OOTS #572 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Szilard]

I like how Eugene is playing now.:smalltongue:

[tanis]

Fun as always, Giant :)

{scrubbed}

[Behold_the_Void]

I like the heavenly 1st ed games they're running. Good times.

[Lira]

I'm so happy that Belkar's going to be dying soon. Well, hopefully soon.

[Oregano]

Noooo, not the Belkster!:smallfrown:


"That's an in-comic year, oracle fans":smallwink:

[Elder Tsofu]

Great as always. :smallsmile:
Hehe, so you theought that about the time needed clarification? But I suppose it stopped a few potential debates. :smalltongue:

But who knows, belkar might become a undead - they don't breath do they? :smallconfused:

[Laurellien]

Thank goodness that Belkar will be dying soon.

[SPoD]

Thank goodness that Belkar will be dying soon.

Um, not exactly.

An in-comic year could be the entire remaining run of the comic. Belkar could die in the very last OOTS comic ever 4-5 years from now, and as long as less than a year of time had passed for the characters, this prophecy would be fulfilled.

[Pandabear]

Fourth wall alert!

[Quezovercoatl]

Something tels me that Belkars death won't get played straight.

[Lerky]

hm... Roy remembering every thing that happened isn't gonna be much use to him or anyone else... unless I'm forgetting something.

[Saint Nil]

*Clears throught*

Attention Mr.Giant,

your are under arrest for the abuse and mistreatment of the fourth wall.
You have the right to an attorny,
You have the right to remain silent.
You have the right for the two lawyers to come and find a loophole to defend you.


:smalltongue:Anyway, great comic, I loved the argument between Eugene and Roy's rchon.

[Fitzclowningham]

Hmmm...

The oracle says "draw his last breath" - I wonder if that's to leave room for Belkar becoming undead.

Loving all the updates!

[JMobius]

Awesome comic, but I have to doubt that Roy retaining his memories is unintentional. Given the Magnificent Bastard score of the Oracle up to this point, such a blatant oversight seems unlikely, though what purpose it could serve I do not know.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hmmm...

The oracle says "draw his last breath" - I wonder if that's to leave room for Belkar becoming undead.

Loving all the updates!

God, I hope not - that may be an Epic Level Challenge... maybe even take on Orcus :smalleek:

Also:
"Captain, the fourth wall, she can't take much more of this"
"Divert power to deflector shields!"
"But Captain, I donnae have the power!"

[Lerky]

what if the orcale did know Roy would remember and actually said something just to mess stuff up for fun. Also, it is agreeable that Belkar may come back as an undead figure.

[Warren Dew]

But I suppose it stopped a few potential debates. :smalltongue:

I don't know about that ... we have evidence now that the Oracle may be fallible, since he seemed to expect that the memory charm would work.

[Rad]

Great, so we know that the oracle's side comments are important as well...
Oh, and that he's likely to have picked UMD as a class skill.

Great strip anyway!

EDIT:
Oh, and Belkar mught get turned into a construct, thus unable to eat another birthday cake and not aging - thus not needing IRA funding. Oh, and not breathing of course.

[HZ514]

"They did!" Haha awesome strip.

[Anthea]

As for Roy remembering everything... will he still remember the afterlife if he ever gets resurrected?

[Trizap]

now theres gonna be theories of how Belkar is going to die, and such.

[AIGuy]

To the oracle, leaving Roy with the knowledge was probably unintentional, as it was unavoidable; Roy wasn't going anywhere unless he was dismissed.

[SPoD]

I don't know about that ... we have evidence now that the Oracle may be fallible, since he seemed to expect that the memory charm would work.

Not at all. We have evidence of one of two things:

1.) That the Oracle is always right WHEN he looks into the future, but he must consciously choose to look. As in, he's not omniscient, he needs to choose to view particular facts in order to know about them.

OR

2.) Roy thinks #1 is true, but it is not and the Oracle is misleading Roy in some way by allowing him to keep his memories.

Neither one of those implies that the Oracle's actual visions of the future will in any way fail to come to pass.

[carais]

What does he mean, should have checked the map? Or is this just one of those things revealed later? Like, until the end of the in-comic-year.

Plus, poor wall. I mourn your demise. Again. I wonder someone still raises you, considering how often you have to die here.

[nagora]

DMG p82. :smallwink:

[SteveMB]

your are under arrest for the abuse and mistreatment of the fourth wall.

Rooms without a fourth wall are popular in the village of Lick...ling.


What does he mean, should have checked the map? Or is this just one of those things revealed later? Like, until the end of the in-comic-year.

It's a gibe at Belkar for not knowing that he was inside a village, and thus at risk of setting off the MoJ.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

I'm probably being dense, but when did Roy go to the Oracle before as a ghost? Unless the point is that we never saw it happen because he forgot about it, in which case never mind.

[foil_fedora]

Thank goodness that Belkar will be dying soon.

Ah, but the oracle didn't say the belkster would *die*, just that he'll draw his last breath - ever.

He might just achieve some sort of ascension (or more likely 'descent') into demi-godhood (I'm assuming here that breathing is optional for immortals)...

"I am a sexy, shoeless god of war".

...or, in the grand tradition of intergenerational heroic fiction, one of the party of heroes needs to split off and become the villain for the next generation... Belkar is certainly qualified, maybe when Xykon is finally vanquished, Belkar finds the only existing copy of "Lich-hood for Dummies (by Redcloak)" and reads it...

All-in-all, if there's a more dramatic spin the Giant can put on "draw his last breath", I'm sure he will.

Unless he decides on the double-reverse twist to put the smackdown on this kind of speculation, and goes with a simple, literal death...


"I clearly cannot choose the glass in front of you..."

[carais]

-- accidental double post due to server error msg the first time --

[Edgehopper]

I'm probably being dense, but when did Roy go to the Oracle before as a ghost? Unless the point is that we never saw it happen because he forgot about it, in which case never mind.

Twice--once with Durkon before adding the rest of the party, and once with the rest of the party. The time with Durkon was when he dangled the Oracle out the window. See Comic 329. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

[Ikialev]

I Can See Dead Belkarz

[Ghill]

*ahem*

Updating spree! WOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Warren Dew]

Not at all. We have evidence of one of two things:

1.) That the Oracle is always right WHEN he looks into the future, but he must consciously choose to look. As in, he's not omniscient, he needs to choose to view particular facts in order to know about them.

OR

2.) Roy thinks #1 is true, but it is not and the Oracle is misleading Roy in some way by allowing him to keep his memories.

Neither one of those implies that the Oracle's actual visions of the future will in any way fail to come to pass.

I still count 1.) as being fallible, thus "may be fallible". But also possible is

3. )Oracle speaking in green doesn't constitute a real prediction. We didn't see Tiamat summoned, and there was no question. This might also explain why the Oracle got rid of Roy in a way that he remembered everything, since if it's not a real prediction, the memory charm would have gotten rid of it.

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with 2.), but I don't think it's a 100% sure thing.

[Liliedhe]

Well, at least Belkar WILL buy the farm eventually. I can't say I'm sad about that - in fact, I'M pretty ecstatic. :smallbiggrin:

[Lira]

I'm probably being dense, but when did Roy go to the Oracle before as a ghost? Unless the point is that we never saw it happen because he forgot about it, in which case never mind.The panel where the oracle makes the prediction isn't a flashback, he was doing it at that moment for Roy to prove he wasn't lying about Belkar's death.

[SPoD]

I'm probably being dense, but when did Roy go to the Oracle before as a ghost? Unless the point is that we never saw it happen because he forgot about it, in which case never mind.

He didn't, he went as a live human, twice: once before the comic started with just Durkon and once last year with the whole party. Last time he was there as a person, the Oracle implied that Belkar was going to die soon (the "don't bother funding your IRA" and "enjoy your next birthday cake" comments), but everyone forgot it.

EDIT: Ninja'd by a mile.

[HellFireXS]

I'm probably being dense, but when did Roy go to the Oracle before as a ghost? Unless the point is that we never saw it happen because he forgot about it, in which case never mind.

He's been there Twice while living and this once as a ghost in the last batch of comics, but what makes you think he's been there as a Ghost before this?

[kerberos]

*Hopes for vampiric Belkar*

[Oregano]

Speculation ahoy! it's probably already been said.


The Oracle is manipulating Roy into killing Belkar which is why he let Roy keep his memory, that way he'll remember how evil Belkar's become and may kill him or the Oracle knows of another event that requires Roy's memory to be intact and will cause Roy to kill Belkar.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

Oh, and Belkar mught get turned into a construct, thus unable to eat another birthday cake and not aging - thus not needing IRA funding. Oh, and not breathing of course.

Belkar's a terrorist?!?

Anyway, the possibility of Belkar becoming undead is way up after this comic, although my prediction about this theory is that it will become another one of Rich's jokes about his fans, like how the "Ring of Jumping caused Roy to die" theory got lampooned a couple of comics back.

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh noes! Belkar's going to die before the end of the year!
Wait we knew that.
Roy is going to have trouble explaining to the rest of the group that the oracle set off the MoJ.

[Griemont]

Oracle fans :smallbiggrin: I'd have to count myself as one of those, now.


Also, I liked seeing dead people in a D&D-esque world argue about death rules in D&D :smallamused:

[Xykon_Fan]

Oh, and...there are a fair amount of magic items that stop you from having to breathe, just so you know.

Not saying that's necessarily the case, but it could be, and it would be The Giant's style.

[Shatteredtower]

My speculation about Belkar's fate:

Based on the Oracle's wording ("Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year."), I think the halfling is going to wind up as Snarl-chow.

Between wish and true resurrection, nearly anything else is reversible for someone Belkar's age. Never mind that it's unlikely that anyone would ever cast either spell on the ranger's behalf -- all that matters is that they provide a chance for someone to start him breathing again sometime within the next two centuries.

With the Snarl involved, "ever" is completely certain.

[Selene]

Interesting as it might be to have an undead Belkar running around, the Oracle also said he's "not long for this world." Undead are still in the world, aren't they?

Also, the Oracle never said Roy was going to lose his memory this time. What makes people think he didn't know Roy would keep his memory? He just did the trance thing so it counted as an "official" prediction. That may just have been to make sure Roy knew it was true.

I feel like the Giant is spoiling us with all these updates. :smallbiggrin:

[kukn]

Unbelievable. Yet another strip. Yet another great strip.

I'm totally piqued as to what will be happening when Roy comes back from the dead...

[SPoD]

My speculation about Belkar's fate:

Based on the Oracle's wording ("Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year."), I think the halfling is going to wind up as Snarl-chow.

Between wish and true resurrection, nearly anything else is reversible for someone Belkar's age. Never mind that it's unlikely that anyone would ever cast either spell on the ranger's behalf -- all that matters is that they provide a chance for someone to start him breathing again sometime within the next two centuries.

With the Snarl involved, "ever" is completely certain.

Interesting idea, but...
...whether someone CAN use true resurrection at some point in the far future is not actually relevant here: the Oracle has looked forward and seen that no one DOES use it. This isn't a case of probability or possibility, it's a case of certainty. He looked at the future; it doesn't happen. End of story. Why doesn't it happen? Who knows? It doesn't matter.

Remember too that this is a comic with a finite span; if it ends with Belkar dead, we now have the Oracle's word that someone won't raise him after the comic's last panel. That alone is reason enough to word it that way.

Not saying that he might not end up Snarl-food anyway, just that nothing about the "ever" implies it.

[Mc. Lovin']

That poor 4th wall is in need of some serious repair!

The panel where the Oracle shamelessly broke said wall seemed a bit needless (I mean we could have figured it out), and ... cheap, really.

Still, liked the rest of the comic.

Also I think I can see who's journey this storyline is about (No Cure for paladin blues being about Roy, War and Exps being about Elan.) This one's gonna be about Belkar

[d'Bwobsling]

The way I see it, Belkar will
a) Die and not get resurected as was predicted
b) Aplly a construct or undead templete (or ooze but I don't think that's very likely)
c) The oracle was lying
d) something completely unexpected will happen

A, and D are most likely. Either he'll die in an OOTS year which will be a lot longer than a real year (the entire strip has taken place in estimate 4 or 5 months), or The Giant will throws us an unexpeted twist

[SPoD]

Also, the Oracle never said Roy was going to lose his memory this time. What makes people think he didn't know Roy would keep his memory?

Because he specifically says so in Panel 7: "You'll forget everything else when you pass through the memory charm."

[dbmeboy]

As for Roy remembering everything... will he still remember the afterlife if he ever gets resurrected?

OotPC and SoD Spoilers:

On page 33 of OotPC, Eugene tells us that he has learned that the oath follows him into the afterlife. At the end of SoD we see him learning about that while in the afterlife. Thus, it would seem that he was able to remember at least something from there.

[Holammer]

Man I laughed when the oracle talked to the readers there. Now, I like the oracle. But I do hope they somehow mess up his prophesies. He is a bit too accurate for an oracle.

[VForVaarsuvius]

Love the breaking of the fourth wall. But I'm somehow sure that the Oracle has something more up his sleeve even though Roy remembers...

And as for Belkar, well, that's another thread.

[Wreckingrocc]

That was great.
Two things I liked about it, 1 thing I disliked.
I liked:
1. Belkar will die. Soon.
2. It was very funny. I laughed twice.
I disliked:
Belkar will not be dead in a year, but rather, in probably 2 and a half :smallfrown:

But it was good. Plot progression, and 2 very funny jokes. Keep up the great work!

[Oslecamo]

Belkar will have the honor of becoming Xykon's ultimate death knight of DOOM!

