Class and Level Geekery IV (some [spoiler]s)

[RMS Oceanic]

we did talk about this before, but you can read Obscuring mist to not do so.


The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).

"5 feet away" means "an adjacent square", as far as I know. Just for context, everybody I've spoken to interprets "10 feet away" to meaning "two squares away".

[vrellum]

I don't think Haley has any special feat or ability that allows her to sneak attack targets with concealment. If you look at panel 611, Belkar three low-level rogues SA him. I doubt they all have concealment-defeating feats. Either the spell doesn't grant concealment to adjacent (nearby) targets or the Giant is house-ruling how SA works on concealed targets.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't think Haley has any special feat or ability that allows her to sneak attack targets with concealment. If you look at panel 611, Belkar three low-level rogues SA him. I doubt they all have concealment-defeating feats. Either the spell doesn't grant concealment to adjacent (nearby) targets or the Giant is house-ruling how SA works on concealed targets.The mist is dissipating by that point, though.

[vrellum]

True, but it's not gone yet. Also an 8th level thief tries to sneak attack Haley in strip 604, but fails. Not because of concealment, but because he's not high enough level. Also in 604 the halfling clearly expected Haley to sneak up on them and deliver a SA. It's possible that he would know of some feat/special ability that would allow her to SA in instances where others would not, but it seems more likely given everything else that the conditions did not rule out "normal" SA.

[baerdith]

Haley haz bow!!


Lost +3 gain +4? +5?

[lord_khaine]

"5 feet away" means "an adjacent square", as far as I know. Just for context, everybody I've spoken to interprets "10 feet away" to meaning "two squares away".


and as far as i know, 5 feet away actualy means 5 feet away, as in 1 square away.
and i do find it a bit funny if the same people who considder 5 feet = 0 square, also think 10 feet = 2 squares.

[RMS Oceanic]

Wait, doesn't "1 square away" mean "a square adjacent to you"?

As for the bow thing, wait until we actually see her with one. Hopefully she'll be nice enough to boast about its properties.

[Hydro Globus]

She won't. I'm hoping instead among the lines of Vaarsuvius (or maybe Durkon) congratulating to Haley for aquiring a new, +4 (?) longbow.

[Chronos]

and i do find it a bit funny if the same people who considder 5 feet = 0 square, also think 10 feet = 2 squares.No, 0 squares (or 0 feet) away is for folks grappling, or tiny creatures, or the like. 1 square (5 feet) away is people going at it with swords or the like, and 2 squares (10 feet) would be a couple of folks fighting with longspears.

[Hydro Globus]

What I find funny is that a cube with an edge-length (IDK the appropiate word in English) of 5 is assumed to be half the size of that with 10.

[lord_khaine]

No, 0 squares (or 0 feet) away is for folks grappling, or tiny creatures, or the like. 1 square (5 feet) away is people going at it with swords or the like, and 2 squares (10 feet) would be a couple of folks fighting with longspears

i disagree, 1 square away means there is 1 square between you and your target, so you would need something with reach to hit him, something 10 feet away would then be out of the reach of longspears.

[hamishspence]

1 square gap between your square and his isn't the same thing as "1 square away"-

saying: "he's 0 squares away" is the same as "he's adjacent" leads to problems.

[Optimystik]

From a logical standpoint:

0 Squares away = I'm in your square (grappling, hugging, etc.)
1 square away = My square is next to yours (slash and parry)
2 squares away = There is an empty square between us (reach weapons)
3 squares away = There are two empty squares between our squares
etc.

Substitute "5-foot increment" for the word "square" above and you should be good.

[Mc. Lovin']

That's the way I was looking at it Opty, however maybe we should get one of the people in the question thread of the D20 forum to check for us :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Put it this way: If "zero squares away" is adjacent squares, then how many squares away are two folks who are grappling?

[Hydro Globus]

Negative 5? :O

[vrellum]

So based on the last comic, Haley may have improved precise shot. If so, she would also have at least a +11 BAB and might be as high as 15th level.

[Shadic]

The stats of her new weapon should be obvious?

