight for the city instead of personal gain. O well, maybe next comic... maybe.

[RNG]

I wonder what Belkar spot...

Nice comic, overall.

[DrivinAllNight]

Yeah, Go Belkster :)

[Guts]

Pretty nice. I wonder what Belkar went for and it seems that Tsukiko is quite serious about the necrophiliac thing.

[EvilElitest]

what is this about 1st edition?
from,
EE

[SPoD]

what is this about 1st edition?
from,
EE

In First Edition, evil clerics could turn paladins the same way good clerics could turn undead.

[monty]

Ooh, plot twists!

[the_tick_rules]

now we have an undead rights advocate in the comic, will wonders never cease?

[SteveDJ]

Hmmm, Tsukiko has two different colors of energy glowing from each hand - could there be any meaning to that?

[Icewalker]

Very funny, as always.


Hmmm, Tsukiko has two different colors of energy glowing from each hand - could there be any meaning to that?

That's usually attributed to the whole Mystic Theurge thing, because she can cast both arcane and divine spells.

[Ichneumon]

This comic was great, made me finally connect to necromancer.

[Cubey]

Hmmm, Tsukiko has two different colors of energy glowing from each hand - could there be any meaning to that?

She's a Mystic Theurge, so it symbolises arcane and divine magic.

Funny how the paladin got some bloody-looking wounds after being hit by a Flamestrike.

[The Wanderer]

Ah, the benefits of a late night forum refresh. :smallbiggrin: Nice comic, it should be interesting to see where this goes, both with Tsuikiko looking for Haley and what Belkar saw.


Hmmm, Tsukiko has two different colors of energy glowing from each hand - could there be any meaning to that?

I think it's just because, as a Mystic Theurge, she wields both arcane, (wizard), and divine (cleric) magic.

[WildBill]

I want shoes

[reorith]

I want shoes

you can walk a mile in my shoes any day

[Asarth]

The wight seemed so child-like and innocent. It's kind of cute. :smallsmile:

Wonder what Belkar spotted...

[The Extinguisher]

Love the title.

Also, I was right. Tsukiko is both a necrophiliac and a mother figure to them. Go me!

Another tic in the "FMA got it right" collumn.
...There's only five tics. ;_;

[Rollin]

Why are her eyes different colors? Same reason?

EDIT: as I might have known, there's a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45444) on it.

[mockingbyrd7]

I want shoes

Too bad.

Funny strip, the Belkar thing is a mystery, but we'll have to wait and see.

Question for you all: If a paladin does something evil, but is dominated or charmed while it happens and technically has no mental control over that action, do they still fall from grace?
(Example: If Tsukiko uses her Dominate Person spell to make Thanh kill in cold blood, does he fall?)

[The Extinguisher]

Depends of the DM.

Some will not have the paladin fall. Some will have him fall, but allow for very easy redemtion. Some will treat it like it's a normal evil act.

"Hey, if he was really good, he would have made his save."

[Aerysil]

Did funny wooking bwue haiwed man fowget his pwotection fwom eviw spew?

[DracoDei]

Question for you all: If a paladin does something evil, but is dominated or charmed while it happens and technically has no mental control over that action, do they still fall from grace?
(Example: If Tsukiko uses her Dominate Person spell to make Thanh kill in cold blood, does he fall?)
Yeah, but in that case it is just an Atonement spell to fix it, and it doesn't even cost the caster any XPs. WILLINGLY committing an Evil act requires divine intervention or something to fix.

[Covenantwgw]

You idiot! NPC's should NEVER run off when the PC's tell you they've seen something. Don't you know that's instant death even if you HAVE a name!?

[Chrismith]

Look at Thanh's eyes after he's dominated -- I love the detail of this strip.

[ref]

I assume the title references some kind of song...

Again, Belkar screws up. I wonder why they keep him.

[SPoD]

Yeah, but in that case it is just an Atonement spell to fix it, and it doesn't even cost the caster any XPs. WILLINGLY committing an Evil act requires divine intervention or something to fix.

This is incorrect in 3.5. Now, magical compulsion is a free pass and does not involve any loss of powers. From the SRD:


A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Thanh has not ceased being LG, has not willfully committed an evil act, and likely won't be treated as grossly violating the code of conduct. Thus, he is in little danger of Falling.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

Too bad about him being dominated... I wonder what Belkar went to find though, anyone have any ideas?

[timbuck_hunter]

something to combat moj, most likely

[BriarHobbit]

An interesting twist. Paladin don't often miss their saves. This looks like trouble for the good guys. "Dominate Monster" is a major league spell.

[mago]

the belkstar spotted an aboleth

[Zythran]

try walking in my shoes ? or are these boots made for walkin ? i don't know...

anyway, nice songs both :) nice comic too

[Rollin]

I assume the title references some kind of song...

Turning Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vapors#.22Turning_Japanese.22), I think I'm turning Japanese (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/onehitwonders/turningjapaneselyrics.html), I really think so!

[CrystaCub]

wow, I guess it really was a bad idea for Haley to bring Thanh along.. :smalleek:

[dish]

I assume the title references some kind of song...

Again, Belkar screws up. I wonder why they keep him.

1. Turning Japanese by the Vapours (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/v/vapors/turning+japanese_20143701.html)

2. Belkar didn't screw up. He's seen something that 'is worth the risk', and remember that Belkar usually isn't in it for the monetary reward (that's Hayley), he's in it for the killing, which means he might have seen something worth killing...(?) Thanh screwed up, as mentioned above, if a PC tells an NPC they've seen something the NPC shouldn't then wander off on their own.

[RTGoodman]

Guess Thanh's Divine Grace didn't help him make that particular save...