[Ghastly Epigram]

Loved the fourth wall breakage from the Oracle. Hehe. I like that guy more and more each strip. :smallbiggrin: Poor Belkar though.


Also I think I can see who's journey this storyline is about (No Cure for paladin blues being about Roy, War and Exps being about Elan.) This one's gonna be about Belkar

Ooh, I had not thought about that, good point you have there. Though, War and XPs was almost certainly about Haley, not Elan (I think Dungeon Crawlin' Fools was about Elan actually, wasn't it? Which makes sense, in a way). The more I think about it, the more it makes sense in my head, thinking back through this book's strips so far. And actually, that makes the argument that Belkar will die sooner rather than later. What better a way to end Belkar's journey than his death?

[ideasmith]

Because he specifically says so in Panel 7: "You'll forget everything else when you pass through the memory charm."

But the oracle knew when he said that that Roy would not "pass through the memory charm" right away, if ever again. He was obviously playing with Roy's head. Again.



On another note: Don't D&D characters forget what the afterlife is like when they are raised?

[carebearbecky]

Very enjoyable and opens up a variety of threads which we will no doubt see as soon as the boards can keep up with all the people that are going to want to comment upon this.

And I love to hate Belkar, so I'm very intregued as to how this is all going to play out.

:smallbiggrin:

[Dunesen]

I really don't want to start down the rabbit-hole of what will happen to Belkar, not after getting the basic mechanics of the MoJ wrong in the 571 thread.

But I would like to say that re: panel 6, the Giant is f***ing with us. He's taunting us. Two years minimum before the in-comic year ends. At least.

[maxon]

Belkar's a terrorist?!?

Well, this being an American comic, I'd go with something like I ....... Retirement Allowance/Account, something like that. Only the British/Irish automatically see it as Irish Republican Army.

So what was the point of the Oracle visit then? Despite the fact it was a joy to see him, it doesn't seem to have got us very far. I suppose we have to wait and see. :smallsmile:

[M i M c]

Awesome job with the comic!
@ Dunsen: I don't know about 2 IRL years equalling 1 OOTS year...
After about 10 strips, Roy had been in Heaven for 3 months or something like that.

Then again, it all depends on The Giant's perception of time, cause sometimes each panel is only a few seconds and others its looong.
So he COULD play around with the time a bit. We'll see in the future!

[MReav]

I doubt Belkar is going to be turned into an Undead. The Oracle said that he shouldn't bother funding an IRA, which implies he's not going to have any use for money. Immortal beings are known for taking long hiatuses from the world, so he's likely not going to survive something, and then be rendered in a form that has no use for money (either unintelligent undead, or destroyed soul, or captured soul that won't be released until he's passed any chance of being revived)

[Shatteredtower]

Interesting idea, but...

No buts. I already addressed the issues. There is only one certain end of story. The others are probable ends, and the Oracle isn't likely to be contradicted in them, but they allow for the possibility.

In a case like this, you take the sure bet. (The Giant might be wishing he'd done the same for Miko some days. :smallwink: ) "The Oracle said it," isn't sure enough for narrative purposes. It allows too many outs to the author.

[Dunesen]

Awesome job with the comic!
@ Dunsen: I don't know about 2 IRL years equalling 1 OOTS year...
After about 10 strips, Roy had been in Heaven for 3 months or something like that.

Then again, it all depends on The Giant's perception of time, cause sometimes each panel is only a few seconds and others its looong.
So he COULD play around with the time a bit. We'll see in the future!

I don't expect the three months thing to happen again anytime soon. For now, I'm excepting that the focus will be on Haley/Belkar/Celia or V/Elan/Durkon. Maybe we'll get more of Xykon and Redcloak, but not for anything insignificant. The O-Chun story established why they haven't left for the next gate already, and that's something that could be delayed until the team is reunited (or shortly before). In other words, from a plot construction standpoint, there's no need to return to the villains until the current plot with Roy dead is resolved.

So far there hasn't been anything to set up a reunion for the living members of the team yet, and I seriously doubt the Giant will just pull out something quick and effective to end the arc sooner rather than later.

It could be the fall of this year that the team gets back together, and that's just for this current arc.

[kunou126]

But the oracle knew when he said that that Roy would not "pass through the memory charm" right away, if ever again. He was obviously playing with Roy's head. Again.


Exactly. Nothing about what the oracle said required Roy to pass through the memory charm at this moment. Its a clear prediction that Roy will at some point pass through the memory charm again (the Oracle said "when") but makes no indication as to when "when" will be...

[Arkenputtyknife]

"Lodestone"? I don't think that's the right word. A lodestone is a piece of magnetized mineral, or metaphorically a point of attraction. It's not normally a liability. None of this applies to Belkar. Or is there some other meaning of "lodestone" of which I am unaware?

Edit: "Millstone" would be nearer the mark.


What does he mean, should have checked the map?
I think the meaning is that if Belkar had checked a map, he'd have known about the village and wouldn't have attempted the murder.

Maps in the world of OotS must be a heck of a lot better than the ones in the real world. I mean, I've never seen a map that's merely a week out of date.


Ah, but the oracle didn't say the belkster would *die*, just that he'll draw his last breath - ever.
He also said, "your pal isn't long for this world". That doesn't mesh well with carrying on as a construct, lich, or other intelligent undead.

[PhallicWarrior]

This'll change...nothing. Roy still can't do anything, and Belkar is completely useless now. (OK, I guess that is a change.) Still, I sorta started to like the Oracle. GS, Giant

[Remirach]

The Giant's really been hitting them all out of the park lately! Love it.

So who do you suppose is the important client that will be flying in? Anybody we know? Or more fuel for the "nine sides" debate? Could it be Xykon? It's weak, but we do know he knows the overland flight spell... although it seems odd that he'd be flying in when Tsukiko could Teleport him. That plus the "say hi to your boss," whoever that is. The Oracle definitely has his fingers in a lot of pies...

I love the Oracle's little winking aside to the "Oracle fans." Since he can see everything, he must indeed know how popular he's become here on the boards.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Or is there some other meaning of "lodestone" of which I am unaware?

Something that weighs you down, holds you back, and screws you over. I know there's a 'your mom' joke in there somewhere.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Something that weighs you down, holds you back, and screws you over.
That's not a recognized meaning of "lodestone" as far as I know. Lodestones don't have that effect. Millstones, on the other hand…

[The Gremlin]

Hilarious. I suspect that Belkar's death will not be as cheerful as it appears, though...

[Wreckingrocc]

It would be cool if he looked into a mirror, tried to stab himself. Seeing that the man inside the passageway blocked his dagger with one of his own, he stabs again. Soon, he gets into an epic battle with himself lasting 3 months, and eventually his lungs collapsed. Then he gets hooked up to an iron lung. Technically, he wouldn't be taking his own breaths, so the prophecy would come true. That would be epic.

[Aevii]

My prediction is that the outcome will be akin to being a judge for a gorgon beauty contest.

[chiasaur11]

Ah, The Oracle. Good planner, and living proof that being a low level monster manual only race does not doom you to a life as mere XP packets.
And he acknowledges his fans. Classy.

[SPoD]

That's not a recognized meaning of "lodestone" as far as I know. Lodestones don't have that effect. Millstones, on the other hand…

You're looking for a real world definition in a D&D joke. In most editions of D&D, there is a cursed magic item called a "loadstone" that magically increases your encumbrance to maximum (i.e. a heavy load). This is a reference to that, although the spelling is wrong.

[Niknokitueu]

Liked the comic.

Heh. Nice how Roy is a better player than his dad. Not surprisingly, his dad is trying to weasle out of being dead... :smallwink:

At least when Roy is raised (make that eventually raised), he will be able to tell everyone that Belkar has activated the MoJ.

Mind you, if I was Roy, I wouldn't volunteer this bit of info - Belkar is only reaping what he sowed, after all.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. ain't it funny how I always seem to have just the right magic item here in my robe?... (snicker)

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Guys, stop arguing about this crap. When has rich EVER given away a plot twist? Sure, the undead thing is possible, but I think It will be something different from that. The Oracle knows everything about the future, so why did Roy not forget? I dont really see how this helped him out, but I think something much more sinister is goin on.

And is it just me, or is the comic updated more frequently now than usual??

[disorder]

You're looking for a real world definition in a D&D joke. In most editions of D&D, there is a cursed magic item called a "loadstone" that magically increases your encumbrance to maximum (i.e. a heavy load). This is a reference to that, although the spelling is wrong.
And I always assumed that the D&D "loadstone" was a pun on the word "lodestone" (in the magnetized-rock sense), so the oracle's spelling might just be his way of belaboring the pun. He's not one to go for subtle humor.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

oh, and a Lodestone is a natural magnet, therfor It implies that Roy is always stuck with Belkar, nomatter what he does. I mean even when he's dead, belkar is Bein an @$$

[Ninja]

indeed this is a posting streak.... i love it....
as for the comic it's great... i saw someone say it doesn't count as areal prophecy... sure it does... just because we didn't see Tiamat doesn't mean she wasn't there... like in comic number 331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) you don't see her while he os answering the q's... just when he ask's her for the power....
oh yes and i think he can see the future all the time, but he only asks for Tiamat cuz people only seem to remember the things he says when his speech buble is green... so i think Tiamat gives him that green voice so customers remember it...

oh yeah and i love it how i started the Oracle fanclab like..... yesterday... and he already knows i'm here!!!

now for the Belkar part: "Noooooooo!!!! Why "The Belkster"? Now who will reign death on innocent gnomes?"....

oh and can some1 explain me this "4th wall is broken" thingy? what's da forth wall? and how do you break it?

[SPoD]

No buts. I already addressed the issues. There is only one certain end of story. The others are probable ends, and the Oracle isn't likely to be contradicted in them, but they allow for the possibility.

In a case like this, you take the sure bet. (The Giant might be wishing he'd done the same for Miko some days. :smallwink: ) "The Oracle said it," isn't sure enough for narrative purposes. It allows too many outs to the author.

You are placing a lot of weight behind your unfounded assumption that the author cares even one bit about what possible events we readers might imagine happening 200 years after he's finished the story, and will construct his story in such a way as to preclude any other interpretation. For example, you assume that he wishes he had finalized Miko's death, but what evidence do you have that he feels that way? None, you're just projecting onto him the feelings you or others have about it. He may enjoy the ambiguity of it exactly as it is. Just because YOU find it to be "not sure enough" doesn't mean he agrees. I can think of lots of stories that end with ambiguous interpretations of what will happen next, why should this story be guaranteed to not be the same way?

If he tells us through a character who can see the future that "X never happens" then X never happens (assuming the Oracle has no margin for error). The fact that X is theoretically possible doesn't matter; it never happens. Period.

[Remirach]

oh and can some1 explain me this "4th wall is broken" thingy? what's da forth wall? and how do you break it?

A fictional character "breaks the forth wall" when he or she (or it or whatever) addresses the audience directly, like the Oracle winking and explaining things to the "Oracle fans."

It comes from a stage term, since on a stage you have three walls plus an invisible "forth wall" separating the actors from the audience.

[Ninja]

A fictional character "breaks the forth wall" when he or she (or it or whatever) addresses the audience directly, like the Oracle winking and explaining things to the "Oracle fans."

It comes from a stage term, since on a stage you have three walls plus an invisible "forth wall" separating the actors from the audience.

thank you for your explanation.....

[Arkenputtyknife]

You're looking for a real world definition in a D&D joke. In most editions of D&D, there is a cursed magic item called a "loadstone" that magically increases your encumbrance to maximum (i.e. a heavy load). This is a reference to that, although the spelling is wrong.
That makes sense; I'd forgotten about loadstones. On the other hand, lodestones made many appearances in my AD&D campaigns back in the early '80s, so I wasn't entirely thinking "real world".


And I always assumed that the D&D "loadstone" was a pun on the word "lodestone" (in the magnetized-rock sense), so the oracle's spelling might just be his way of belaboring the pun. He's not one to go for subtle humor.
Roy said it, not the Oracle. And it's Rich's spelling. The question is whether it was a mistake.

[Pandabear]

*mental image of a lich Belkar as a sort of Mini-me complete with little Xykon themed robe and cloak*

[sihnfahl]

Hm, did Eugene play Roy's gnome illusionist while Roy was with the Oracle and accidentally kill him?

That *censored*!

[Gamebird]

Roy may well remember what the Oracle says now, but when he wakes up from being dead, after a Raise/Resurrection/etc., he may forget it then just like most/all creatures do not remember their time in the afterlife.

[ideasmith]

oh and can some1 explain me this "4th wall is broken" thingy? what's da forth wall? and how do you break it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall

[Eric]

Ah, but the oracle didn't say the belkster would *die*, just that he'll draw his last breath - ever.

Anyone remember which comic the questions were asked in? 'cos this seems to be an attempt at an action-replay but as far as I recall, that isn't what the Oracle said.

[Admiral_Kelly]

New comic is up.Would it kill you to say something else once in awhile after updating a comic? Okay, so you do, and you probably have better things to be doing than thinking of new comic's-up posts...

Meh, getting off-topic.

Except for those in denial (or those who have overlooked the seventh and eight panels of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)), we all knew Belkar's death was coming for awhile; this only means we are getting closer to it. Now we also know Belkar will not be resurrected ("Belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year." - Oracle); although he may still come back as an undead.

[Eric]

Roy may well remember what the Oracle says now, but when he wakes up from being dead, after a Raise/Resurrection/etc., he may forget it then just like most/all creatures do not remember their time in the afterlife.