[Draz74]

So based on the last comic, Haley may have improved precise shot. If so, she would also have at least a +11 BAB and might be as high as 15th level.

I thought so too. Woohoo, this is the closest we've gotten to confirmation that they're up to Level 15. (My best guess, until this point, was "something in the 13-15 range.")

And yet Belkar still seems not to have Uncanny Dodge somehow (based on the Acid Arrow Sneak Attack) ... did he go back to Ranger levels after 1 level of Barbarian? Or is he still Level 12?

[amanamana]

About the squares/feet discussion, just want to clarify that, in my last post, which brought the discussion back, I was mistakenly thinking about "more than 5 feet away", instead of just "5 feet away".
That's what you get from being in a forum in a foreign language without sleeping for a long time...:smallfrown:

[SPoD]

I thought so too. Woohoo, this is the closest we've gotten to confirmation that they're up to Level 15. (My best guess, until this point, was "something in the 13-15 range.")

There's still a discrepancy: Haley only shoots three arrows when making a "Rapid Shot Sneak Attack". If she had a BAB of +11, she would shoot FOUR arrows with Rapid Shot. So, she may have just been given the feat illegally to explain her making Sneak Attacks in partial concealment.

[baerdith]

Confirmed: Haley haz a +5 Icy Burst Bow of Minty-Freshness!!
--
Me WANT!
---------

So What Feat does Haley have that "can do most" of the properties of a seeking bow? IPS seems the only logical choice...

[Dragonmuncher]

Yeah, looks like it's gotta be IPS

[RMS Oceanic]

I've been thinking about the Rapid Shot faux pas. And reading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot) the appropriate rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack). Can anyone point out where it says that when making a full attack, one is required to use all the attacks available to you? I know barbarians in a rage have to, but I doubt Haley has decided on that particular course.

[Chronos]

Well, you're not required to, but you'd be kind of foolish to only make part of a full attack and then stop. Unless you ran out of targets, of course, which she didn't.

On another note, we're probably not recording stats for Pete, but we can now say that he's definitely not chaotic, and is probably lawful, or he wouldn't own an axiomatic bow.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, you're not required to, but you'd be kind of foolish to only make part of a full attack and then stop. Unless you ran out of targets, of course, which she didn't.

Her other target, Hank, was ten feet away. Every fog spell in core grants total concealment, rather than concealment, when farther than five feet away. This means she couldn't attack him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment), as Improved Precise Shot does squat against total concealment. Even if she believed he was in that square, she probably didn't want to waste the arrow.

[vrellum]

On Haley's level and improved precise shot. She does say that she has a feat that does most of what seeking does. Indicating that seeking is better than her feat. But improved precise shot is better than seeking, so maybe she has a different feat.

[RMS Oceanic]

Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) works against Total Concealment. Improved Precise Shot doesn't. That's what she means by "does most of that".

[Kurald Galain]

Per today's coming, Celia doesn't know any buff spells, or she would have, you know, cast them on Haley. Neither does she know any teleportation magic, but she's probably too low-level for that.

[Mercenary Pen]

Per today's coming, Celia doesn't know any buff spells, or she would have, you know, cast them on Haley. Neither does she know any teleportation magic, but she's probably too low-level for that.

Not guaranteed- considering the whole spiel about not betraying her principles. Possibly she considered that buffing Haley would make her an accessory to all the mindless killing.

[Kurald Galain]

Not guaranteed- considering the whole spiel about not betraying her principles. Possibly she considered that buffing Haley would make her an accessory to all the mindless killing.

That's what I thought, until I saw her cheering on Haley in the next panel. She really doesn't mind other people killing, in circumstances like this.

[Wrecan]

I've added Haley's bow, feat and level!!

[Mercenary Pen]

That's what I thought, until I saw her cheering on Haley in the next panel. She really doesn't mind other people killing, in circumstances like this.

But what she does mind, is helping other people to kill stuff- and a buff spell probably counts as helping.

[RMS Oceanic]

You need to update Haley's sneak attack to +8d6.