[Assuming he's at least 2nd level.]

[Alex Warlorn]

My money is on that Belkar used the spot as an excuse to ditch him. If he saw the mystic ahead of time and knew he couldn't take her and wanted him to delay her.

[fractal]

Suddenly the fact that Belkar can only deal non-lethal damage doesn't seem like so much of a liability. Thanh is in need of some subduing.

Also, I hope we don't see any more of those Dominate Person spells. They're a menace. Belkar's saves probably aren't any better than Thanh's, either (he failed vs. Nale's Charm Person, after all).

About Paladins rarely failing saves, though, perhaps you've forgotten this? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html - that's a pretty high failure rate, although admittedly the spell was higher level and the caster didn't have MAD.

[Wikkin]

Yay an update! Pretty good one, Giant!

Wik

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
Very good.


Question for you all: If a paladin does something evil, but is dominated or charmed while it happens and technically has no mental control over that action, do they still fall from grace?
(Example: If Tsukiko uses her Dominate Person spell to make Thanh kill in cold blood, does he fall?)

Thanh has not ceased being LG, has not willfully committed an evil act, and likely won't be treated as grossly violating the code of conduct. Thus, he is in little danger of Falling.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm
If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.

Therefore, atonement is still required even in cases of supernatural compulsion.
I wouldn't worry too much. Given Thanh's likely saves and HP, he'll probably be able to resist the spell eventually.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm
Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus.

EDIT: However, Rich may well see fit to houserule that involuntary breaches of conduct don't count against paladin standing, depending on intent. It debatably makes more sense that way.

[Hurkyl]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm
If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.

Therefore, atonement is still required even in cases of supernatural compulsion.
That doesn't follow; that passage only talks about the costs to the caster, and implies nothing about what sort of situations require atonement.

[Alfryd]

A distinction wouldn't be made if atonement weren't required of involuntary breaches of conduct in the first place.

[David Argall]

If a paladin does something evil, but is dominated or charmed while it happens and technically has no mental control over that action, do they still fall from grace?
(Example: If Tsukiko uses her Dominate Person spell to make Thanh kill in cold blood, does he fall?)

Answer: It depends. He is likely safe in the short range since his actions will be often unwilling. However Atonement can be cast on those who sined unwillingly, and so our unwilling paladin is not completely safe here. We might note that many of his paladin ability might be ruled suspended if he did anything evil while dominated and would not return until he atoned.
[We should also note that when the book says there is a penalty for X, that does not mean there is no penalty for 1/2 X. That penalty is clearly less than that for X, but beyond that, it is largely a judgement call for the DM whether 1/2 X is trivial, almost as bad, or somewhere in between.]

His major danger, however, comes after the spell is over. At this point he becomes under a duty to correct whatever evil he did while dominated [Return goods stolen, arrest criminal responsible...]. He may not plea that since he was dominated, he can just walk away. If he were to do that, the sins would be judged evil and he would then fall. [Correcting the evil of course would not require doing the impossible. Our 1st level dominated by the 20th would not be expected to hunt him down and try to arrest him, but he would be expected to report the crimes to those who could and make what efforts he can to help.]

Thanh now does have the chance of 2nd saves. As a paladin, he has a long list of things that are against his nature. But as with Belkar and Nale, a little difference in wording can make a lot of difference. He probably can't be ordered to betray the resistance, but if she orders Thanh to take her to Haley or his HQ, he probably has to obey even tho the practical effect is much the same.

For fans of the unlikely, there are circumstances under which Thanh would have some degree of free will, which might include being able to cast Remove Paralysis while near O-Chul. We need some special circumstances and in general NPCs are supposed to be rescued by PCs, not by each other, but that sort of thing has happened in the comic, so it is not to be absolutely ruled out.

We have more evidence that Tsukiko is at least 12th level. But she is likely not much more. We would have expected her to have used the 6th level Create Undead if she could have. [Of course, then we would not have had a Black squad made of wights... and the characters in this strip are not mini-maxers, at least not good ones.]

[SPoD]

A distinction wouldn't be made if atonement weren't required of involuntary breaches of conduct in the first place.

You obviously have a far greater confidence in the editing staff at WOTC than I do.

[Tadpole]

A distinction wouldn't be made if atonement weren't required of involuntary breaches of conduct in the first place.It can be used in the case of involuntary breaches of conduct, but it doesn't follow that it's required. Also, that spell isn't just for paladins, either.

[Fighterdoken]

You know, for one minute i thought that Belkar started turning azurite...

...silly me, it was Tsukiko who was "turning" azurites :smallconfused:

Darn, i think reading Elan's puns is starting to affect me.
(and now i can't stop humming that song either)

[Armond]

Absolutely love the name. Wonderful strip. :D

[North]

So I wonder what Belkar saw inside a granary thats so important.....

[fractal]

So I wonder what Belkar saw inside a granary thats so important.....
I bet some sort of gourmet food. It's the granary, he has a discriminating palate, it's a perfect match!

[Penquin47]

Obviously, he saw Mr. Scruffy!

[LibraryOgre]

In First Edition, evil clerics could turn paladins the same way good clerics could turn undead.

And 2nd edition, as well.

[tenguro]

Excellent, also reminded me I need a new pair of shoes. Can't wait to see what Belkar spotted...maybe a bag of holding of many woderous items perhaps?

[The Bushranger]

Oh dear...

(and late-night updates FTW! :smallsmile: )

[Lizard Lord]

something to combat moj, most likely

I would say it is unlikly he will find something like that in a granary.

[Krytha]

Belkar must've seen the exploding brand of pineapple...