But the conversation with the Oracle wasn't IN the afterlife.

There's still plenty of hole to loop, if needed.

[Kwarkpudding]

Loved it, and I'm glad at least something useful...ish came of the trip to the oracle. Also I thought the part with Eugene complained about the rules is great. :smallsmile:


*mental image of a lich Belkar as a sort of Mini-me complete with little Xykon themed robe and cloak*

:smallbiggrin:

[Ninja]

But the conversation with the Oracle wasn't IN the afterlife.

There's still plenty of hole to loop, if needed.

ah, but it was afterlife experiance..... but weather he will forget his afterlife experiance or not is a whole new thread.... if he does, he will forget about that trip to the oracle too, if he doesn't, than he wont......

[Aahz]

The way the Oracle describes it, he already prophesied (on their previous visit) that Belkar would die before the end of the year. I don't remember that, did I just miss / forget it?

[Ninja]

yep Aahz you forgot it... the Oracle said that Belkar shouldn't bother funding his IRA, and that he should savor his next birthday cake....

[Eldaran]

Anyone else think the title is a reference to Dali's famous painting "The Persistence of Memory?"

[Ninja]

now that you say that... u are probably right.... although i never heard of that painting, but still....

[HOLEkevin]

I am SOOOO not buying the Oracle not knowing that Roy wouldn't remember.

[Roderick_BR]

Hmm... so there's a loophole to the memory charm. I guess that any teleport where you doesn't actually cross the area (like the two lizard-like guys) will prevent it from affecting you. Of course, no one knew about i, other than the Oracle and those that work with him... until now.

Hah, "Oracle fans" :smallbiggrin:

Hmm. does the -10 rule exists back in 1st edition? I think it existed in AD&D already. Love their little dialogue "it's a dumb rule, they should change it" "they did."

[T-O-E]

The Oracle is a great character, glad he wasn't killed off.

[Holammer]

I am SOOOO not buying the Oracle not knowing that Roy wouldn't remember.

Or does he? dun duuun DUUUN!

[Eric]

ah, but it was afterlife experiance..... but weather he will forget his afterlife experiance or not is a whole new thread.... if he does, he will forget about that trip to the oracle too, if he doesn't, than he wont......

I was only looking for a loophole.

I think that managed to get my brain knitted...

:smallfrown:

[David Argall]

Not at all. We have evidence of one of two things:

1.) That the Oracle is always right WHEN he looks into the future, but he must consciously choose to look. As in, he's not omniscient, he needs to choose to view particular facts in order to know about them.

OR

2.)

Roy thinks #1 is true, but it is not and the Oracle is misleading Roy in some way by allowing him to keep his memories.


Neither one of those implies that the Oracle's actual visions of the future will in any way fail to come to pass.


I still count 1.) as being fallible, thus "may be fallible". But also possible is

3. )Oracle speaking in green doesn't constitute a real prediction. We didn't see Tiamat summoned, and there was no question. This might also explain why the Oracle got rid of Roy in a way that he remembered everything, since if it's not a real prediction, the memory charm would have gotten rid of it.


The possibilities suggested pretty much cover the field, but
The oracle does not have to mislead Roy to mislead him. Mislead is normally read as intended to fool, and when the fault is by the other side, he misunderstands, not is mislead. One way the Oracle could have meant just what he said with no intention of fooling Roy...
Haley gains big treasure, enough to Raise Roy, and so rushes back to the "cleric" Oracle, who just happens to have the magic item Haley can Use Magical Device on to Raise Roy, for the low price of all her valuables. Roy is raised and the party exits the valley, and Roy forgets everything except that Belkar is going to breathe his last soon.

For those morning the upcoming demise of Belkar, recall we we went 67 strips on the day of battle. So Belkar could still be active for strip 25,000, which is unlikely to be the case for most of the audience.

Now, what calendar is the kobold using? And what is the date on it?

[jmucchiello]

I am SOOOO not buying the Oracle not knowing that Roy wouldn't remember.I agree. Most likely Roy visits the Oracle again after being raised and when leaving the valley that time, he will also forget this stuff. The Oracle only said he would forget because of the memory charm. He did not say when that would happen.

[timothyx]

I say Belkar becomes a Vampire or Zombie because of some magnificent display of uncharacteristic self sacrificing gesture...

[Draz74]

Anyone else think the title is a reference to Dali's famous painting "The Persistence of Memory?"

Yes, of course!

* * *



[spoiler]Well, Rich wouldn't be spending so much time and so many strips on the Oracle adventure if it weren't going to be very important to the plot. So that tells us some things about this strip. For example, if Roy is going to forget everything from the afterlife when he gets Raised (which I expect), then he'll definitely have a chance to relay all of this information -- today's prophecy, but also probably the rest of the story of what made Belkar sick -- to his allies before he gets Raised. Probably through Julia in Cliffport, like he foreshadowed a while back.

As far as the Oracle making a "mistake," I smell a rat ... it seems strange that the Oracle wouldn't realize Dismissal would bypass the Memory Charm. He tends to be pretty careful about looking ahead into the future! But my personal theory is, he doesn't care, because Roy won't remember anything (except maybe the prophecy) when he is Raised. Even if Roy passes on the story, the Oracle just might not care, as long as nobody living (and mammal), long-term, remembers everything about his operation.

Now ... why is this information going to be important to the plot? Well, someone said Roy shouldn't even tell Belkar that his sickness is due to the MoJ. I totally disagree. First, I don't see the point of not telling him -- so that he'll still be afraid of setting off the MoJ? Pssshhh, he's too sick to be attacking anyone anyway. Just to torture him? Hmmm, personally, I think it will be a greater pain for him to experience the shock of realizing that, whoa, his actions can actually have consequences and come back to hurt him! And after experiencing that shock, he might, just might, actually learn something.

Yeah, that's why Roy will tell him what happened. Because Roy, unlike the majority of people on this Forum, still has hope -- if not as strong or naive as Hinjo's hope -- that Belkar can actually be at least partially redeemed. Deva says so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) And letting him know that his current miserable, helpless state is due to his own violence is possibly a more powerful motivation for him to change than anything else.

... Except maybe knowing that his days are numbered.

I'm surprised to think that the Oracle might care at all about whether Belkar will change and fix himself up or not. But Roy will. And so the reason that the Oracle's latest prophecy will matter ... is because Roy will try to coerce Belkar into some deathbed repentance! Will it work? Well, that's the great question of the character Belkar, isn't it.

I don't think Belkar's getting out of this one, btw. Definitely not with the "undead" loophole. The reason the oracle worded the prophecy as "last breath ... ever" wasn't to leave open the undead loophole; it was just to close off the "revolving door afterlife" loophole. The Oracle's other statements make that clear. And while the Oracle might be a sneaky Chessmaster when it comes to combat and actions, he seems remarkably straightforward when it comes to information, like his predictions. I would be very surprised if he's just throwing Roy on a wild goose chase.

Although I do have to wonder if Belkar could be killed by the Snarl, and, if so, whether his Alignment at the time of death would matter at all. Because the Snarl would eat his soul so he wouldn't have an afterlife at all ...

Interesting things are afoot, for sure. I find Belkar hilarious, and I'm very interested in his part in the larger story of the comic. Perhaps at last we'll learn some things about what really motivates him.

Also several good non-plot-related points in this comic. I do love that Eugene started playing with Roy's Oracle, and that he's not as good at the game as Roy. "That's a stupid rule, and they should change it!" "They did!" :smallbiggrin:

[Mc. Lovin']

Ooh, I had not thought about that, good point you have there. Though, War and XPs was almost certainly about Haley, not Elan (I think Dungeon Crawlin' Fools was about Elan actually, wasn't it? Which makes sense, in a way). The more I think about it, the more it makes sense in my head, thinking back through this book's strips so far. And actually, that makes the argument that Belkar will die sooner rather than later. What better a way to end Belkar's journey than his death?

Ah right, I only had No Cure for the Paladin Blues, so I assumed that was Durkon or something.

I guessed Elan for War and Exps, because of all the changes he goes through, but the whole speach thing was important for Haley.

[Ninja]

The possibilities suggested pretty much cover the field, but
The oracle does not have to mislead Roy to mislead him. Mislead is normally read as intended to fool, and when the fault is by the other side, he misunderstands, not is mislead. One way the Oracle could have meant just what he said with no intention of fooling Roy...
Haley gains big treasure, enough to Raise Roy, and so rushes back to the "cleric" Oracle, who just happens to have the magic item Haley can Use Magical Device on to Raise Roy, for the low price of all her valuables. Roy is raised and the party exits the valley, and Roy forgets everything except that Belkar is going to breathe his last soon.

ah yes, except the fact Haley doesn't know what Oracle has, and thinks he isn't home. she is headed for cliffport and will probably raise Roy there, or in some other city.... so the Oracle knew Roy wont pass the border, and is missleading him, or he knows that maybe even if Roy forgets about his afterlife experience, he might still remember only those things he said to him with his greenish voice....


For those morning the upcoming demise of Belkar, recall we we went 67 strips on the day of battle. So Belkar could still be active for strip 25,000, which is unlikely to be the case for most of the audience.

Now, what calendar is the kobold using? And what is the date on it?

yes it is possible that Belkar will sticktill the end of the comic...
as for the question, i was wondering that myself, but i believe he is using the southern calendar... which means Belkar's got about... 7-8 months of life left...
but if he is using the northern calendar, that leaves him like 3-6 months....

[Keldaria]

the oracle is upto something.... something big. I'd like to site comic 548 panel 8 where they are speaking about the number of sides of the conflict. the roaches mention 9. Its my opinion that the oracle is on a side of his own with his own agenda regaurding the gate's.

Lets face it, he knows too much to not be holding a hand of cards in this poker game we call a Comic. furthermore he knows where to move, when to move and how to react to manipulate OOTS which he's no dought using to his advantage. Plus he's the perfict villian .. the last minate HA fooled you routine. the puppet master of them all.

Why else would he let Roy return with his full memory, I dought something like that would escape his knowtis Unless he wanted it to happen, but as of yet i havn't seen anything in the trip to the oracle that actually matters except the belkar "Last Breath" prediction. (which i still beleaves means he'll find a magical neckless of endure breath that he leaves on forever meaning he never needs to breath)

[Andvare]

This makes me a sad panda.

[Selene]

That poor 4th wall is in need of some serious repair!

The panel where the Oracle shamelessly broke said wall seemed a bit needless (I mean we could have figured it out), and ... cheap, really.

You honestly don't think that would have been fodder for like a bajillion "what does he mean by year" threads? :smallconfused:


Because he specifically says so in Panel 7: "You'll forget everything else when you pass through the memory charm."

Ah, ok. Thanks. I missed that. :smallsmile:


But the oracle knew when he said that that Roy would not "pass through the memory charm" right away, if ever again. He was obviously playing with Roy's head. Again.

Also possible.

[SteveMB]

OotPC and SoD Spoilers:

On page 33 of OotPC, Eugene tells us that he has learned that the oath follows him into the afterlife. At the end of SoD we see him learning about that while in the afterlife. Thus, it would seem that he was able to remember at least something from there.

Eugene was warned when he first took the Oath of Vengeance that it would follow him into the afterlife. While he was drunk off his butt at the time, that was presumably part of what he remembered after waking up the next morning and noticing his new tattoo.

He stopped hunting for Xykon after getting married and settling down, but the approach of permanent death by old age apparently made enough of an impression that he at least bestirred himself to dump the problem onto the next generation.

As for Eugene "learning" about the problem when he finally arrived in the afterlife to stay, my read is that he knew perfectly well that he wasn't supposed to be able to get into Celestia but was trying to weasel his way through.

[SupraGuy]

Well, if Rich reads this far in... I'm glad that he seems to be feeling better. Don't work yourself sick, though, K?

Couple of things... The oracle says "When you pass through the memory charm." This apparently did not happen with the dismissal, however it doesn not preclude the possibility that it WILL happen.
I wonder if the memory charm will erase the memories of everything (excluding the "freebie" prophecy) since he went into the valley following :haley:, :belkar:, and Celia including whatever he does now outside the valley. That would totally suck, AND be in keeping with Rich burdening his heroes with humour-rich malaises.

One in-strip year... Well, in a matter of a few strips, 3 1/2 months passed (While :roy: was climbing the mountain, playing blocks, fishing... Presumably another few weeks for him to walk back DOWN the mountain, and from their previous visit, Belkar wasn't given much more than a year.

Additionally, since they celebrated New Years in Azure city, and the oracle said "Before the year is out" the 3 1/2 -5 months that :roy: was on the mountain has happened since then, leaving 6 to 7 months strip time. Whether "before the year is out" means before the calendar year ends (6-7 months), or before a year from now has passed may be up to interpretation, however, literally, it means before the calendar year ends. I really think that :belkar: isn't going to be around much longer.

[Essej]

I really couldn't despise the Oracle more at this point. I hope he enjoys his next mangling. :smallannoyed:

[disorder]

I really couldn't despise the Oracle more at this point.
Sure you could! You just haven't tried hard enough...

[SirBel]

Wow - permadeath for Belkar. Bummer. I like him. But he definitely has it coming...Unless it means he'll be reincarnated as some kind of aquatic creature...Good strip! Thanks for all the updates! They are appreciated!!!!!!! (as you can see by the 7 exclamation points)

[Ninja]

I wonder if the memory charm will erase the memories of everything (excluding the "freebie" prophecy) since he went into the valley following :haley:, :belkar:, and Celia including whatever he does now outside the valley. That would totally suck, AND be in keeping with Rich burdening his heroes with humour-rich malaises.

but he didn't go to the valey following Haley & Co. ..... he simply heard they were going there, and descended in the tower before they even got there to see if the Oracle heard him... so he didnt pass the border in his way in, nor in his way out.....