EDIT: Also, didn't Vaarsuvius say (s)he had the Maximize Spell feat in the Dragon Comics? We're using that as a source of Elan having the Dodge feat, so I think it's just as almost-canon.

[Wrecan]

Good point about the sneak attack (and her trap sense too!) I don't have the Dragon comics. If V had the maximize spell feat, I'll add it in.

[Fitzclowningham]

I just realized that if Haley is level 15, then that makes Bozzock at least 19th level. If he has even 1 fighter level, he's epic.

[vrellum]

I've added Haley's bow, feat and level!!

What about Belkar's feat and dex?

[Kurald Galain]

Good point about the sneak attack (and her trap sense too!) I don't have the Dragon comics. If V had the maximize spell feat, I'll add it in.

I confirm that he does.

[Wrecan]

Yes, you've all convinced me. That's Two-Weapon Pounce. I've updated Belkar's feats and Dex! I also gave V Maximized Spell!

[JaxGaret]

I just realized that if Haley is level 15, then that makes Bozzock at least 19th level. If he has even 1 fighter level, he's epic.

21st level is Epic, not 20th level.

[lord_khaine]

Per today's coming, Celia doesn't know any buff spells, or she would have, you know, cast them on Haley. Neither does she know any teleportation magic, but she's probably too low-level for that.

or it can be she only knows weak spells that would not help Haley, like fx mage armor.

[aapje]

Currently is shows Elan as having a level greater than 1. :smallwink:

[Chronos]

What, do you think he might be level 0? :smalltongue:

[OmegaDonut]

If we're finally going to include Dragon comics stuff, Durkon has a Dex penalty.

Durkon is playing cards with Belkar while waiting for their turn in the inititive order to come up. Their initiative is in the single digits. Durkon is losing to Belkar, and he complains, "Darn it! Me Dex penalty is drivin' me to bankruptcy!"

[aapje]

What, do you think he might be level 0? :smalltongue:

I was just hoping that after all the geekery done there would be a more accurate estimation :smalltongue:

[Dark Matter]

On another note, we're probably not recording stats for Pete, but we can now say that he's definitely not chaotic, and is probably lawful, or he wouldn't own an axiomatic bow.It's his trophy room, he could easily have won it in a contest or taken it off someone's corpse.

[Wrecan]

It doesn't say Elan is level one. It says:

"Bard ≥12/Dashing Swordsman ≥1"

[Amon Star]

It's his trophy room, he could easily have won it in a contest or taken it off someone's corpse.

Also, if he's fought a lot of Chaotics then it would be a wise investment, as you don't have to be Lawful to use it.

[hamishspence]

true, but if he's Chaotic, and his style of behaviour suggests it, he will be coping with a negative level penalty every time he picks it up (will never result in level loss though)

[Grey Watcher]

21st level is Epic, not 20th level.

:roy: Gods, doesn't anyone know the epic rules around here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, so first Belkar trips Jenny, and now Crystal. I'd say that's indicative of Improved Trip.

More importantly, with six attacks per round, Belkar has Greater TWF, and the prerequisite Dex 19.

[Shadic]

Belkar got six attacks in the second panel in this comic.. Suggest anything?

[Illven]

I personally think that Belker has Combat expirtise, Improved trip, and an Int of at least 13

[Istari]

Belker probably has quick draw, since he drew his dagger and full attacked in one panel

Wouldn't Julia The most popular girl in school (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html) have more then 10 charisma?

[Wrecan]

Belkar got six attacks in the second panel in this comic.. Suggest anything?

It means he's at least an 11th level two-weapon fighting ranger. We already knew that. Since he didn't get 7 attacks, he's probably not a 16th level ranger, but that's also not surprising, since he'd have to be 17th level overall to accomplish that, which would put him two levels ahead of Haley.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Belkar got six attacks in the second panel in this comic.. Suggest anything?6 attacks, a Trip, and another attack. The other attack is probably the AoO she provoked from standing(or a bonus from Imp Trip, so it doesn't show anything), and the Trip could be Knockdown. At least 12th level means 3 attacks from AB, toss in one from Speed(weapon or boots) and he only needs Imp Twf which tells us nothing about his stats. But we have narrowed his options somewhat, and Imp TWF is needed either way.