[atom]

Somehow that remark about Tsukiko being a necrophiliac leads me to believe that she's also a pedophile - these wights are Children, for chrissake.

Still, I can't help but like the character - she brings unlight into camp Evil, just as redcloak brings... well... a kind of hipocritic compassion for the goblin kind. On second thought, she does kind of remind me of redclocak. What he does for his goblins, she does for the undead.

I wonder if she fancies Xycon...

[Adventurer]

Yay! Belkar finally rolls a 20 on a Spot check!

Tsukiko is turning out to be a great character. I hope we can see a showdown between her and Haley:smallbiggrin:

[jamroar]

I would say it is unlikly he will find something like that in a granary.

Looted diamond stash, maybe? He might think it's worth the trouble if the resistance has a cleric capable of resurrecting Roy.

[kierthos]

I really doubt it's something that Belkar wants to kill. I mean, okay, under the curse, really the only things he can fight with no side-effects occuring are undead and constructs.

Xykon, Redcloak, nor Tsukiko have been shown to be involved in making constructs of any sort (does TeeVo count? I think not.) whereas they are into making undead minions.

Now if it was just some more undead, Belkar probably would have said so. Possibly not, but probably. If it was just more hobbos, he probably wouldn't have gone after it. I mean, he can't deal lethal damage to them, and he's shown very little interest in dealing nonlethal damage at all.

A magic item would seem horribly out of place in a granary or other food storage area, but we are dealing with a world that over-utilizes certain RPG tropes. Diamonds to assist in Roy's resurrection are equally unlikely to be found in that area.

I'm guessing Belkar is going to find a couple small children and rescue them. Not because he's turning good or anything, but because one of the children will say something along the lines of "he (Belkar) is bigger then us. he can protect us." and play to Belkar's ego.

Edit: Strike that... with the look on Belkar's face... it's got to be something that interests or intrigues him. Hrm....

[orcmonk89]

Those Wights are so damn cute. Even if they are evil, level-draining undead.

[Fabio_MP]

New comic is up.

thanks

I am enjoing this Azurite spell of strips :)

healthy new year

[Lyinginbedmon]

I very much enjoyed the interactions between Tsukiko and the Wight in this comic, and I'm intrigued by the visible Dominate Person effect (That the paladin has the same colour eyes as Tsukiko now). Traditionally I've thought that the Dominate series of effects had no visible marker

[Deuce]

now we have an undead rights advocate in the comic, will wonders never cease?

She prefers the term "Metaphysically Challenged".

[HOLEkevin]

I just about fell out of my chair on the "Uh-huh. He made me feel funny inside." line.

I liked Tsukiko during the battle, but she is really turning into gold here.

[TheMeanDM]

Too bad.

Funny strip, the Belkar thing is a mystery, but we'll have to wait and see.

Question for you all: If a paladin does something evil, but is dominated or charmed while it happens and technically has no mental control over that action, do they still fall from grace?
(Example: If Tsukiko uses her Dominate Person spell to make Thanh kill in cold blood, does he fall?)

Funny you should ask that.

I was just reading about the River Styx, and the Amnesia that it causes.

It specifically states that if a paladin were to change alignments due to the amnesia (i.e. influenced by others to change from LG) then when he does regain his memories, he has lost his paladin status until he atones.

So, if we correlate that over to being Dominated....then when his domination is ended, he would no longer be a Paladin until he atones.

[The Tygre]

Ah, it's good to see you back, Giant. I just love what's being done with Tsukiko and the wights. Nice new angle.

Keep up the good work, Giant!

[Wych]

Who else wants a pet wight now?

[BeySann]

"You're lucky this isn't First Edition, or else we'd see how you'd like it if somebody turned You, paladin!"

Solid Gold Classic! I'm in love with Tsukiko! (Oooh, but I'd have to *die* before I could have that love returned, eh? Hmmmnn...)

[Neopolis]

I'm starting to like Tsukiko.

[sihnfahl]

Guess Thanh's Divine Grace didn't help him make that particular save... [Assuming he's at least 2nd level.]
Err, Paladin. They can't turn undead until level 4...

[ObeeKris]

You idiot! NPC's should NEVER run off when the PC's tell you they've seen something. Don't you know that's instant death even if you HAVE a name!?

I've never played D&D, but I'm familiar enough with it to get most of what's going on in the strip. But I have to ask, do NPCs know they're NPCs? Or do they assume that they are PCs?

[Blaznak]

Hee hee... I'm loving the maternal necromancer and kindergarten like undead. It's a funny combination.

I also enjoyed the "domination" of the paladin. Very creepy implications in the future, I think.

Finally, I thought that was a great reference to First Edition! Woot!

Later

[Alfryd]

You obviously have a far greater confidence in the editing staff at WOTC than I do.
Touché.

Of course, the logical thing to do here was for Thanh to make a Jump check and start a grapple, rather than risk Tsukiko getting off more spells while safely airborne. Gosh, who could have pulled that off more easily?


His major danger, however, comes after the spell is over. At this point he becomes under a duty to correct whatever evil he did while dominated [Return goods stolen, arrest criminal responsible...]. He may not plea that since he was dominated, he can just walk away.
Paladins who conspicuously walk away from their duty to right wrongs and protect the innocent Fall in any case. If he didn't Fall when he was dominated, he won't Fall for being unable to undo the damage when it ends.

For fans of the unlikely, there are circumstances under which Thanh would have some degree of free will, which might include being able to cast Remove Paralysis while near O-Chul.
The subject takes no actions aside from those required to carry out their orders or the basic needs of survival (sleep, eating, etc.)

...starting to like Tsukiko.
I have trouble understanding this. Tsukiko just did an extraordinarily creeptacular and highly cruel thing.