[The Gremlin]

Anyone remember which comic the questions were asked in? 'cos this seems to be an attempt at an action-replay but as far as I recall, that isn't what the Oracle said.

Ahem. The first time, the Oracle said:
"The halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA."
"He should savor his next birthday cake."

[Forum Explorer]

What I think
I think Belkar will die before Roy is raised. His death will also be because he can't defend himself due to mark of justice. Finally he will get killed by someone out for revenge for something Belkar did. (Mabey YikYik's younger sister?

[Ninja]

What I think
I think Belkar will die before Roy is raised. His death will also be because he can't defend himself due to mark of justice. Finally he will get killed by someone out for revenge for something Belkar did. (Mabey YikYik's younger sister?

nah... there's no way a kobold is gonna kill Belkar....

[Aris Katsaris]

The panel where the Oracle went all-Oracley (with the spotlight and so forth) confused me for a minute, because the different colors made me believe this was this was supposed to be some flashback.

I figured out this wasn't the case only after I saw Roy was ghost-floating in that panel also. But still -- the different coloration was misleading and I hope Giant considers changing it to "normal".

[prongs43]

I love all of these updates! I have a theory, but it's not about Belkar's death. It's not a likely theory either, it's just some fun speculation. The "important client" the Oracle mentions could be Celia. The client's flying in and the Oracle's afraid of Roy messing it up. Once again, not very likely, just meaningless speculation.

[Ninja]

I have a theory, but it's not about Belkar's death. It's not a likely theory either, it's just some fun speculation. The "important client" the Oracle mentions could be Celia. The client's flying in and the Oracle's afraid of Roy messing it up. Once again, not very likely, just meaningless speculation.

Celia just left the oracle, and she thinks she aint home. she might be a important darater but not that important.... it is higly unlikely that the important client is Celia. in fact, it is higly unlikely that it is anyone we have seen so far....

[Fluff]

Woooot! Belkar's gonna diiee, Belkar's gonna diiee!
*Does the happy dance, then grabs a random passer by and screams at them*
"Belkar's gonna DIE! Wooot!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hahaha...nice. I totally called the memory charm bypass. Although like has been mentioned, he might forget it all...although that's not to prevent him trying to communicate with somebody in the world below...

Belkar theory...
It would be hilarious if Belkar became an undead. Think Richard (from LFG) as a Halfling Ranger...

[Warren Dew]

in fact, it is higly unlikely that it is anyone we have seen so far....

I agree, though there's an outside chance it could be Xykon. I think it's most likely to be a dragon related creature; the oracle seems to have a lot of dragon related ties.

[LordSintax]

priceless. "That's a stupid rule and they should change it!"
"they DID!"

just awesome. and as for the Belkster coming back as an undead? Oh, dear.
would that maybe be as an eye of fear and stabbing?

[BisectedBrioche]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Belkar ended up doing a doodle of himself dieing (within a year or in universe time), with particular emphasis on the fact he was in/exhaling for the last time....

[Kentos]

u know how they say that BELKAR will breath his last breath, ever? .....idk why but maybe hes just getting a name change? think about it, BELKAR is breathing his last name, but Free Willy the Third isnt!....idk just a thought :smallwink:

[David Argall]

So how much time does Belkar have left?

Assuming the Oracle is using the Southern calendar, Roy died about Jan 15 and started watching folk about May 6.
From there, there is a little confusion. The heir to House Kato is now showing, which suggests the time may be August. However, the Oracle is not far from Azure City, and Haley's return to it suggests she had not traveled far beyond it, suggesting a date of mid-late May.

We have no certaintity here, but Belkar may well have less than 6 months left.

[Morgan Wick]

Well, your idiocy made me so upset I grabbed and shook my computer screen and made it crack and now there's a black area growing on the side of it and I need to get it replaced.

I hope you're happy.

We are so going off to someone else at 573.

[The Gremlin]

The panel where the Oracle went all-Oracley (with the spotlight and so forth) confused me for a minute, because the different colors made me believe this was this was supposed to be some flashback.

I figured out this wasn't the case only after I saw Roy was ghost-floating in that panel also. But still -- the different coloration was misleading and I hope Giant considers changing it to "normal".

I digress. In my opinion, it just added to the hilarity. I mean, really:
"Here, let me put it on the record."
Then all of a sudden: A spot light centers on him, the colors grow dark...
"Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year."

[Dark Wolf]

It doesn't answer the cake hint, but maybe Belkar lives another hundred years then magic takes him back 99 years just before he takes his last breathe.

[Forealms]

now theres gonna be theories of how Belkar is going to die, and such.

I predict he will either:
1) be mortally wounded,
2) expire from an existing wound, or
3) die of unnatural circumstances (as in laughing to death or some other cause)

This will be followed (or perhaps preceded) by his vital organs ceasing to function.

I think I've got it covered :smalltongue:

[Red XIV]

My speculation about Belkar's fate:

Based on the Oracle's wording ("Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year."), I think the halfling is going to wind up as Snarl-chow.

Between wish and true resurrection, nearly anything else is reversible for someone Belkar's age. Never mind that it's unlikely that anyone would ever cast either spell on the ranger's behalf -- all that matters is that they provide a chance for someone to start him breathing again sometime within the next two centuries.

With the Snarl involved, "ever" is completely certain.
That's a quite reasonable idea, however...
You can only bring somebody back to life if they're willing. It's entirely possible that Belkar will simply like the Chaotic Evil afterlife so much that he has no desire to leave.

[Blaznak]

I just gotta say, you never know in this comic WHAT's going to happen next. A lot of speculation and second guessing leaves you with the "infinite monkey's" theory - Eventually SOMEONE will guess a prediction that is somewhat close.

For me, though, I just enjoy the ride!

Fun stories!
Later

[khourytamarisk]

Only one question... What does "work blue" mean? That's the only part I don't understand.

Kobolds FTW! :biggrin:

[Brasswatchman]

Speculation ahoy! it's probably already been said.


The Oracle is manipulating Roy into killing Belkar which is why he let Roy keep his memory, that way he'll remember how evil Belkar's become and may kill him or the Oracle knows of another event that requires Roy's memory to be intact and will cause Roy to kill Belkar.

Damn, I didn't think of that. Brilliant!

[pendell]

That. Was. AWESOME. 9 out of 10!

I see the Giant responded to my comment by explaining how the way he named the town was funnier than some alternatives. I am grateful. While I disagree, it's his comic. He's certainly funnier than I am.

The oracle now joins She Who Must Not Be Named as a really memorable character in the comic and not just another nameless plot hook NPC.

Giant seems to be good at that.

Fourth wall? This strip no longer has a fourth wall! It gets broken in almost every strip! Go back and read, and I wager that out of every 10 strips at least 8 have a fourth wall break of some kind.

It seems like the giant is trying to take the air out of some of the rampant speculation .. witness the 'in-comic' vs. 'real-world' comment. I bet he finds it hilarious how something that sems to him so simple generates such outlandish, wild theories.

... Grumble grumble including my own grumble grumble ...

Nonetheless, I am going to make some wild speculation that as approx. a .005% chance of actually happening and just ask one simple question.



Do gods breathe?



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dark Wolf]

Only one question... What does "work blue" mean? That's the only part I don't understand.


It means he decided to use vulgarity. Blue language is vulgarity.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I predict he will either:
1) be mortally wounded,
2) expire from an existing wound, or
3) die of unnatural circumstances (as in laughing to death or some other cause)

This will be followed (or perhaps preceded) by his vital organs ceasing to function.

I think I've got it covered :smalltongue:

Perhaps the Oracle already gave it away by telling Belkar he should savor his next birthday cake. Considering that his prophecies don't tend to be truly literal (or they're so literal as to be misinterpreted), what if Belkar wolfs down his next birthday cake to the point where he chokes on it, killing him? By failing to savor it, he kills himself.

[Brasswatchman]

Only one question... What does "work blue" mean? That's the only part I don't understand.

Old expression, means he used adult humor. I.e. "Lickmyorangeballshalfling."

Also could be a hidden reference to Azure City, somehow, too, I guess...

[factotum]

The panel where the Oracle went all-Oracley (with the spotlight and so forth) confused me for a minute, because the different colors made me believe this was this was supposed to be some flashback.


The whole point of that panel was to show that the Oracle had entered his trance and was thus speaking a truth that could be remembered once the listener left the valley. Therefore it shows the same colouration as the Oracle's previous trance scene. I don't see how it's confusing at all.

[Morgan Wick]

One piece of evidence that the Oracle knows what he's doing and, if he doesn't know Roy's keeping his memories this way, SHOULD know: something we discussed on the 571 thread. He counts on his clerics NOT to be affected by the memory charm when they teleport out.

(I'm too lazy to see if this has already been discussed)

[Morgan Wick]

Roy may well remember what the Oracle says now, but when he wakes up from being dead, after a Raise/Resurrection/etc., he may forget it then just like most/all creatures do not remember their time in the afterlife.

Which means at least one of three things will happen:
1. Roy remembers this stuff even after returning from the dead.
2. Roy won't remember after returning from the dead, but will be able to influence the material world with his knowledge before then.
3. Someone else teleports out of the Sunken Valley and retains things they shouldn't know.

[Eric]

I agree, though there's an outside chance it could be Xykon. I think it's most likely to be a dragon related creature; the oracle seems to have a lot of dragon related ties.

In SoD, Xycon disappears from RC's knowledge for quite a while. Comes back and he knows where the gate is. Maybe he went to the Oracle to find out...

[lothos]

I saw the earlier discussion about "draws his last breath" meaning he might become undead.

It occurred to me that it could also mean he gets turned to stone / put in suspended animation / becomes a god / gets polymorphed in to a fish / etc.

I have a theory that I'm going to spoiler, because part of it refers to stuff in "On the Origin of PCs":


So if you look back at OOTS 276 you can see Kraagoor appears to be turned to stone as part of the sealing of the rift in the northern lands gate). I wonder if he is in some way "filling" the gate, blocking it ? I'm not saying his petrified body is the gate, we know the gates were built later to "buttress reality". I do wonder though if his body is in some way filling the breach.

We also know from "On the Origion of PCs" that when Durkon was exiled from his dwarfen homelands, that was to the north and that it was snowy and icy there (perhaps because it's in the mountains, perhaps because it's near the polar cap of this world... assuming this world has the same sort of geography as earth...)

I think we can infer that the final confrontation between OOTS and Xykon will be near Kraagoor's gate, near the polar caps. We know this because he will be within a 1000 foot radium of Girad's gate before he will be within a 1000 foot radius of Kraagoor's gate (see OOTS 331). So based on this, I assume he is going first to Girad's gate, THEN presumably that gate will get destroyed or something, then the final confrontation will be at the last gate left in the world (with the stakes as high as they can be), Kraagoor's gate near the polar cap...

Finally we also know from OOTS 331 that Durkon will be returning to his dwarven homelands posthumously, so I wonder if he will be killed in that possible final confrontation at Kraaagoor's gate, near his dwarfen homelands.

So..... IF I'm right that the final confrontation is at Kraaagoor's gate, perhaps Belkar will in some way replace Kraaagoor as "filling" that gate ? That would mean he was turned to stone (or something like that) and wouldn't be breathing again........



So that might all be absolutely wrong of course :-) But it's fun to speculate.

[Athaniar]

Great comic! I now think the Oracle is my favorite character. No, he already was my favorite character. I dunno, I just like kobolds. Anything scaly, really. I must add that in my sig...

To respond to lothos:I don't think Kraagor is turned to stone, but rather was devoured by the Snarl, and then his companions raised a staue to honor him (remember Ockham's Razor).

[akumadaimyo]

So just what "edition" is Roy's Dad playing anyway? It's not 4th I don't think.

[Dunesen]

It cannot be refused. It calls to me. The soft yet powerful voice, reaching across the abyss of cyberspace. It floats on ethereal wings, penetrating my very mind. I am helpless to resist.

I must speculate about Belkar's death.

This is obviously a major plot point here, and we're not looking at simple foreshadowing like "We'd be better off without you, Belkar" and then he dies soon after. This is the set-up of a significant turning point, the way 300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) set up the Battle of Azure City. It announced what was going to happen down the road, but we still had the anticipation building for another 100+ strips.

So like I said earlier in the thread, I don't imagine any swift resolution to the question of Belkar's mortality.

But I do think that this is not going to lead to a cop-out. No undead status, no divinity achieved, no magic item that allows him to live without breathing. Belkar will die, finito, flatline, no pulse or brainwaves, his consciousness will leave his body.

Stone dead, demised, passed on, no more, ceased to be, expired and gone to meet his maker, a stiff, bereft of life he will sleep in peace, pushing up daisies, his metabolic processes will be history, off the twig (what does that mean?), kicked the bucket, shuffled off the mortal coil, run down the curtain and join the bleeding choir invisible, an ex-Belkar.

(It's not a thread until someone quotes Monty Python)

So how will it happen? It doesn't necessarily have to be any major action in regards to the plot, but it seems most fitting. A heroic sacrifice will be uncharacteristic without a major epiphany, but since this is not a dramatic strip that would be difficult to pull off without being lame.