[Yendor]

You've put Haley's bow in amongst Roy's stuff.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) comic, Belkar jumps more than 60' in one attempt(I'm assuming he takes the running start even though he doesn't seem to). That's a DC 65 check. His Ring of Jumping adds 20, Rage adds 2, a nat 20 roll adds 20, ranks add 15(I think they're 12), Tumble adds 2 meaning we need 7 more. 5 can be from feats, meaning he still needs 14 Str minimum, and that's a lot of stuff I'm assuming that he probably doesn't have.

[Illven]

Wrecan Belker just has to be 16th level in order to meet the BAB requirements of seven attacks in round because both Ranger and Barbarian have full base attack bonuses

[baerdith]

Ok, Crystal is still alive, and has like a 4 Int.

[Assassin89]

Ok, Crystal is still alive, and has like a 4 Int.

Crystal's int is not defined in the comic, but it should fall in the range of 3 to 9 due to her stupidity.

[baerdith]

It's a joke, son.

As far as Belkar, he jumped to dodge Crystal's attack, then did his six AND tripped her. That seems a bit like 7 attacks. His flying near death attack was from AoO when she fell, but that trip attack.....

Oh, and just to keep it going, B said find MY cat. Mr. Scruffy is B's AC!!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

As far as Belkar, he jumped to dodge Crystal's attack, then did his six AND tripped her. That seems a bit like 7 attacks. His flying near death attack was from AoO when she fell, but that trip attack.....Could be Knockdown. He would still need either GTWF or a Weapon of Speed, even so. But that does mean there's 3 abilities that boost his # of attacks and he needs 2 of them.

[Hydro Globus]

It means he's at least an 11th level two-weapon fighting ranger. We already knew that. Since he didn't get 7 attacks, he's probably not a 16th level ranger, but that's also not surprising, since he'd have to be 17th level overall to accomplish that, which would put him two levels ahead of Haley.

How exactly?

If he is rng14/bar2, his (base) attacks are 16/11/6/1 and has GTWF, which means an offhand 16/11/6. That's 7.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How exactly?

If he is rng14/bar2, his (base) attacks are 16/11/6/1 and has GTWF, which means an offhand 16/11/6. That's 7.But Haley is only 15 at best, and there's debate over that. Belkar probably isn't higher.

[Chronos]

Is it possible that Crystal did something in panel 3 to provoke an attack of opportunity? Improved Trip I could accept, but nobody's cast Haste on Belkar this fight, and he hasn't had any opportunity to pick up an item of speed since the last time we saw him full-attacking.

We should probably give him credit for Improved Trip (and Combat Expertise and 13 Int), though, since without that he seems to need both an implausibly high level and an item of speed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Is it possible that Crystal did something in panel 3 to provoke an attack of opportunity? Improved Trip I could accept, but nobody's cast Haste on Belkar this fight, and he hasn't had any opportunity to pick up an item of speed since the last time we saw him full-attacking.

We should probably give him credit for Improved Trip (and Combat Expertise and 13 Int), though, since without that he seems to need both an implausibly high level and an item of speed.She's not a caster, so she probably didn't provoke. She could have, but Knockdown works as well for attack #7(Imp Trip doesn't, though it explains why she didn't AoO). And we don't see most of the Order's loot, so he could have looted items of Speed from someone and they just didn't mention it. Or he could have GTWF.

[Hydro Globus]

I think he has 7 attacks, the way I wrote a few posts before. That means 6 normal attack, an Imp. Trip and the last attack an AoO.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think he has 7 attacks, the way I wrote a few posts before. That means 6 normal attack, an Imp. Trip and the last attack an AoO.You don't need Imp Trip to trip. And again, Knockdown works better than him having a level greater than Haley when he's got both an XP penalty and wasn't able to fight for a long while.

[Hydro Globus]

Sure, but then Belkar would need 8 attacks, and it's a bit much, isn't it?

(for the last attack, I didn't mean AoO, I meant the extra attack from the trip, sorry).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sure, but then Belkar would need 8 attacks, and it's a bit much, isn't it?