[sihnfahl]

I've never played D&D, but I'm familiar enough with it to get most of what's going on in the strip. But I have to ask, do NPCs know they're NPCs? Or do they assume that they are PCs?

Non-OOTS folks can know they're NPCs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html). Also, Shojo knew he had a NPC class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html).

Probably more, but those are the ones that I immediately remember without doing an archive crawl.

[Heroic]

Finally :belkar: succeded a Spot Check! :smallbiggrin:

Excellent Strip! I'm anxious to know what's gonna happen to Tanh

[Fozzie]

The only time he suceeds at a spot check is to leave a 'teammate' :P

Good comic, thanks giant :)
Happy new year to you all!

[sihnfahl]

Excellent Strip! I'm anxious to know what's gonna happen to Tanh

Since he's Dominated? "Return to the Rebel hideout."

From there, since she's got all those wights? Energy drain...

[Rollin]

She prefers the term "Metaphysically Challenged".

That's "differently animated". I know it's hard to keep up with these terms, but it's important.

[Robz_defheadz]

Who else wants a pet wight now?

I do!!:smallamused:

[silvadel]

Anyone else think the spot check was seeing tsuikiko and belkar decided to go the "other way" to "check it out."

[*Templar*]

Funny you should ask that.

I was just reading about the River Styx, and the Amnesia that it causes.

It specifically states that if a paladin were to change alignments due to the amnesia (i.e. influenced by others to change from LG) then when he does regain his memories, he has lost his paladin status until he atones.

So, if we correlate that over to being Dominated....then when his domination is ended, he would no longer be a Paladin until he atones.

Acts committed while suffering from amnesia are still voluntary. The most you could say is that they're mitigated by a lack of certain relevant information due to the memory loss. Willfully committing an evil act through ignorance is different from being forced to commit one against one's will. And we've already seen that to the Twelve Gods, ignorance is no excuse - Miko obviously didn't identify the act that brought about her fall as an evil one. This is realistic, since as I was saying in the thread about the Dark One's allies, in real life people who do evil virtually always mistake evil for good or discount morality altogether rather than intentionally doing evil for its own sake.

[sihnfahl]

Anyone else think the spot check was seeing tsuikiko and belkar decided to go the "other way" to "check it out."
Nope. Belkar looks too happy (in a 'oh boy, things are going to DIE' way) for that. Something that'll help him kill living things again without triggering the MoJ...

[Forealms]

Look at Thanh's eyes after he's dominated -- I love the detail of this strip.

I was close to suggesting that Thanh might be acting as he has seen the wights do to survive. You know, playing along so that he might have an attempt to defeat Tsukiko. Then upon further inspection I noticed his eyes. Unless paladins can change the color of their eyes on a whim, it looks like Thanh is screwed.

On an unrelated note, a new charity must be started! I will be the first to donate 100 GP to the "Shoes for Wights" foundation.
Do you get it? It's just like "Toys for Tots". Only, y'know, not.

[TroyXavier]

More Tsukiko fun. Very cool. Watch out, Haley.

[Zael Zuran]

Necropedophilia....

Wow. Just...wow. :smalltongue:

Maybe she can get them a dead puppy. Don't think too long on that one.

[FoE]

'He made me feel all funny inside!' Classic. :smallbiggrin:

[Necromancy]

I really doubt it's something that Belkar wants to kill. I mean, okay, under the curse, really the only things he can fight with no side-effects occuring are undead and constructs.

Xykon, Redcloak, nor Tsukiko have been shown to be involved in making constructs of any sort (does TeeVo count? I think not.) whereas they are into making undead minions.


I beg to differ

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html


However it IS highly unlikely that it is a construct. Given all the situational intricacies I'd say odds are it's a npc that Belkar knows personally.


(Edit) TeeVo is technically an accessory on a modified crystal ball that they bought at a 'Quest Buy' http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

[osyluth]

If she loves them so much, why doesn't Tusukiko give the "poor baby" her own black boots? :wink:

[Natural20]

Good going, Belkar. Natural 20 for the win. :smallsmile:

[jmaccabeus]

Hmmmm... perhaps what distracted Belkar was an illusion specifically intended to draw him away? If it's something particularly enticing (such as something he'd be able to kill) it would probably be difficult for him to disbelieve it until it's too late.

In another (although slightly related) theme, hopefully Tsukiko doesn't have our paladin friend start singing anything...

[Covenantwgw]

The only time he suceeds at a spot check is to leave a 'teammate' :P

Good comic, thanks giant :)
Happy new year to you all!

Technically his teammate left HIM. I'd say that flamestrike and dominate spell were instant karma for that act.

[Ziggy's_Roady]

I assume the title references some kind of song...

Yeah...The Vapor's "Turning Japanese"

New Wave much?

I love the title, I had a OOTS-gasm when I saw it.

"He made me feel funny on the inside!" - Brilliant

[EvilElitest]

In First Edition, evil clerics could turn paladins the same way good clerics could turn undead.

strange idea that
from,
EE

[rosebud]

And we've already seen that to the Twelve Gods, ignorance is no excuse - Miko obviously didn't identify the act that brought about her fall as an evil one.She suffered from the great sin of hubris by that point. Classic tragic hero.

Thanh was just inexperienced. If you want to nail him on something, he is willfully associating with an evil character due to his leader's preferences. I don't know if he knows Belkar is evil, though. The MoJ probably has its tempering effects.

What I want to know is of what use the twelve gods are. They don't seem to have done anything useful in defense of their followers or the world and threat to their own existence.

[John Campbell]

...starting to like Tsukiko.
I have trouble understanding this. Tsukiko just did an extraordinarily creeptacular and highly cruel thing.