It's concievable (and likely) he will be kept alive until the team is reunited and makes it to Girard's gate, at which point the Snarl-snack theory becomes a distinct possibility. It would certainly lend a lot of weight to the quest, especially after the gate is destroyed and everyone is left with just one final gate. (And don't tell me that's not going to happen)

If he has to die due to external forces (and the MoJ doesn't seem intended to kill him, not by its own effects), this would be the most dramatic. As I said, a heroic sacrifice would be out of place, but I think some change in his character could take place and then he dies unwillingly during the fighting at Girard's gate (but not by the Snarl). With that scenario his death will having meaning, and as someone pointed out above, he might prefer the Chaotic Evil afterlife to regular mortality. (or wherever he goes, if it's possible for him to change alignment)

I don't expect him to die during anything less than a plot-central act, so the Haley/Celia/Belkar roadtrip will not be his end. He'll be there when Roy comes back, he'll make it to Girard's gate, and he'll die there. That's my prediction.

(and then they'll nail his feet to the perch and say he's sleeping)

*

As for the Oracle's visitor, I don't think we're going to see them. We haven't see the Oracle by himself at all, only when there's been at least one member of the team there. While it is possible that a major character (or soon to be major character) is the visitor in question, I don't think it will be revealed just now.

If it's Xykon or someone that's already been introduced (how come no one's suggested Nale et al?), there might be a greater surprise value in revealing it later. If it's someone we haven't seen yet, this could be a good time to introduce them, except we have a couple other plot threads that need resolution already like Kubato and the upcoming Greysky arc I'm still betting on with Haley et al.

Not unless the Giant wants to do what he did with Miko: an ominous introduction and then 80 pages of waiting for the actual reveal. That is entirely plausible and would work (ignoring the "it's been done" part).

[Coke_Can64]

Neat comic... so many different things to think about...

One thing that could mess us all up is that the Oracle may be wr-
*Gets flattened by several Oracle Supporters*
*Picks himself up*
... Umm, okay then, what if Belkar dies to save the wor-
*Gets flattened by sheer sanity*
*Picks himself up again*
FINE THEN... I'm not sure about Belkar becoming undead... but they're just my doubts...

...

I guess that I'm the only one that actually is gonna try this...
*Repairs the 4th wall* :smalltongue:

[Kish]

So just what "edition" is Roy's Dad playing anyway? It's not 4th I don't think.
Since Roy was playing 1st, I'd imagine Eugene is also playing 1st.

Death at -10 hit points existing but as an optional rule marks it as first or second edition.

[Dunesen]

I guess that I'm the only one that actually is gonna try this...
*Repairs the 4th wall* :smalltongue:

Job's taken.

[One_Wolf]

Only one question... What does "work blue" mean? That's the only part I don't understand.

Kobolds FTW! :biggrin:

Comedy that shocks or often offends an audience. See "Blue Comedy" in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_comedy

-One Wolf

[charles]

1. Miko is dead from the blast at the castle
2. a couple of lizardmen will show up at such and such a time to resurrect the oracle again.
3. The oracle is a Kobold
4. Belkar killed the oracle (he'll still think his vision hasn't come true) *LOL*
5. Belkar's mark of justice has been activated (can it only ever be activated once? Will Belkar go around not knowing that he can now kill freely?)
6. Belkar will somehow cause the death of 'V' (Oracle didn't get to finish how).
7. Belkar bet on Roy.

[T-O-E]

It would be cool if he looked into a mirror, tried to stab himself. Seeing that the man inside the passageway blocked his dagger with one of his own, he stabs again. Soon, he gets into an epic battle with himself lasting 3 months, and eventually his lungs collapsed. Then he gets hooked up to an iron lung. Technically, he wouldn't be taking his own breaths, so the prophecy would come true. That would be epic.

I disagree, that would be a truly awful conclusion.

[Ninja]

1. Miko is dead from the blast at the castle
2. a couple of lizardmen will show up at such and such a time to resurrect the oracle again.
3. The oracle is a Kobold
4. Belkar killed the oracle (he'll still think his vision hasn't come true) *LOL*
5. Belkar's mark of justice has been activated (can it only ever be activated once? Will Belkar go around not knowing that he can now kill freely?)
6. Belkar will somehow cause the death of 'V' (Oracle didn't get to finish how).
7. Belkar bet on Roy.

point??
and it doesn't mean he will cause the death of V....

[brilliantlight]

Ah, but the oracle didn't say the belkster would *die*, just that he'll draw his last breath - ever.

He might just achieve some sort of ascension (or more likely 'descent') into demi-godhood (I'm assuming here that breathing is optional for immortals)...

"I am a sexy, shoeless god of war".

...or, in the grand tradition of intergenerational heroic fiction, one of the party of heroes needs to split off and become the villain for the next generation... Belkar is certainly qualified, maybe when Xykon is finally vanquished, Belkar finds the only existing copy of "Lich-hood for Dummies (by Redcloak)" and reads it...

All-in-all, if there's a more dramatic spin the Giant can put on "draw his last breath", I'm sure he will.

Unless he decides on the double-reverse twist to put the smackdown on this kind of speculation, and goes with a simple, literal death...


"I clearly cannot choose the glass in front of you..."

Belkar is far too stupid to become a lich and he can't cast spells. He could come back as a vampire or something but I think Rich is becoming sick of the character and he will simply die.

[brilliantlight]

My speculation about Belkar's fate:

Based on the Oracle's wording ("Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year."), I think the halfling is going to wind up as Snarl-chow.

Between wish and true resurrection, nearly anything else is reversible for someone Belkar's age. Never mind that it's unlikely that anyone would ever cast either spell on the ranger's behalf -- all that matters is that they provide a chance for someone to start him breathing again sometime within the next two centuries.

With the Snarl involved, "ever" is completely certain.

As an oracle it is completely certain no matter what. If he says Belkar breathes his last ever it doesn't matter if he can be raised but he simply won't be raised.

[Roxysteve]

"Lodestone"?

I think Roy meant to say "millstone" there. A lodestone is a good thing to have on a string round your neck.

Steve.

[hewhosaysfish]

I think I'll place my money on Belkar getting turned into a fish-manhalfling-thing and thus technically never breathing again because he has gills.

OK, so it's not as likely as the permadeath thing but it's sillier and at least I'll get good odds.

[T-O-E]

"Lodestone"?

I think Roy meant to say "millstone" there. A lodestone is a good thing to have on a string round your neck.

Steve.


You're looking for a real world definition in a D&D joke. In most editions of D&D, there is a cursed magic item called a "loadstone" that magically increases your encumbrance to maximum (i.e. a heavy load). This is a reference to that, although the spelling is wrong.

Hope that helped.

[RebelRogue]

Belkar is far too stupid to become a lich and he can't cast spells.
Given he has 22 ranger levels (or if the DM allows it: 14 ranger levels and the Practised Spellcaster Feat) and the Craft Wondrous Items Feat, he may become a Lich!

[Azazel]

Well there it goes. Another debate.
At least we have the questionable kindness of being informed that it's an in comic year which means that while we're spared from the "MARCH 15!" guessing threads and so on people will still debate endlessly over what constitutes a comic year.
As well as the cause of death. Oh well...

Oh dear... there will be an "undead Belkar" thread soon, won't it?
I mean, undead don't nessecarily breathe and it's already been done to death with Roy. Meh... go nuts, guys. If it makes you happy.

[Shatteredtower]

You can only bring somebody back to life if they're willing. It's entirely possible that Belkar will simply like the Chaotic Evil afterlife so much that he has no desire to leave.That's possible. I think there might be a problem with the idea, however, depending on how close to the rules the Giant wants to play things:Outsiders, whether demon or petitioner, still need to breathe.The Giant isn't bound to follow that rule, of course. No one's going to complain if he decides to overrule it. :smallsmile:


You are placing a lot of weight behind your unfounded assumption that the author cares even one bit about what possible events we readers might imagine happening 200 years after he's finished the story, and will construct his story in such a way as to preclude any other interpretation.I'm confused. You appear to understand what speculation means, but it seems like you ignore the fact that I described the contents of my spoiler tag as such.

My unfounded assumption, as you call it, is again speculation. The Giant has come out and expressed, if not annoyance, at least bewilderment at some of the livelier or more convoluted arguments that have appeared here, and shown great skill in heading more than a few of them off within the strip. (My favourite example involves Durkon's use of control weather, which should have been precedent enough to prevent any arguments about whether or not Xykon's use of symbol of insanity was legal. It was a favourite because I was one of the first to post, "But control weather doesn't work like that," and got a kick out of having the rug pulled out from under my argument in such an amusing fashion at the start of the next strip.) I never ruled out the possibility that he might fulfill today's prediction via other conditions, but this is the method that works best to shut down any arguments -- whether the Giant remains ignorant of them or no -- about whether or not the prophecy is fulfilled.

This doesn't just cover reader arguments either. It also covers arguments by the other PCs, for whom, "The Oracle said so," is not irrefutable proof. Another bit of speculation:

Belkar can fulfill the prediction by becoming other than Belkar. Depending on how the Giant handles his afterlife, that might allow for Belkar's spirit to eventually become an outsider. Outsider's breathe. That means, according to prophecy, that one of two things must be true: either Belkar ceases to be Belkar in any meaningful the moment his soul becomes an outsider, or Belkar can't become an outsider. (Okay, there are also possibilities that involve creatures that breathe without drawing breath as well, but let's put that aside for now.) If that wasn't an option anyway, no problem. If it is, however, and Belkar would still be considered Belkar even if he became Squish the Dretch, then the only sure way to make sure that never happens is by destroying him utterly.

Now while that could be accomplished by having his soul devoured upon arrival in the afterlife or by a barghest's feeding ability, there is another method, one previously mentioned and significant to the plot. Nothing forces the Giant to eliminate Belkar by means of the Snarl, but it's appropriate for several reasons. I've already mentioned how effective it is at guaranteeing prophecy, but it also makes the Snarl's most terrible ability mean something within the story (even if a lot of readers won't be sorry to see Belkar go), and what's an epic battle with a world ending threat if it doesn't permanently cost the life of at least one party member along the way?

Please note that I've described why it would be appropriate without saying it's the only appropriate way to resolve the issue. It's certainly not necessary to end things this way, but I maintain that there are good reasons for it to go this way.


For example, you assume that he wishes he had finalized Miko's death, but what evidence do you have that he feels that way?Did I? Let me see:
The Giant might be wishing he'd done the same for Miko some days. :smallwink: No, that doesn't say what you're claiming it says. What I wrote is no different than this next bit:


He may enjoy the ambiguity of it exactly as it is.Note your use of the word 'may' here is no different than my use of the word 'might' in my own observation. Both are also examples of speculation. Mine didn't rule out alternative possibilities. It simply presented the reasons I believe it's a suitable possibility.


Just because YOU find it to be "not sure enough" doesn't mean he agrees.So? I bet Sir Arthur Conan Doyle didn't agree either, and he still brought Sherlock Holmes back. Ditto for Ian Fleming and James Bond. And the only reason Mostly Harmless was the conclusion to a series started with The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is because Douglas Adams died before he could write the next book. Or maybe we should consider the fact that Bram Stoker screwed up the ending of Dracula badly enough to keep coming back again and again.


I can think of lots of stories that end with ambiguous interpretations of what will happen next, why should this story be guaranteed to not be the same way?Because this is not set up for ambiguity. "Ever" is not an ambiguous word.


If he tells us through a character who can see the future that "X never happens" then X never happens (assuming the Oracle has no margin for error). The fact that X is theoretically possible doesn't matter; it never happens. Period.In or out of story, that's not very
good reasoning. We've already seen the Oracle affect surprise when Roy tried to pin him down to a non-evasive answer. Maybe he was faking it. Maybe not. Either way, saying "It'll happen because the Oracle said so," is circular reasoning. The Oracle's words do not cause Belkar to stop drawing breath. It's not enough to say that will be the case until you can demonstrate that it can never be other than that case.

Mr. Burlew may fulfill prophecy as he pleases. I've just mentioned one means that is meaningfully supported within the story. Consider that the Oracle got killed after offering a few interpretations of his prophecy to Belkar. It might have been sufficient for some of us, but it sure wasn't sufficient for Belkar. The end result was something more definite than, "You'll just have to take the Oracle's word for it."

Good precedent, that. :smallwink:

[The Gremlin]

In SoD, Xycon disappears from RC's knowledge for quite a while. Comes back and he knows where the gate is. Maybe he went to the Oracle to find out...

I don't think Xykon visited the gate. I think, however, that he and RC will some day, and they'll try to cheat the Oracle. The Oracle will have seen this happening and will refuse. But perhaps he did not see Xykon killing him, for some odd reason...for example, maybe it will happen right after the druid left and the trogs will still be around. Then a battle will ensue, maybe even epic battle since the trogs can resurrect. Eventually, though, Xykon and RC will win, and the Oracle will be slain.
Just idle speculation, I don't think it's likely.

[Defenestrator]

I don't think Xykon visited the gate. I think, however, that he and RC will some day, and they'll try to cheat the Oracle. The Oracle will have seen this happening and will refuse. But perhaps he did not see Xykon killing him, for some odd reason...for example, maybe it will happen right after the druid left and the trogs will still be around. Then a battle will ensue, maybe even epic battle since the trogs can resurrect. Eventually, though, Xykon and RC will win, and the Oracle will be slain.
Just idle speculation, I don't think it's likely.

Of course, unless Xykon or RC has visited the oracle before, they won't know about the memory charm, and will probably just walk out, forgetting the whole thing.

[silvadel]

Given he has 22 ranger levels (or if the DM allows it: 14 ranger levels and the Practised Spellcaster Feat) and the Craft Wondrous Items Feat, he may become a Lich!