(for the last attack, I didn't mean AoO, I meant the extra attack from the trip, sorry).Could be the attack Crystal provoked from standing up. And Knockback explains attack #7, meaning he only needs 6.

[Istari]

Belker dropped the shield, then drew a dagger and did six attacks in one panel
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html
Wouldn't he have to have quick draw to do that as a free action?

[Wrecan]

Wrecan Belker just has to be 16th level in order to meet the BAB requirements of seven attacks in round because both Ranger and Barbarian have full base attack bonuses

Point taken. My bad.

[Amon Star]

true, but if he's Chaotic, and his style of behaviour suggests it, he will be coping with a negative level penalty every time he picks it up (will never result in level loss though)

Not really. He could easily be Neutral and use the Axiomatic weapon without the penalty. Also, betraying his friend is more Evil than Chaotic.

[bdh5533]

Belkar should now have quick draw feat added. He drew his dagger and did 6 attacks in one frame. since i believe it is standard that one round = one frame in the geekery thread.

Feat list

Feats (5): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (probably a gag not counted for min level), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce, Quick Draw (minimum level 12, 15 if you count craft disturbing mental image)

Ranger Feats(9): Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Evasion, Swift Tracker, Woodland stride, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting, Wild Empathy, Track

3 favored enemy(my votes would be for humans, horses, elves)

1 animal companion, although unless house ruled in, mr. scruffy as a house cat couldn't be an animal companion by any of the animal companion lists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#alternativeAnimalCompanions)

[Hydro Globus]

3 favored enemy(my votes would be for humans, horses, elves)


There is no way Belkar doesn't have Kobolds (dragonlike humanoids maybe?) as a FE.

[bdh5533]

Also i would propose a few standards for the first page/faq

1 frame = 1 round for geekery purposes

spell animations may count for number of spells cast, and possible damage type, but will not indicate level of spell or exact spell.

anything before the first story arc ending at strip 120, should be first to be over-ridden for any kind of contradictions (the first few strips were more about getting some dnd rules jokes in anyway :smallsmile: )

I'm sure i'm missing some of the things that seem to be standards.

[bdh5533]

There is no way Belkar doesn't have Kobolds (dragonlike humanoids maybe?) as a FE.

lol oh you are right!

Kobolds, Horses, (blue wearing) Humans then :D

[ilikebasketball]

Feat list

Feats (5): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (probably a gag not counted for min level), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce, Quick Draw (minimum level 12, 15 if you count craft disturbing mental image)


Just wondering. Why would a barbarian fighting with two daggers (or shortwords, or in any case, two LIGHT weapons) want to use power attack? Power attack does NOT add damage to light weapons. Taking power attack then means just being allowed to get a -x on attacks, without any bonus.
Improved sunder is also a strange feat to have. I don't recall him sundering stuff (well, the hydra's heads, of course, but that's just about it)


As an aside, hitting 6 attacks on a favored enemy would be something like 70 damage(6d4+6x(favored enemy + weapon + half str) = avg 15+60?), so that would bring down a rogue/assassin pretty quick alright.

[The Minx]

Belkar should now have quick draw feat added. He drew his dagger and did 6 attacks in one frame. since i believe it is standard that one round = one frame in the geekery thread.

Feat list

Feats (5): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (probably a gag not counted for min level), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce, Quick Draw (minimum level 12, 15 if you count craft disturbing mental image)

Ranger Feats(9): Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Evasion, Swift Tracker, Woodland stride, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting, Wild Empathy, Track

That's "Craft (Disturbing Mental Image)", probably a Skill, since there is a skill called "Craft", and you need to further classify it, with possibilities like Craft (Weaponsmithing), Craft (Alchemy), etc.

[Amon Star]

1 animal companion, although unless house ruled in, mr. scruffy as a house cat couldn't be an animal companion by any of the animal companion lists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#alternativeAnimalCompanions)

Seeing as a House Cat is weaker than a Wolf, which is the standard starting animal, most GMs would allow one. Unless the majority of their fights involve first level mages. :smallbiggrin:
lol oh you are right!