Yeah, but she did it to a paladin. That makes it all better.

(Hate paladins so much...)

[Synthia]

Yeah, but she did it to a paladin. That makes it all better.

(Hate paladins so much...)

I like her style ^^ I hope she'll stay around as part of team Xykon.
She appears to be rather nice to her undeads, lol

[Holammer]

Interesting comic, whatever it might be Belkar spotted in the granary intrigues me. Like others suggested in the thread, it's probably something culinary related. It's a Granary! what else would they store there?
Maybe rich is just messing with us...
... and Belkar finds a pair of really neat daggers with insane artifact properties... Could happen. Maybe he finds scruffy on the job taking care of rodents? Now that'd rule :)

[holywhippet]

Tsukiko had better be careful though, any orders she gives him that goes against his nature gives him a new saving throw with a +2 bonus according to the SRD. Of course, you could argue that just about any order would trigger this from Tsukiko. Even the order to follow her could trigger it since a paladin would not willingly follow such an evil person.

[Yakk]

I just assume it is one of the things that we know are lost. Either the statue, or Roy's body.

[Ridureyu]

Yes, paladins fall even if they have no free will about it. That's one of the great balancing things in D&D - you, as the DM, can force the Paladin to fall even if the player's too sm art to fall for your tricks.

I prefer no-win situations, myself. Just pit him against a pregnant monster. BAM! LOSE!

[Nidhögg]

The title is unfortunately lost on me since I've never heard that song (or heard about that group before either). But I saw in the link posted by someone that it was from 1980, and I guess I didn't pay much attention to popmusic when I was six. :smallwink:

I love the way Tsukiko behaves like a kindergarten teacher for undeads, and the way that her undeads behave like children. :smallsmile:

I must say that I don't have as much sympathy for an undead rights activist as I do for a goblin rights activist, but it's fun anyway.

[David Argall]

I wonder if she fancies Xycon...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html



Paladins who conspicuously walk away from their duty to right wrongs and protect the innocent Fall in any case. If he didn't Fall when he was dominated, he won't Fall for being unable to undo the damage when it ends.
There is a distinction here. While a paladin has a general duty to right any wrong, he can/has to walk from most on the grounds that, among other things, there are more wrongs than he can possibly correct. However, having been involved in causing the wrong, however unwillingly, the paladin has a particular duty to right that wrong. He might still walk on the grounds that duty X is a greater duty for example, but there is definitely a difference at the margins.



The subject takes no actions aside from those required to carry out their orders or the basic needs of survival (sleep, eating, etc.)

There are a couple of loopholes here. [There are in most every spell, or human activity.] The victim attempts to carry out orders, stopping only when it has to. However, what happens when the order is carried out? Tsukiko might give a general command to report to her for further orders, but this is not an automatic command. So he may be at loose ends at times.
Alternately, she may give him an order to stay in a room until she needs him. He would not do anything that hinted at leaving the room, but unless he gets additional orders, he is at liberty to do a lot of things while in the room.
So somehow he can be at loose ends and by plot accident in the presence of O'Chul's paralyzed body. Absent orders not to do anything, he is still a paladin with a duty to help the afflicted in general, and his fellow paladin in particular.
All of this requires a great deal more luck than we are likely to see, but it is within the rules.


I have trouble understanding this. Tsukiko just did an extraordinarily creeptacular and highly cruel thing.
In case you have not noticed, Xykon and Redcloak have gotten cheers for doing nasty stuff too. We can blame it in part on the desire to cheer the winner.


The only time he suceeds at a spot check is to leave a 'teammate' :P

Belkar has made a number of spot checks, mostly entirely unimportant, but he did...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html


I beg to differ

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html
These are elementals, not constructs.


However it IS highly unlikely that it is a construct. Given all the situational intricacies I'd say odds are it's a npc that Belkar knows personally.

The body of Miko, which Belkar wants to use to really wreck our PG rating?
Otherwise, I am not sure there are many NPCs that Belkar knows personally. He is not into deep relationships, unless you count how deep he wants to put the knife into you.
Maybe a whore who gives a discount?

[MR.PIXIE]

If she loves them so much, why doesn't Tusukiko give the "poor baby" her own black boots? :wink:

Yhea! I meen, she doesn't even need boots.
She can fly!:smallannoyed:

[Doug Lampert]

I like her style ^^ I hope she'll stay around as part of team Xykon.
She appears to be rather nice to her undeads, lol

She deliberately teleported a bunch of CR 3 Wights into the same area of as least one suspected Level 13+ PC and had them SPREAD OUT to search for the PCs....

This is being nice to them? I'd hate to see her being nasty to them. Baring killing them herself I have trouble seeing just what she can do to them that's MORE likely to get them killed.

[Dib]

Is it wrong that I find Tsukiko inceredibly attractive :smalltongue: (ignoring the whole stick figure thing that is) :smallbiggrin:

[Holammer]

Is it wrong that I find Tsukiko inceredibly attractive :smalltongue: (ignoring the whole stick figure thing that is) :smallbiggrin:

I find that I want to smite her and turn her minions. Diff'rent Strokes I guess

[Ganurath]

Also, I was right. Tsukiko is both a necrophiliac and a mother figure to them. Go me!
...There's only five tics. ;_;Oedipus wants no part of this webcomic, but he doesn't have a choice. At Hollamer: Zombie Gary Coleman.

As for the comic itself, What does it say about Tsukiko that she was able to get past the Paladin's Will Save with a 4th level spell? Combined with the high Teleport carry...