That would be completely in belkar's character to take a practiced spellcaster feat on a character that can not cast spells due to his stats.

[NobleSavage]

Right, so I'ma do it, too...


So a lot of people have been theorizing that Belkar may come back as an undead, which, while possible, seems a little far fetched, and would seem to go against his character shown so far.

Now, how about this: This is building to be a Belkar-central story arc, so isn't it possible that he has some major character developments? After all he's suffered, maybe its time for the 'redemption' portion of his story. That said, I see him dying as part of a major battle, pertinent to the plot line. So, what if he does something really 'good,' impresses someone powerful and comes back as a deathless or even *shudder* a risen martyr/saint? Wouldn't that piss off the party?

Far fetched, for sure, but possible, and is in tune with the tone of the comic.


Jus' my 2 cp

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Right, so I'ma do it, too...


So a lot of people have been theorizing that Belkar may come back as an undead, which, while possible, seems a little far fetched, and would seem to go against his character shown so far.

Now, how about this: This is building to be a Belkar-central story arc, so isn't it possible that he has some major character developments? After all he's suffered, maybe its time for the 'redemption' portion of his story. That said, I see him dying as part of a major battle, pertinent to the plot line. So, what if he does something really 'good,' impresses someone powerful and comes back as a deathless or even *shudder* a risen martyr/saint? Wouldn't that piss off the party?

Far fetched, for sure, but possible, and is in tune with the tone of the comic.


Jus' my 2 cp
Haha...that would be hilarious. Although...

Being undead could definitely be in Belkar's character. Ever heard of Richard the undead warlock?

[DrivinAllNight]

Ok, I didn't read any of the other posts, since I'm not to worried about what happens to belkar after he dies, nor as to the how, all I know is that he will die before the Comic year is up, which is great news since none of use know exactly what month it is in the comic anyways, which means it could be anytime the Oracle has foreseen. Also, loved the breaking of the fourth wall again and the poking fun at the D&D -10hp thingy. All good and all funny, :smallsmile:

[Ninja]

In SoD, Xycon disappears from RC's knowledge for quite a while. Comes back and he knows where the gate is. Maybe he went to the Oracle to find out...

i belive that Xykon was searching for the diary of Serini at that time....

[David Argall]

saying "It'll happen because the Oracle said so," is circular reasoning.
Nope. Simple observed fact. Both within and outside the comic.



I don't think Xykon visited the gate. I think, however, that he and RC will some day, and ... Then a battle will ensue, maybe even epic battle since the trogs can resurrect. Eventually, though, Xykon and RC will win, and the Oracle will be slain.
Just idle speculation, I don't think it's likely.
For good reason.
Just what does this have to do with the party?
This is a world. There are large wars going on right now that we know zip about. What we learn about involves the PCs or will involve them. Something that involves some NPCs is not going to make screen time in the comic unless it affects the party. And the larger the event, the more likely this is. We are just not going to have a big battle of NPCs unless the PCs are in it. We might get a strip where the bad boys visit and learn about the next gate, but it's going to be pretty businesslike and brief. Possibly only a frame or so.
And the strip has noted the Oracle next dies 2-3 years from now, which should be long after the strip is over.



SoD
In SoD, Xycon disappears from RC's knowledge for quite a while. Comes back and he knows where the gate is. Maybe he went to the Oracle to find out...

SoD
Xykon says when he returns that he found the location in the diary. While Xykon's devotion to the truth is rather less than 100%, the strip shows them hunting for that diary rather than hunting for the Oracle to find the next gate. Xykon may know of the Oracle. It seems a lot of people do. But the Oracle charges a lot for not much, so he may not consider a visit worth the bother.

[Ninja]

Ok, I didn't read any of the other posts, since I'm not to worried about what happens to belkar after he dies, nor as to the how, all I know is that he will die before the Comic year is up, which is great news since none of use know exactly what month it is in the comic anyways, which means it could be anytime the Oracle has foreseen.

but we can presume what month it is. since it was new year some time before tha battle at AC, and roy has been dead for about 4 months, it could well be that there are about 6-8 months left in the ongoing year, if the oracle is usng the southern calendar ( which is more probable ), but if he is using the northern calendar, that shortens it bu 2-3 months.... in that case he's got between 3-6 months... in both cases it could take a long time for this time to pass in comic, and Belkar might die in the end of the comic......

[silvadel]

Oooooh -- That would be an interesting set of panels...

Redcloak and/or Xykon going to meet the oracle.

[teratorn]

I wish I could do like Haley: "later that year..."

I's sure the "memory problem" will be dealt with in the next strip

Eugene will tell Roy that he won't remember this stuff when he's goes back to life, and that's what the Oracle was talking about. The only thing about the afterlife he'll remember is the prophecy about Belkar's death.

[shylocxs]

Wow, Rich is just moving these comics out the door at a flying pace. It's almost hard to keep up, but what a pleasure to do so.

[David Argall]

but we can presume what month it is.

We are pretty sure of the season, Summer, but the rest is not so clear.

By the Southern Calendar, The party left the city on Jan 1 and spent at least 2-3 days reaching the Oracle. Leaving the Oracle, Nale contacts them and demands they be in Cliffport by Tuesday(?-anyway less than a week to get there.) They rush back to AC and teleport. Date can't be later than the 15th, or earlier that the 6th.
They return to Azure city 3 1/2 days later and have some fun in the night with Nale 10-19th. Next day Miko does her thing and the day after that Roy dies, 12-21th.
Roy spends 103 days loafing in Heaven and 9 days running down the mountain. Call it 113 for fractions here and there and it's May 5-14.
Lady Kato is 8 weeks along, with a flat belly. In our next visit, she has a substantial belly and may be 5 months along. So August.
V has been working on a new sending spell, which would take a minimum of 1 week a level. The spell is likely 6th-7th, and so at least early July.
But Haley seems to have left AC in early May. By our earlier calendar, she would have reached the Oracle within a week and would not have turned around to return if she had gone past it a month ago. It's not easy to put a date of past June 1 on her.
We can limit the conflict a bit if we assume it took her some time to arrange to leave AC. She did have to arrange a peace conference and that can take quite awhile. Then some time to put the new leader in place. Still, it's hard to see months of this.
We might also just declare that AC expectant mothers annouce that status by wearing lots of clothing around the waist until the pregnancy is visible. That would cut a month or so off, and maybe we can make a date of July 1 fly.

[Zachharmonic]

Stone dead, demised, passed on, no more, ceased to be, expired and gone to meet his maker, a stiff, bereft of life he will sleep in peace, pushing up daisies, his metabolic processes will be history, off the twig (what does that mean?), kicked the bucket, shuffled off the mortal coil, run down the curtain and join the bleeding choir invisible, an ex-Belkar.


This is only my first post here, but this is already my favorite post! haha :smallbiggrin:


Anyways regarding Belkar I also am of the opinion that he will be stone dead at some point and time, weather or not he plays any kind of role in the afterlife remains to be seen though

[the_tick_rules]

Draw his last breathe, ever. So how can that be twisted in typical oracle fashion? Belkar gain some special ability or die and become an undead who don't breathe? Somehow I just don't see it being a straight up death, that's too simple.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Somehow I just don't see it being a straight up death, that's too simple.

That's exactly what he wants you to think.

[DrivinAllNight]

(SNIPPED) off the twig (what does that mean?)

(It's not a thread until someone quotes Monty Python)


I believe it is in line with leaves that fall off of branches or twigs, once they do they are dead and no more too have life.

And course if I am wrong, someone will easily correct me.

[charles]

point??
and it doesn't mean he will cause the death of V....
I was just pointing out the extra things that Roy will remember as a result of his visit.

The oracle certainly hinted that Belkar will cause the death of V (even if it's something as remote as handing her a ring of jumping +20) but I guess the real message we should take from this, is that V will die

I wonder if it's some strange thing like DragonBall's Fusion where V and Belkar will merge into Varkar *PMSL*. Or even something as simple as Belkar's soul getting transferred into another being or object (such as V casting another ultimate spell to find them and managing to call Belkar's soul into her/his body... ARGHH).

[David Argall]

The oracle certainly hinted that Belkar will cause the death of V (even if it's something as remote as handing her a ring of jumping +20) but I guess the real message we should take from this, is that V will die

The Oracle's comment suggests rather the opposite, that V is not in any notable danger from Belkar.
Belkar caused death of Roy - a reasonable case even if the party didn't like it.
Belkar caused death of Miko - A major stretch

Belkar caused death of horse - A tremendous stretch..

So Belkar caused death of V must have been a fantastic stretch.

[Cataclysm49]

I was pretty sad thinking that RB might kill off one of the characters from OOTS, especially one of my favorites. But since the the oracle is based entirely on loopholes and technicalities, it is likely that Belkar won't be gone for good. "Belkar will breath his last breath." obviously means that belkar will die and can't breath again which means he can't return to normal. However, I find it pretty likely that he will be raised (maybe by xykon) and as undead he doesn't breath...

[charles]

As before. The real message is that V will die. I noted that the Oracle was attempting to link him to it, but the important part is the dying part.

The other message we could take is that Belkar will never be DIRECTLY responsible for V's death, or the Oracle would simply have mentioned that in the first place.


you know, looking back to this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), just how did Goblin Dan remember the tale of how he made his first million after he left the valley? Even if we presume he stayed there, the BBQ Hut couldn't be world famous since everyone else would forget they ate there.

[Carinthium]

I don't think Rich thought of it, and it is a plot hole. But there are some ways to fill it in:

1- The goblin was friends with the Oracle (who presumably allowed it as he had no more use for it), who does favors for his friends he doesn't tell others about.

2- The spell was eventually broken.

3- People have to leave out of a certain way to be affected (limited area of effect?), but this isn't told as to make things more efficent.

Though the more of these are used, the more it stretches credibility.

[Riveth]

I believe it is in line with leaves that fall off of branches or twigs, once they do they are dead and no more too have life.

And course if I am wrong, someone will easily correct me.

I'd guess that expression refers to a squeaker falling out of his nest, but I don't know for sure either.

For the comic, I love the oracle breaking the 4th. Laughed my ass of there. ^^

[Vreejack]

"Lodestone"?

I think Roy meant to say "millstone" there. A lodestone is a good thing to have on a string round your neck.

Steve.

No, he meant lodestone. In Nethack a lodestone is literally a "load stone" which reduces your carrying capacity. They are almost always cursed, making them very difficult to get rid of.

http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Loadstone

[Necron2.0]

So just what "edition" is Roy's Dad playing anyway? It's not 4th I don't think.

No, given the reference to "change" it wouldn't be 4th.

I sure hope Rick has no plans of "upgrading" OotS to 4th edition (AKA New Coke Edition). That'd just nerf the crud out of Vaarsuvius. He'd never be able to contact Haley, Durkon, et al.


Well, at least Belkar WILL buy the farm eventually. I can't say I'm sad about that - in fact, I'M pretty ecstatic. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, well ... that's generally true. Everyone will buy it eventually. Everyone.

EVERYONE!

EV - REEE - 1

[Priceguy]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: the Oracle refers to himself as Belkar's "temporary magic dagger repository". I don't remember any mention of Belkar's daggers being magical before.

[Arkenputtyknife]

No, he meant lodestone. In Nethack a lodestone is literally a "load stone" which reduces your carrying capacity. They are almost always cursed, making them very difficult to get rid of.
This isn't Nethack.

Please see earlier posts on the subject.

[factotum]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: the Oracle refers to himself as Belkar's "temporary magic dagger repository". I don't remember any mention of Belkar's daggers being magical before.

Belkar is level 13. For him to have reached that level and still be using plain old non-magical daggers would not make sense in the context of D&D. Furthermore, he does a LOT of damage with those things--a lot more than the 1d3 (I think) that a standard dagger does; OK, some of that might be from Strength bonuses and the like, but even so, I think we could reasonably have assumed his daggers were magical.

[Selene]

No, given the reference to "change" it wouldn't be 4th.

I sure hope Rick has no plans of "upgrading" OotS to 4th edition (AKA New Coke Edition). That'd just nerf the crud out of Vaarsuvius. He'd never be able to contact Haley, Durkon, et al.

Rich already announced that he isn't upgrading. (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#v99jlZZ8IxKfDCwHZwU)

[Arkenputtyknife]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: the Oracle refers to himself as Belkar's "temporary magic dagger repository". I don't remember any mention of Belkar's daggers being magical before.
Actually, when I first read it, it came over as "magic repository for Belkar's daggers" rather than "repository for Belkar's magic daggers". It hadn't occurred to me that Belkar's daggers might be magic (although that makes sense in hindsight); I'd assumed he had exceptional skill in some kind of rule-twisting smile-and-nod critical hit ability.

[The Gremlin]

Belkar's daggers no doubt are magic, because as a high-leveler he would have to be even more dumb than he already is to not purchase (or, in his case, more likely kill the shopkeeper and steal)some magical daggers. But yes, I think the Oracle was referring to himself as magic.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Rich already announced that he isn't upgrading. (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#v99jlZZ8IxKfDCwHZwU)

Actually, he announced that the OotS would use 4th Edition rules only when it was convenient for a joke.

[Dalenthas]

Clearly Eugene and Roy's Archon are playing 1st Edition. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html).

[David Argall]

Belkar's daggers no doubt are magic, because as a high-leveler he would have to be even more dumb than he already is to not purchase (or, in his case, more likely kill the shopkeeper and steal)some magical daggers. But yes, I think the Oracle was referring to himself as magic.