Kobolds, Horses, (blue wearing) Humans then :D

Personally, I would say Halflings is far more likely for :belkar: than horses. He has only wanted to kill one horse so far, but wants to murder his entire home village.
That's "Craft (Disturbing Mental Image)", probably a Skill, since there is a skill called "Craft", and you need to further classify it, with possibilities like Craft (Weaponsmithing), Craft (Alchemy), etc.

Yeah, but the Shoeless One specifically calls it a Feat here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Just wondering. Why would a barbarian fighting with two daggers (or shortwords, or in any case, two LIGHT weapons) want to use power attack? Power attack does NOT add damage to light weapons. Taking power attack then means just being allowed to get a -x on attacks, without any bonus. He needs it to get Imp. Sunder.
Improved sunder is also a strange feat to have. I don't recall him sundering stuff (well, the hydra's heads, of course, but that's just about it)The hydra would have gotten 20+ Attacks of Opportunity on him if he didn't have it. Yes, it's an odd feat, and needs a useless one for him to get it, but there is proof he has it.

[Hydro Globus]

Do we know that the hydra didn't get 20+ AoOs?

Hydrae have quite low attack mods (+6 for the five-headed), so most AoOs wouldn't hit (I don't know how high Belkar's AC is).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Do we know that the hydra didn't get 20+ AoOs?

Hydrae have quite low attack mods (+6 for the five-headed), so most AoOs wouldn't hit (I don't know how high Belkar's AC is).Each head Belkar Sunders provokes an AoO from all of them. We didn't see any wiffs or swings, let alone hits, when Belkar sundered the first head. In all probability, Improved Sunder.

[lord_khaine]

Each head Belkar Sunders provokes an AoO from all of them. We didn't see any wiffs or swings, let alone hits, when Belkar sundered the first head. In all probability, Improved Sunder.


that hydra is allready moving out of normal d&d rules by the number of heads it have, it could very well be that Belkar could cut its heads with normal attacks.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I know you're not statting him out, at least not yet, but the Cleric of Loki is at most 12th level, as Resurrection is beyond his caster level. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html)

...This has probably been mentioned before, and I just didn't see it, but if it hasn't, well, there you go.

[bdh5533]

Yeah, but the Shoeless One specifically calls it a Feat here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html)

oh i know, but this is more of a joke than anything else, since it isn't an actual feat in any core or splatbook, i personally don't think it really counts. :smallbiggrin:

[Amon Star]

oh i know, but this is more of a joke than anything else, since it isn't an actual feat in any core or splatbook, i personally don't think it really counts. :smallbiggrin:

I agree with that, but if we did include it, then it would be a Feat, not a skill.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) comic, Belkar jumps more than 60' in one attempt(I'm assuming he takes the running start even though he doesn't seem to). That's a DC 65 check. His Ring of Jumping adds 20, Rage adds 2, a nat 20 roll adds 20, ranks add 15(I think they're 12), Tumble adds 2 meaning we need 7 more. 5 can be from feats, meaning he still needs 14 Str minimum, and that's a lot of stuff I'm assuming that he probably doesn't have.Reposted because there were no comments. Does anyone have any reason why this isn't evidence for at least a 14 Str for Belkar?

[Hydro Globus]

Why more then 60'? He has 20' movement allowance, double moving is 40'.

[Morty]

Why more then 60'? He has 20' movement allowance, double moving is 40'.

He's got one or more levels in Barbarian, giving him additional ten feet of movement.

[Zevox]

Why more then 60'? He has 20' movement allowance, double moving is 40'.
Because his level in Barbarian raises his land speed by 10', so he actually has 30' movement now, so double moving is 60'.

Zevox

[Hydro Globus]

Yeah, right. Forgot that thing.

But then my input: it's highly unlikely that Belkar would have +5 Jump from feats, and it is highly likely that Belkar has a lot of STR.

But you also miscalculated: 20+2+20+15+2 = 59. He needs only 6 more (so minimum STR = 12)

EDIT: (also: if he did get the running start, then that's 40 feet again (he ran at least 20). If he didn't, that's DC 130, that would imply an STR of... 142, right?)