The body of Miko, which Belkar wants to use to really wreck our PG rating?
Otherwise, I am not sure there are many NPCs that Belkar knows personally. He is not into deep relationships, unless you count how deep he wants to put the knife into you.
Maybe a whore who gives a discount?Mr. Scruffy!

[Yendor]

I agree that it's probably Mr. Scruffy. Belkar puts his daggers away, so it's not something stabable. If it was a friendly NPC, he could just speak to them (and they would probably have fled with the rest of the prisoners anyway). It's a granary, so it's unlikely to be loot.

So instead we have the cat, maybe hunting rats in the granary. And he's one of the few things Belkar has a soft spot for.

[hajo]

I guess it really was a bad idea for Haley to bring Thanh along.
Yes - considering that the only 'surviving' wight is the one he managed to turn.
Belkar clearly was the more efficent choice for that encounter.

OTOH, you don't know in advance who&what will show up, and most likely, the rebels don't have too many personnel to choose from.

[Fuzzypaws]

Yes, paladins fall even if they have no free will about it. That's one of the great balancing things in D&D - you, as the DM, can force the Paladin to fall even if the player's too sm art to fall for your tricks. I prefer no-win situations, myself. Just pit him against a pregnant monster. BAM! LOSE!

I despise DMs like you. The DM should not have "screw the players" as a goal, even less "screw one particular player." If you hate paladins that much, don't let your players take levels in the class; if you allow the class, don't pick on them. It's okay to present difficult choices but not no-win situations. (And I disagree that killing a pregnant monster would strip paladinhood.)

[Son of Urza]

I'm pretty sure I detected at least a hint of sarcasm in that post, if not quite a lot more.

[EntilZha]

Tsukiko can dominate me anytime. :smallwink:

[El_Jefe]

Just wanted to say great comic, it's amazing how many cool characters there are in this comic...there is much more to Tsukiko than I ever thought...lol, love the undead as her children thing, it's so funny!

:thog: Me sad, me misses Thog. Hope Thog got puppy for Christmas.

[EntilZha]

Oedipus wants no part of this webcomic, but he doesn't have a choice. At Hollamer: Zombie Gary Coleman.

As for the comic itself, What does it say about Tsukiko that she was able to get past the Paladin's Will Save with a 4th level spell?

It tells me she's got a pretty bloody high Intelligence score (assuming her arcane casting class is Wizard, naturally it'd be a high Charisma score if it's Sorcerer). Incidentally, Dominate Person is a 5th level spell.

[El_Jefe]

I despise DMs like you. The DM should not have "screw the players" as a goal, even less "screw one particular player." If you hate paladins that much, don't let your players take levels in the class; if you allow the class, don't pick on them. It's okay to present difficult choices but not no-win situations. (And I disagree that killing a pregnant monster would strip paladinhood.)

I agree here. I had it with DM's that think the game is about beating the players. If that's how you approach the game do everyone a favor and stay home and play computer games.

On the plus side DM's like that was what make me want to run my own games.

:thog: Really hope he got a puppy for Christmas!

[Requiem_Jeer]

What's Thanh's charisma score?

Paladins generally have high scores, but Thanh may have a lower one then most. +1 modifier, +2 tops.

Thanh seems abrasive to everyone (not just suspected evildoers), and his wisdom doesn't seem high (staying behind when he was told to flee), so his will save may not be good enough to save against the Domination.

[fractal]

She deliberately teleported a bunch of CR 3 Wights into the same area of as least one suspected Level 13+ PC and had them SPREAD OUT to search for the PCs....
Not that this would improve the survival chances of the wights, but a party of four level 9 PCs was arguably a lot more likely than a single level 13 PC.

Also, Belkar commented that the wights had good hit dice. Therefore, they may be advanced wights, with perhaps as many as 8 HD. That would make them... CR 4.

[Alfryd]

There is a distinction here. While a paladin has a general duty to right any wrong, he can/has to walk from most on the grounds that, among other things, there are more wrongs than he can possibly correct.
Yes, but then he's not walking away in any terribly conspicuous fashion. The major weakness of the paladin code is that it tends to have trouble seeing the big picture: Short term, close-range, specific and definite needs tend to outweigh long-term, far-ranging, statistical or likely needs.

However, having been involved in causing the wrong, however unwillingly, the paladin has a particular duty to right that wrong.
He may well feel that way, and it would probably be the most honourable course of action for him, but it's not an intrinsic requirement that I can see, should duty dictate otherwise.

Absent orders not to do anything, he is still a paladin with a duty to help the afflicted in general, and his fellow paladin in particular.
All of this requires a great deal more luck than we are likely to see, but it is within the rules.
Conceivably, but don't count on it.

[Necromancy]

These are elementals, not constructs.


Actually no that can be a fairly common misconception but don't feel bad because giant made the same error in the comic.

A construct, otherwise known as a golem is a body physically created and through ritual a spirit from the elemental plane of earth is trapped inside to animate the body. They only come into being by creation by a spellcaster and theoretically can be created from any singular solid element or substance. Common golem examples are Bone, Clay, Doll, Flesh, Gargoyle, Guardian, Iron, Scarecrow, and Stone. For liquid and gaseous golems...... I'm gonna say a solid no to that one but it's more or less up to the DM.

An elemental is a sentient being, summoned to our plane from one of the inner planes ( Fire Smoke Magma Steam Radiance Ash Smoke Air Dust Mist Lightning Vacuum Magma Dust Earth Ooze Minerals Grime Steam Mist Ooze Water Rainbows Ice Radiance Lightning Minerals Rainbows Positive Shadows Ash Vacuum Grime Ice Shadows Negative ). Most elementals have at least average intelligence even if they aren't able to communicate with us directly. Otherwise the popular ones are about the only ones we know anything about. Examples would include the Invisible Stalker, Kuo-Toa, Crimson Death, Triton, Xorn, Arctic Tempest, Salamander, etc..