The Oracle is nearly certainly saying "temporary magic-dagger depository" rather than "temporary magic dagger-depository".
For the purpose of the dagger, the Oracle is not magical. His body has no known special power to harm, improve, or preserve the daggers. It is just another body. We have no reason here for him to be referring to a magic depository.
We do have a reason for him to be referring to a magic dagger. In fact we would not be surprised to find they are +4 daggers [or more likely +1 with 3-18 in specials since Belkar would like doing the extra damage].

[Koretsu]

*reads the new comic*

...Well, squiddleydoodlefluffer...

[Warren Dew]

Even if we presume he stayed there, the BBQ Hut couldn't be world famous since everyone else would forget they ate there.

I've been to quite a few little restaurants that claimed to be "world famous". I'd never heard of any of them before seeing them.

It must be those magic memory erasing fields I keep walking through.

[Ninja]

you know, looking back to this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), just how did Goblin Dan remember the tale of how he made his first million after he left the valley? Even if we presume he stayed there, the BBQ Hut couldn't be world famous since everyone else would forget they ate there.

there are 4 possibilities here :

A) he teleported out the valley with the hydra
B) the valey was abbandoned later, and the charm gone, he just stayed there
C) he is immune to the charm
D) he knew about the charm, wrote everything on paper and when his memory was erased, he just read the paper....

[Frictional]

Is there any significance to the oracle kicking Roy for the particular reason he mentions? That, "I have an important client flying in and dont' want any dead mammals around"? So either a lizardfolk (dragonkin or whatever) or an undead. Xykon maybe? Or a dragon that they may meet later?
Just curious if anyone else thinks there may be some significance to that.

[Jeivar]

I'm torn between disliking the Oracle for being such a ****, and liking him for being so very, very good at it. :)

[factotum]

there are 4 possibilities here :

A) he teleported out the valley with the hydra
B) the valey was abbandoned later, and the charm gone, he just stayed there
C) he is immune to the charm
D) he knew about the charm, wrote everything on paper and when his memory was erased, he just read the paper....

You forgot:

E) He dragged the hydra out of the valley and founded his shop elsewhere. :smallsmile:

[Ninja]

You forgot:

E) He dragged the hydra out of the valley and founded his shop elsewhere. :smallsmile:

no well you see i was talkin about the possibilities of how he didn't forget his story because of the memory charm....... :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

no well you see i was talkin about the possibilities of how he didn't forget his story because of the memory charm....... :smallbiggrin:

But maybe his entire story was "I remember coming out of this valley dragging a hydra--can't remember where I got the thing, but that's how I made my first million!". :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja]

But maybe his entire story was "I remember coming out of this valley dragging a hydra--can't remember where I got the thing, but that's how I made my first million!". :smallbiggrin:

good point... ok so im adding E) (this stuff that factotum said)

[DigoDragon]

Now, I like the oracle. But I do hope they somehow mess up his prophesies. He is a bit too accurate for an oracle.

I give you a cookie. That would be a pretty cool idea for the heroes to accomplish. :smallsmile:


Wouldn't it be ironic if Belkar ended up doing a doodle of himself dieing (within a year or in universe time), with particular emphasis on the fact he was in/exhaling for the last time....

Maybe it's something simply silly like that... or maybe Belkar find a magic ring where he doesn't need to breathe while wearing it; Along the veins like how wearing a D&D "Ring of Sustinence" means you don't have to eat anymore.

[Shatteredtower]

Nope. Simple observed fact. Both within and outside the comic.Assumption, not fact.

We've seen the Oracle hung outside a window, caught off guard by a question, and interupted at bathtime, all of which test the assumption. It's possible that the Oracle was "playing along" in each case, so that his visitors are more likely to underestimate him. It's possible that the Oracle knew, without a doubt, that he'd be interupted at bathtime and there wasn't a thing he could do about it, just as he couldn't do anything to prevent Belkar from killing him.

Possible, but not confirmed as fact.

[Vreejack]

This isn't Nethack.

Please see earlier posts on the subject.

Yes, this isn't Nethack. I am afraid I missed your point. Did you miss mine? The use of the term "lodestone" for something other than a small lump of hematite---and magical component---has been used before, humorously, to refer to an albatross. (Assuming that you agree that puns are humorous.)

Also, I cannot find the earlier posts, except for those referring to it as a magical component or magnetic island of legend. Google just seems to point to my earlier post.

[chiasaur11]

Is there any significance to the oracle kicking Roy for the particular reason he mentions? That, "I have an important client flying in and dont' want any dead mammals around"? So either a lizardfolk (dragonkin or whatever) or an undead. Xykon maybe? Or a dragon that they may meet later?
Just curious if anyone else thinks there may be some significance to that.

Xykon's a dead mammal too. No sense in saying "I don't want any dead mammals around" when the client is one himself.

[Necron2.0]

Rich already announced that he isn't upgrading. (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#v99jlZZ8IxKfDCwHZwU)

DOH!! Yeah, I guess it pays to be observant.

Well, good. He covers pretty much all the concerns I had.

[David Argall]

Assumption, not fact.

We've seen the Oracle hung outside a window, caught off guard by a question, and interupted at bathtime,

None of these challenge the point that when the Oracle says something, it happens. Frequently not as the listener assumes, but it happens. Our general literary image of a prophecy gives us the same picture. The prophet tells the truth, even if he lies by doing so. So a theory that starts by saying the Oracle was wrong is wrong.

[Eric]

Xykon's a dead mammal too. No sense in saying "I don't want any dead mammals around" when the client is one himself.

Well, the "dead mammals" is not a good reason for that assertion.

a) Xykon isn't dead. He's undead.
b) He doesn't like Roy, so this could be rubbing his nose in it.

[The Gremlin]

Xykon's a dead mammal too. No sense in saying "I don't want any dead mammals around" when the client is one himself.
Actually, he's an undead mammal.
You're right, though, I don't think it's Xykon.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Yes, this isn't Nethack. I am afraid I missed your point. Did you miss mine? The use of the term "lodestone" for something other than a small lump of hematite---and magical component---has been used before, humorously, to refer to an albatross. (Assuming that you agree that puns are humorous.)

Also, I cannot find the earlier posts, except for those referring to it as a magical component or magnetic island of legend. Google just seems to point to my earlier post.
I asked the millstone/lodestone question early on in this thread, and SPoD gave the most helpful answer:

You're looking for a real world definition in a D&D joke. In most editions of D&D, there is a cursed magic item called a "loadstone" that magically increases your encumbrance to maximum (i.e. a heavy load). This is a reference to that, although the spelling is wrong.
I vaguely remember seeing "loadstones" way back when I was still playing D&D, but whether it was in the rulebooks, a module, or a magazine article is long forgotten. The point about this not being Nethack is that the object has existed in D&D for a long, long time, but the spelling was changed.

It's the Giant's call, of course, but personally I hope he changes it to "loadstone", because I'm not the only one who was confused by this.

As for puns, yes, I find them humorous. I have to. If I didn't, I'd have to shoot my best friend every day. :smallyuk:

[holywhippet]

Maybe it's something simply silly like that... or maybe Belkar find a magic ring where he doesn't need to breathe while wearing it; Along the veins like how wearing a D&D "Ring of Sustinence" means you don't have to eat anymore.

I don't doubt that the Giant has some kind of plot twist or situation in mind, but enough of what the Oracle has said indicates that Belkar will die permanently. Undeath is about the only thing that might keep him from being out of the comic forever.

[Stormoverkrynn]

I been wondering lately when everything will tie together. Roy may remember that Belkar will die before the end of the year even after he is raised. When he is raised the last thing he will remember is falling to his death and at that point he will be asking alot of questions. Roy knowing that Belkar will die might change things also. The future isnt definate and can always be changed, even an Oracle can have an off day. In most D & D campaigns if a character dies they either get raised or replaced. So maybe we will start to see a new party member appear like a certain captured paladin or a green Ninja perhaps? At this point it is all speculation though. Keeping in mind that currently there is 4 set of events going on. 1. Roy in spirit form. 2. Elan, V, and Durkan trying to help the Paladins out. 3. Haley, Belkar and Roys G-friend who are trying to get Roy raised. 4. Our lich friend and his captured paladin. It will be very interesting to see how things pan out from this point.

[Pandabear]

Well, the "dead mammals" is not a good reason for that assertion.

a) Xykon isn't dead. He's undead.
b) He doesn't like Roy, so this could be rubbing his nose in it.

Don't ghosts count as undead too?

[factotum]

Don't ghosts count as undead too?

Roy's spirit doesn't appear to be a ghost in the D&D sense of the word, because he doesn't have any of a ghost's abilities--he'd be able to appear to Haley and the others by himself if he did. Therefore he's just a disconnected spirit, not an undead.

[hamishspence]

What is Roy in Celestia: petitioner? Spirit? Complete divine had spirits, which weren't solid like most petitioners: couldn't harm or be harmed normally.

[DigoDragon]

I don't doubt that the Giant has some kind of plot twist or situation in mind, but enough of what the Oracle has said indicates that Belkar will die permanently. Undeath is about the only thing that might keep him from being out of the comic forever.

The Giant has proven otherwise in past oracle prophesies :smallsmile: We're all going to have to wait and see how literal or offbeat the interpretation of this one will turn out.



What is Roy in Celestia: petitioner? Spirit?

Freelance soul?

[Pandabear]

Roy's spirit doesn't appear to be a ghost in the D&D sense of the word, because he doesn't have any of a ghost's abilities--he'd be able to appear to Haley and the others by himself if he did. Therefore he's just a disconnected spirit, not an undead.

I guess that makes sense.. Roy's spirit not being undead does feel kind of counter-intuitive with his spirit being on the material plane and all, but not being earthbound seems like reason enough not to consider him undead..

[The Gremlin]

The Giant has proven otherwise in past oracle prophesies :smallsmile: We're all going to have to wait and see how literal or offbeat the interpretation of this one will turn out.




Freelance soul?
He is an Oathspirit, I believe. Don't know what that is, but I remember somebody in the comic mentioning it...

[Arkenputtyknife]

I just noticed: "repository" is misspelled in the second panel.

Geeze, I'm getting slow in my old age.

[Eric]

He is an Oathspirit, I believe. Don't know what that is, but I remember somebody in the comic mentioning it...

Isn't that what Eugene is? Not Roy.

After all, Eugene could only appear to Roy because of the oath and the sword of the family.

[Shatteredtower]

None of these challenge the point that when the Oracle says something, it happens.Again, you're making an assumption based on the fact that the Oracle has, thus far, proven to be right about a few of the things he's said and done.


So a theory that starts by saying the Oracle was wrong is wrong.There's that circular reasoning again.

[Eric]

There's that circular reasoning again.

He preferrs to think of it as a train of thought with no loose ends.

People, if you can read the Blue Adept series by Piers Anthony. An oracle that tells the future, but is still able to manipulate things because of it's presumed accuracy and ensure that it happens.

Or take a look at the depiction of Rogen the seer (who can see the probably and possible futures) in the Riftwar trilogy by Raymond E Feist.

How about Muad'dib's prophetic powers (and his son, Leto II) in the Dune series. Mnipulation is possible, but only in places and with risk. That future can be avoided, but that may mean different (bad) choices come up.

If you want something VERY appropriate to OOTSiverse, I forget which one it was, but one Terry Pratchett diskworld novel has Death biding his time reading a Whodunit. Commenting "It's pointless. You already know who did it because you can just go on to the end of the book and find out. So you only have suspense because you allow there to be suspense".

EDIT: nupanick, you're probably right. It was one with Commander Vimes in, but there's been a few. The fact I couldn't even remember the title should have been a hint that the quote was "something like this anyway". And you could well be right about the wording. Meaning is about right, though.

[Eric]

So a theory that starts by saying the Oracle was wrong is wrong.

So the Oracle can still manipulate things to ensure the future he sees comes true. That's not saying the Oracle is wrong. Ergo it can still be true.

However, that doesn't require any oracular power, just a good psychology degree, a lack of personal ethics and an a priori assumption by everyone else that you do genuinely know the future.

Heck, warriers have Goad (or did, it may have been in one of the numerous additional books for AD&D).

Guess what it does.

[nupanick]

I'm of the opinion that the Oracle is always right. True, logically he might not be, but what does logic have to do with this? The overarching plot is already planned, so the Oracle's predictions can be written in advance as well (although one of the predictions about Belkar was recently shown to be self-fulfilling).

This much aside, I think Belkar will die or not die however he was already going to, I doubt Roy will say much about his experience to the others (if he is even ever raised).

And as for the "last breath" theories, the Oracle has already poked fun at our theories of how the prophecies will be fulfilled, and I'd just as well assume that there's nothing really special about Belkar's death unless he does something uncharacteristic in the process (throwing himself into the Snarl, etc, etc).

This being said, I like the idea that Belkar hears the prediction and acts upon it but fails (i.e. tries to become immortal and either succedes and no longer needs to breathe or fails and is truly dead).

And the theories about coming back as a lich, constuct, ghost, etc. are Needlessly Complicated enough to warrant even Nale's disapproval. Although we've seen what happens when Belkar gets even a few more points of Wis, right?

And the poor fourth wall is as broken as in any other well-made fictional prediction (with some notable exceptions, i.e. Harry Potter never breaks the fourth wall that I can remember) in the sense that either the Audience (on the other side of the OOTS' Ricepaper Fourth Wall) will figure out what the prediction means before the characters finish stumbling around and cause it to happen, or else the reader is left guessing and a character figures it out just before it happens (as was the case with two earlier predictions, one of which was NOT even given directly by the Oracle!).