[Wrecan]

I agree with Sstoopidtallkid. This is excellent geekery evidence of a 14+ Str from Belkar!

[Kyroswolf]

Based on the latest comic (616), I submit that Belkar has the Quick Draw feat. He would need it to be able to drop his shield, draw his second dagger, and still full attack Crystal in a single round.

[Wrecan]

We don't know it was one round.

It appears that frame 1 is part of one round. Belkar drops shield and five-foot step away. Presumably, his standard action had just occurred.

Frame 2 is the new round. Belkar full attacks with six slashes, which may have included disarm and trip attempts.

Given that Crystal did not get an AoO during the trip and disarm attempts, I guess I have to agree with those who said Belkar has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. But it's galling to think Belkar has Int 13.

If he has Improved Trip, he would immediately get an attack against the tripped opponent, which explains the blow that took Crystal down to 0 hp.

[Hydro Globus]

Belcar can have 13 Int, as long as he has little to no WIS. He is "smart in his own brain-damaged way".

[Nightmarenny]

We don't know it was one round.

It appears that frame 1 is part of one round. Belkar drops shield and five-foot step away. Presumably, his standard action had just occurred.

Frame 2 is the new round. Belkar full attacks with six slashes, which may have included disarm and trip attempts.

Given that Crystal did not get an AoO during the trip and disarm attempts, I guess I have to agree with those who said Belkar has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. But it's galling to think Belkar has Int 13.

If he has Improved Trip, he would immediately get an attack against the tripped opponent, which explains the blow that took Crystal down to 0 hp.Belkar has always been depicted as smart but very unwise. I point you to the Miko. which ended up being a good plan that missed the difficulty of getting the items needed. Thats a lack of wis for sure.

[Illven]

Wrecan Belker has 12 feats you have listed him at ten. Plus with the number of non bonus feats Belker is at least 18th level

[Kurald Galain]

Belkar has always been depicted as smart but very unwise. I point you to the Miko. which ended up being a good plan that missed the difficulty of getting the items needed. Thats a lack of wis for sure.
He's also regularly forgetting how his own class functions work. That's a lack of int for sure.

[Nightmarenny]

He's also regularly forgetting how his own class functions work. That's a lack of int for sure.

No that would be a lack of wisdom.

[Mc. Lovin']

I've always thought that wis = memory.

Certainly, personality scores are debatable, however we have proof that he has 13 int.

[Kurald Galain]

I've always thought that wis = memory.
No, int = memory, because classes who memorize spells use intelligence. "Willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition" has nothing to do with memory, either, whereas "learning" does.

[Simanos]

Is that Hydra incident the basis for Improved Sunder?
That's really weak evidence. At first I thought you meant the time he sundered Elan's rapier, but that would have been even weaker.
I think Belkar has Quick Draw for sure. He is using thrown weapons a lot too so he needs it. This throwing the shield and drawing a dagger and attacking panel is way more evidence of it than the Hydra was of Improved Sunder.
Also Improved Trip seems more probable than Improved Disarm. He might have both, but only Improved Trip is kinda necessary from the panels.

[Kish]

No, int = memory, because classes who memorize spells use intelligence.
No one memorizes spells in 3.X D&D. Rather, some classes prepare them.

[Kurald Galain]

No one memorizes spells in 3.X D&D.
Sure they do. Wizards memorize spells, clerics pray for spells, and the gametechnical process for both happens to be identical and is mechanically called "preparing" (because that's what the player does). Don't neglect your fluff, it's important in a comic!

[bdh5533]

Feat list

Feats (5): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (probably a gag not counted for min level), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce, Quick Draw (minimum level 9, 12 if you count craft disturbing mental image)

Ranger Feats(9): Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Evasion, Swift Tracker, Woodland stride, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting, Wild Empathy, Track

Barbarian Feats(2) Rage, Fast movement



Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm

this would put him at 8 non-ranger/non-barbarian class feats, 7 if you don't count craft disturbing mental image, which means he's at least level 18 (21 if you count the craft disturbing mental image). as Illven said above.

however




http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm

Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.