[fractal]

Actually no that can be a fairly common misconception but don't feel bad because giant made the same error in the comic.

A construct, otherwise known as a golem is a body physically created and through ritual a spirit from the elemental plane of earth is trapped inside to animate the body. They only come into being by creation by a spellcaster and theoretically can be created from any singular solid element or substance. Common golem examples are Bone, Clay, Doll, Flesh, Gargoyle, Guardian, Iron, Scarecrow, and Stone. For liquid and gaseous golems...... I'm gonna say a solid no to that one but it's more or less up to the DM.

An elemental is a sentient being, summoned to our plane from one of the inner planes ( Fire Smoke Magma Steam Radiance Ash Smoke Air Dust Mist Lightning Vacuum Magma Dust Earth Ooze Minerals Grime Steam Mist Ooze Water Rainbows Ice Radiance Lightning Minerals Rainbows Positive Shadows Ash Vacuum Grime Ice Shadows Negative ). Most elementals have at least average intelligence even if they aren't able to communicate with us directly. Otherwise the popular ones are about the only ones we know anything about. Examples would include the Invisible Stalker, Kuo-Toa, Crimson Death, Triton, Xorn, Arctic Tempest, Salamander, etc..
I'm afraid that it is you who are mistaken. The most common elemental creatures in the SRD are the Earth, Fire, Water, and Air elementals. Their intelligence ranges from 4-10, with 4 and 6 applying to all but the largest elementals. The Giant's "element" elementals are based off of these, but using the periodic table rather than the four "classical" elements. We don't know where Redcloak summoned them from, but perhaps they do originate from the elemental plane of Titanium, etc.

P.S. Incidentally, golems are just a subset of constructs, which typically represent any formerly inanimate object brought into motion by magic, other than undead.

[Lizard Lord]

I have trouble understanding this. Tsukiko just did an extraordinarily creeptacular and highly cruel thing.

Exactly!
That is awesome!

[Lumenadducere]

Great strip as usual. Kinda interested in both what Belkar spotted and what Tsukiko is going to do with Thanh.

Hopefully Belkar will follow Tsukiko and step in when needed. We'll see, though.

[fractal]

Hopefully Belkar will follow Tsukiko and step in when needed. We'll see, though.
Yeah, this is Belkar's chance to beat on a paladin with no negative repercussions. Even the paladin would approve! Go, Belkar!

[otakuryoga]

Bee-Yoo-Teefull

and now let the speculation commence as to :belkar: "what i think it is" might be

[Synthia]

She deliberately teleported a bunch of CR 3 Wights into the same area of as least one suspected Level 13+ PC and had them SPREAD OUT to search for the PCs....

This is being nice to them? I'd hate to see her being nasty to them. Baring killing them herself I have trouble seeing just what she can do to them that's MORE likely to get them killed.

Well, it's not like she intended to get them killed... I don't think she has a very good ability to think ahead very well or perhaps her logics are just a tad bit messed up :smallbiggrin: suppose that she could have expected all the hobgoblins to still be around when she arrived. So, maybe she is nice to them until she has to "use them up" like sending soldiers to war.

[otakuryoga]

ok....I would like to officially start the movement to get a Tsukiko smiley face added to the available options....replace the :miko: one if necessary...after all we are well rid of her now

[Warlord JK]

I love it when people don't get metaphors

[Glorytome]

Maybe the whole reason of Belkar being in the resistance is because they lost the body of Roy and his spot check might be roy!

[sealemon]

Awesome strip! "He made me feel funny inside"=instant classic.





What I want to know is of what use the twelve gods are. They don't seem to have done anything useful in defense of their followers or the world and threat to their own existence.

They provide their paladins and clerics with spells every single day! They work their divine fingers/claws/ect. to the bone, and what have YOU done for Saphire City lately? In an unrelated note, my mom's coming over for a visit. *rimshot*



The body of Miko, which Belkar wants to use to really wreck our PG rating?
Otherwise, I am not sure there are many NPCs that Belkar knows personally. He is not into deep relationships, unless you count how deep he wants to put the knife into you.
Maybe a whore who gives a discount?


Nope. It's gonna be the Eye of Fear and Flame, all duct taped and rezzed by Tsukiko on a whim, who then got mad at it because it didn't adore her, so she randomly teleported it away...ummm...into a grainery.

Seriously, I have no idea what it could be beyond some sort of killing aid (The only thing that really gets Belkar excited like that). For some reason though, I did think "Skully!" for just a sec before I remembered what happened to him. Poor, poor Skully.

[Paladin29]

Aaarg, a paladin being dominated by a foul spell of an evil sorcerer, it´s a destiny worst than death. I hope that somebody slain Tsukiko and her creatures and free Thahn. :smallfrown:

[Ganurath]

Aaarg, a paladin being dominated by a foul spell of an evil sorcerer, it´s a destiny worst than death. I hope that somebody slain Tsukiko and her creatures and free Thahn. :smallfrown:What? Captain Mustache is barely a named character, and you want to off it for Haley's newest personal rival? Blasphe- Er, Holy Word!

Incidentally, somebody needs to make an Evil Charlie's Angel parody featuring Sabine, Tsukiko, and Therkla: Burlew's Devils.

[pondshadow]

maybe he has false whatever its called from unearthed arcana, and belkar definitly saw the drunk wizard disguised as miko disguised as a demon cockroach

[Morty]

Aaarg, a paladin being dominated by a foul spell of an evil sorcerer, it´s a destiny worst than death.