In closing, I don't think Belkar will UnDie and I wonder how Eugene knew what would happen "When the goat turns," given that the OOTS had not even met the LG when the prediction was made.

[nupanick]

If you want something VERY appropriate to OOTSiverse, I forget which one it was, but one Terry Pratchett diskworld novel has Death biding his time reading a Whodunit. Commenting "It's pointless. You already know who did it because you can just go on to the end of the book and find out. So you only have suspense because you allow there to be suspense".

The book is Thud! and I don't think that's how it was phrased, the words "last page" were in there somewhere, and I don't remember him saying anything about Suspense.

[David Argall]

Again, you're making an assumption based on the fact that the Oracle has, thus far, proven to be right about a few of the things he's said and done.
I can say the same thing about 2+2=4. Every time I test it, it works.
So far we have not seen the Oracle get one wrong, so he too has a 100% record.


There's that circular reasoning again.
Not the same thing.
Circular reasoning would be "I, the Oracle, am always right, which proves I am the Oracle who is always right.
The reasoning here is "The Oracle has always been right. Therefore he will continue to be right." One statement connects to reality and the evidence. The other doesn't.



if you can read the Blue Adept series by Piers Anthony. An oracle that tells the future, but is still able to manipulate things because of it's presumed accuracy and ensure that it happens.
It's been quite some time since I read those, but you seem to be referring to a different kind of prophet than we have here. Our blue oracle sees possible futures and selects one. Our OOTS oracle sees one future, which he doesn't entirely like, and which he has no power to select or change. We see no sign that our Oracle is trying to manipulate the future, beyond his own personal whims.

Of course, it works out to the same thing. What either oracle says does happen. And we would return to saying that a theory that says the Oracle is wrong is wrong.

[Warren Dew]

So the Oracle can still manipulate things to ensure the future he sees comes true. That's not saying the Oracle is wrong. Ergo it can still be true.

However, that doesn't require any oracular power, just a good psychology degree, a lack of personal ethics and an a priori assumption by everyone else that you do genuinely know the future.

Please explain how "good psychology" permits the oracle to guarantee the accuracy of Haley's prediction. That one seems to me out of the oracle's control - as do most of the others, for that matter.

[Zaragon]

Since Roy was playing 1st, I'd imagine Eugene is also playing 1st.

Death at -10 hit points existing but as an optional rule marks it as first or second edition.

I couldn't remember this clearly, and it bothered me enough to look it up. According to my first edition DMG, pg 82 (under hitpoints in the index, no wonder they can't find it), it's NOT an optional rule in 1st edition. In second edition (DMG p74-75, under death in the index) it's a completely optional rule called "hovering on death's door", and it states characters die at 0 hit points without that rule.

:smallconfused:

But Roy was clearly playing 1st edition, so I'm confused.

[Selene]

it's NOT an optional rule in 1st edition.

I'm glad you said that, because I was wondering why I'd never heard of it when I was playing 1st Ed.

[Eric]

Please explain how "good psychology" permits the oracle to guarantee the accuracy of Haley's prediction. That one seems to me out of the oracle's control - as do most of the others, for that matter.

Who said anything about "guarantee"? I didn't.

The questions asked and how they were answered doesn't *require* oracular power, just observation. We already know the fourth wall missing allows the characters to know a lot we would have hidden from us.

[Eric]

I can say the same thing about 2+2=4. Every time I test it, it works.
So far we have not seen the Oracle get one wrong, so he too has a 100% record.

No, that's not the same. "X+Y=4 works if X and Y are both 2" but "forgetting" that it also works if X=4 and Y=0, etc.


Circular reasoning would be "I, the Oracle, am always right, which proves I am the Oracle who is always right.

The reasoning here is "The Oracle has always been right. Therefore he will continue to be right."

No, that isn't circular reasoning. "The Oracle is right therefore the Oracle is right" or, as pointed out "Anything saying the oracle is wrong is wrong". your earlier statement was circular reasoning. If I'm right about the Sun coming up tomorrow that doesn't mean I'm right that aliens are invading.




It's been quite some time since I read those, but you seem to be referring to a different kind of prophet than we have here. Our blue oracle sees possible futures and selects one. Our OOTS oracle sees one future, which he doesn't entirely like, and which he has no power to select or change. We see no sign that our Oracle is trying to manipulate the future, beyond his own personal whims.

No, the "blue adept" oracle doesn't do that. It predicts the future and is never wrong. Obscure maybe, but not wrong. But the prediction can be self-fulfilling. This Oracle my not like the future he sees, but who says he doesn't have the power to change? This is another example of circular reasoning:

"This Oracle doesn't have the power to change the future he sees because I don't see him changing the future he sees. What? He's ensured that one prediction came true by manipulation? No, I just told you he can't change the future".

We see this oracle telling Belkar a load of cack about how he was right rather than say "OK, here's a refund" which would not have wound up a psychopathic halfling and the halfling would not have thought of killing him then (he'd not killed the Oracle the last time he'd seen him.). This could have been deliberate goading to ensure that the prediction comes true. After all, all the Oracle gets is a little pain and resurrected, but he gets to keep his high-paying job (predicting the future would not pay if he'd been wrong even once, so there's a reason for manipulation for you) and he also gets to torment someone else until death.

So the actions we've seen can be manipulation rather than just accepting predestined fate and we also see a good motive for this. Two motives.

But your responses of "The oracle doesn't manipulate the present to bring about the future because he can't" is circular reasoning or has no basis in being correct.

[Ninja]

But Roy was clearly playing 1st edition, so I'm confused.

well, Eugene probably wanted to play 2nd edition so they changed... too bad he didn't remember that rule.... :smallbiggrin:

[Eric]

well, Eugene probably wanted to play 2nd edition so they changed... too bad he didn't remember that rule.... :smallbiggrin:

My house rule was

1) Good aligned characters: when a hit takes you to 0 or less HP, you are out of luck. The next hit will kill you. If it's continual damage, the next taking of damage kills you.
2) Neutral and Evil characters/monsters: when a hit takes you to 0 or less HP, your deity collects your soul. You're dead.

munchkins take N or E alignments because they get all the benefits of being a PC but don't have pesky restrictions like "not using poison" or "no reversed or 'harm' spells". It gives L1 characters a better chance (I also allow a reroll on a 1 for HP and full HP 1st level, the reroll one meaning that the average fighter roll for HP each level is 5. Which makes the moster "average" of 5HP equitable) and ensures that the masses of monsters of low level don't get two bites of the cherry, making it a little more "heroic".

Of course, the ability to use poison etc means you're more fragile. So there's a trade-off.

[teratorn]

I never understood why Roy was the only one to ask questions related to their quest when they visited the oracle before. I wonder why none of them asked simple stuff like "will the Snarl undo this world?" or "will we stop Xykon?" Elan was the one who got the closest to this kind of questions. Ok, I understand it was a plot thing, but it still looks a bit strange, at least in what concerns Durkon -- thinking of himself instead of his mission.



How about Muad'dib's prophetic powers (and his son, Leto II) in the Dune series. Mnipulation is possible, but only in places and with risk. That future can be avoided, but that may mean different (bad) choices come up.

Leto chose a future, the «Golden Path», where regular humans would be hidden from prescience (Siona and her descendents) in order to avoid human extinction at the hands of Ixian machinery. I wonder if something similar would apply here. If the future can be changed and Tiamat can see the possible outcomes, then why aren't the gods more active in preventing what Redcloak is doing?

If Tiamat can not factor into its predictions stuff related to the Snarl and the rifts, then the gods are not aware of Redcloak's full plan (and Redcloak wouldn't gain much from asking the oracle).

[Ninja]

I never understood why Roy was the only one to ask questions related to their quest when they visited the oracle before.

They asked what they did because tthose things are the most important to them. Or were at that moment. Belkat is a socyopath ( or w/e its spelled) and cares only for killing so he asked id he will kill some of the people he hates. Durkon was sent away from his homeland and his wish is to return there so he asks how will it happen. Elan... well Elan is Elan so he asked about the story ending. V woshes to achieve the ultimate arcane power more than anything and so he asked how will he do it. Haley was unable to speak so she asked how will she get her speech back. And Roy was just looking to complete this Oath.....
so they asked the things that were the most important to them than....

[teratorn]

They asked what they did because tthose things are the most important to them. Or were at that moment.
More important than saving the world?

But it speaks of bad leadership from Roy, they should have prepared the thing as a team. It's true each member payed for his/her questions, but, nonetheless, if the destiny of the world was at stake they should have focused on that (Haley's question is different, her speach was important if she wanted to function properly within the group).

EDIT: oh and Roy wasn't doing that for the oath anymore, he said so to Eugene. He was doing it because it was his duty.

[Ninja]

More important than saving the world?

to you and me it is not, but to them it is....

[silvadel]

I never understood why Roy was the only one to ask questions related to their quest when they visited the oracle before. I wonder why none of them asked simple stuff like "will the Snarl undo this world?" or "will we stop Xykon?" Elan was the one who got the closest to this kind of questions. Ok, I understand it was a plot thing, but it still looks a bit strange, at least in what concerns Durkon -- thinking of himself instead of his mission.



Leto chose a future, the «Golden Path», where regular humans would be hidden from prescience (Siona and her descendents) in order to avoid human extinction at the hands of Ixian machinery. I wonder if something similar would apply here. If the future can be changed and Tiamat can see the possible outcomes, then why aren't the gods more active in preventing what Redcloak is doing?

If Tiamat can not factor into its predictions stuff related to the Snarl and the rifts, then the gods are not aware of Redcloak's full plan (and Redcloak wouldn't gain much from asking the oracle).

That would have been a HORRIBLE question to ask the oracle. If you ask the oracle if the snarl will destroy the world and he says yes then the game is over. It has been set in stone and you will lose.

With oracles you always have to give yourself an out -- kind of like the unpredicted escape method for villians to not be killed/captured. If you dont have it then you go to jail and the heroes laugh at you.

Until you asked the question you had a chance -- once the answer is granted it becomes part of the "past" and unchangable...

-----

As for roys groups actual questions -- the problem Roy made was asking his question last. Then there is no room for error -- he had to go first so if they got a stupid answer to his question, others could ask a follow-up -- otherwise they could ask whatever they wanted.

[Warren Dew]

No, that's not the same. "X+Y=4 works if X and Y are both 2" but "forgetting" that it also works if X=4 and Y=0, etc.

David Argall is correct here. David's theory accurately accounts for how all the predictions have been fulfilled so far. Your theory fails to account for Haley's prediction or any of the others, and while you seem to think it accounts for Belkar's, others think it fails even there.

[Grey Watcher]

I never understood why Roy was the only one to ask questions related to their quest when they visited the oracle before. I wonder why none of them asked simple stuff like "will the Snarl undo this world?" or "will we stop Xykon?" Elan was the one who got the closest to this kind of questions. Ok, I understand it was a plot thing, but it still looks a bit strange, at least in what concerns Durkon -- thinking of himself instead of his mission.

For the team in general, I think they're sort of assuming that they WILL prevent the unleashing of the Snarl... somehow. One of those "the alternative is too horrible to contemplate" things. If you think about it, "Will the Snarl undo the world?" would generate an answer that's about as useful as "In his throne room." It's not information that helps them in anyway, and if the answer's not what you want, it's just depressing. I mean, even if "yes, the Snarl will unmake the world" doesn't actually say the Order will fail. Maybe the Order will succeed, but the Snarl will finally break free 27,447,963 years from now.

As for Durkon, specifically, well, he IS only mortal. Yes, objectively, stopping Xykon and the Snarl is more important, but I honestly can't say that if I had a chance to ask a Divine Oracle a question, I'd probably ask something more personal. Durkon trusts Roy and Thor to guide him where he needs to go to save the world. But he has no idea if that path will ever lead home. Hence, he asks about that.

Besides, coercing the rest of the Order into asking quest-relevant questions isn't exactly consistent with Roy tearing up their contracts and letting them know they're free to come and go as they wish.

[Eric]

David Argall is correct here. David's theory accurately accounts for how all the predictions have been fulfilled so far. Your theory fails to account for Haley's prediction or any of the others, and while you seem to think it accounts for Belkar's, others think it fails even there.

But, like X+Y=4 when X=4 and Y=0, Argyll's thory isn't the ONLY accurate theory.

Oracle manipulating actions can also fit the theory accurately. Just in case this is the unspoken problem, this does NOT mean that he ONLY manipulates the future, just that he CAN and DID in the case of Belkar's (rather silly) query.

After all, if the Oracle couldn't change it, why not just say "you'll kill me"? Why bother with all the BS answers to avoid a refund if he knew they would not work? And if there is NO WAY to avoid a prediction, then there was no choice on Belkar's part either, the death was inevitable and Belkar has no blame.

[David Argall]

Oracle manipulating actions can also fit the theory accurately.
The key word here is "can". There are a lot of things that can happen, and most of them are highly unlikely. We may not immediately label them wrong, but we largely disregard them until we get some supporting evidence.



After all, if the Oracle couldn't change it, why not just say "you'll kill me"? Why bother with all the BS answers to avoid a refund if he knew they would not work?
Why not? People do things they know durn well won't work all the time. And the Oracle is controlled by the rule of funny. Just as he knows all and is still interrupted in his bath, he is allowed to refer to various theories about what the prophecy meant.



And if there is NO WAY to avoid a prediction, then there was no choice on Belkar's part either, the death was inevitable and Belkar has no blame.
So? That doesn't seem to impact the question of whether the Oracle is always right or not. The universe has a long history of ignoring what you think is a good idea.