Which is why it's so great.:smallbiggrin:

[FilmNoir62]

Wouldn't it be cool if the Belkster found some sort of item that freed him from the Mark of Justice? We probably wouldn't even find out about it until he backstabbed our mystic theurge friend with no explanation or penalties... just a thought. I do find this guess wildly unlikely, though.

Small side note - this strip completely derails the remote possibility that Thanh is a Paladin of Freedom, as they are completely immune to any sort of compulsion.

[Porthos]

ok....I would like to officially start the movement to get a Tsukiko smiley face added to the available options....replace the :miko: one if necessary...after all we are well rid of her now

You could always use the one made from The Custom Smilies Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34131). :smallwink:

Here's the one that someone made for Tsukiko: http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png

Just copy the image address and put it in tags. :smallsmile:

[Dartonus]

Ya know, Tsukiko, being both a cleric and wizard, qualifies for the true necromancer prestige class. I wonder if she knows that?
*Opens plothole into comic*
HEY TSUKIKO! CATCH!
*Tosses Tsukiko Libris Mortis*

[fractal]

Ya know, Tsukiko, being both a cleric and wizard, qualifies for the true necromancer prestige class. I wonder if she knows that?
*Opens plothole into comic*
HEY TSUKIKO! CATCH!
*Tosses Tsukiko Libris Mortis*
We don't actually know that those are her classes. She could be a Sorcerer and Favored Soul, for example, or perhaps even a Bard and a Druid (highly unlikely, as that particular combination can't create undead).

Still, does it really seem to you like Tsukiko has both a high Wisdom and a high Intelligence? This is kind of the problem with making mental characteristics do double-duty as spellcasting attributes; you can have a good fighter with poor Strength and Dexterity, but you can't have a good Cleric with low or even decent Wisdom. The problem only gets worse with MAD classes like Mystic Theurge that require multiple stats with high values.

Maybe the Giant will parody it for us.

[Ganurath]

I think she's a Sorc/Cleric, by merit of how she's very grounded and thought out in her personal philosophy and able to make a persuasive argument for it... relatively speaking.

[Tre of the Wood]

Yay! A first ed. reference :smallbiggrin: ! Unfortunently, however, it wasn't that funny otherwise. Meh.

[AyuVince]

Yhea! I mean, she doesn't even need boots.
She can fly!:smallannoyed:

She needs them as a fashion statement. Ever seen a goth girl without black boots?

Either Thanh is really low level, or Tsukiko has frightening stats. He's a paladin, he should have top saves, but he took quite a lot of damage from that Flamestrike, and couldn't resist Dominate Person, which requires a Will save (good Paladin base save + high wisdom + Divine Grace bonus). I wonder if she has Greater Spell Focus or similar feats.

[David Argall]

Either Thanh is really low level, or Tsukiko has frightening stats. He's a paladin, he should have top saves, but he took quite a lot of damage from that Flamestrike, and couldn't resist Dominate Person, which requires a Will save (good Paladin base save + high wisdom + Divine Grace bonus). I wonder if she has Greater Spell Focus or similar feats.

Paladins should have good will saves, but the rules say they don't. Like other fighters, they only have good fort. So Thanh is lucky to have a total of +6 to the will save. And Tsukiko probably requires a DC of 18 or 19. So he was an underdog to save. She will have to watch what orders she gives him, because he is about 50-50 to make the next save, but it was no shock that she won this time.

[*Templar*]

I certainly hope this won't spell the end of Thanh, as I'm quite fond of the guy. His dialogue is so wonderfully overwrought.

[Senko]

You also have glass, crystal and Calzone golems.

I'd also like to comment that this gives a new meaning to the term lich loved. She doesn't need to make love to them because they love her like a parent already.

Also I'm not sure the chart was saying there were level 13 PC's in the area but that it was an either or. Either the challenge is level 13+ or there is a high chance of PC's. I'd also like to point out that she sent them out in pairs and as wights a few touches is all they need to drop the opponents level down to equivilent to them.

Also
I'm not sure how our author is doing it but it may be possible she's not worried about them dieing as she can always raise them again as undead. I'm fairly sure that's against the official rules but we've had divergences before.

[EntilZha]

We don't actually know that those are her classes. She could be a Sorcerer and Favored Soul, for example, or perhaps even a Bard and a Druid (highly unlikely, as that particular combination can't create undead).

Still, does it really seem to you like Tsukiko has both a high Wisdom and a high Intelligence? This is kind of the problem with making mental characteristics do double-duty as spellcasting attributes; you can have a good fighter with poor Strength and Dexterity, but you can't have a good Cleric with low or even decent Wisdom. The problem only gets worse with MAD classes like Mystic Theurge that require multiple stats with high values.

Maybe the Giant will parody it for us.

The fastest way to the Mystic Theurge PrC is three levels of Wizard and Cleric. Any other combo is just too inefficient for qualifying for the class in a reasonable time frame. Going the MT path is a pretty substantial time investment for a PC, so it seems to me Tsukiko would want to get to the PrC as quickly as she could.

[David Argall]

She deliberately teleported a bunch of CR 3 Wights into the same area of as least one suspected Level 13+ PC and had them SPREAD OUT to search for the PCs....

This is being nice to them? I'd hate to see her being nasty to them. Baring killing them herself I have trouble seeing just what she can do to them that's MORE likely to get them killed.

We're talking about a member of team evil, which plays rough. No doubt she calls it tough love.

[Ridureyu]

I'm pretty sure I detected at least a hint of sarcasm in that post, if not quite a lot more.





Actually, yeah. Then I compounded matters by forgetting I even posted the thing until now.

"Every paladin should fall" is OF COURSE sarcasm.