Maybe Crystal is just to stupid to take those AoO. point is she doesn't HAVE to take an AoO so it's not absolute proof he needs those feats. Still seems pretty reasonable for a person to take any AoO they get.

[Kish]

Sure they do. Wizards memorize spells, clerics pray for spells,

No, really, you're speaking 2ed. Clerics pray or meditate for spells, but there is no indication anywhere in the 3.0 or 3.5ed Player's Handbook that a wizard's preparation process hinges on or involves memorizing. (In fact, in 3ed, preparing a spell involves--and hinges on--actually casting most of the spell, so that you only need to complete the spell to trigger it later.)

[Kreistor]

He needs it to get Imp. Sunder.The hydra would have gotten 20+ Attacks of Opportunity on him if he didn't have it. Yes, it's an odd feat, and needs a useless one for him to get it, but there is proof he has it.

Point of rules. A single act only provokes one AoO from a single creature. Despite having multiple heads, the hydra is a single creature, so it gets one AoO for one Sunder attempt, not one from each head. Having two heads that can attack is no different from having two weapons to attack with. An AoO does not provoke an attack from both weapons, so it only provokes one attack from a single head.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Point of rules. A single act only provokes one AoO from a single creature. Despite having multiple heads, the hydra is a single creature, so it gets one AoO for one Sunder attempt, not one from each head. Having two heads that can attack is no different from having two weapons to attack with. An AoO does not provoke an attack from both weapons, so it only provokes one attack from a single head.
Feats

A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. There are 2 ways of reading that, but I think it implies mine, as if it was your way it would have been phrased "A Hydra may make one attack of opportunity a round for each head it possesses."

[Hydro Globus]

You can't make 2 AoOs to the same creature. Not even with Combat Reflexes.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You can't make 2 AoOs to the same creature. Not even with Combat Reflexes.But Hydra's "Combat Reflexes" /= "Combat Reflexes".

[bdh5533]

It can be confusing especially if you remember strip 48 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html)

From reading that, if that happened in the same round, yikyik wouldn't have been able to make that second AoO, true.

BUT

also keep in mind that you can't make a second AoO on the same creature only if that creature provokes because of movement out of a threatened square more than twice. any actions that provoke will still trigger AoO.

i.e. moving 10 ft away from a creature with reach and combat reflexes only triggers one AoO. Performing two actions that provoke, like standing up from prone and casting a spell on the offensive in one round, for example, both provoke attacks of opportunity that a character with combat reflexes could exploit.

also since i'm not possessed of an incredible memory it could well be combat reflexes and AoO rules have changed since the ogre with a spiked chain and the yikyik comic came out :)

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#combatReflexes)



Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

[baerdith]

No, int = memory, because classes who memorize spells use intelligence. "Willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition" has nothing to do with memory, either, whereas "learning" does.


Right there you got it. What shows lack of common sense and perception better than forgetting your own class features. I mean a ranger not having survival? That is a BIG lack of common sense.

But he can formulate plans that work at least as good as those of Nale and Roy...
And remember, he was a taco to the Squid thinggy. Tacos are filling but spicy....


The feats are troubling, as the number indicates Belkar is at least 18th level, which is sheer madness...

[Kreistor]

There are 2 ways of reading that, but I think it implies mine, as if it was your way it would have been phrased "A Hydra may make one attack of opportunity a round for each head it possesses."

No, that is there because a head can be chopped off. If only one head could make AoO's, you coould lop that one off and it could no longer make any AoO's at all. This quote tells you that the AoO is tied to the creature, not the heads.

And as another poster points out, the extra number of AoO's from CR is = Dex Bonus, not number of heads. Since hydras have a Dex of 12 (Bonus of +1), they get 2 AoO's per round.

[Underground]

It can be confusing especially if you remember strip 48 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html)

From reading that, if that happened in the same round, yikyik wouldn't have been able to make that second AoO, true. Err, Yikyik didnt make any AoO there. He simply attacked whenever Belkar turned his back. And even if it would be AoOs, not just attacks, what gives you the idea that it happened in one and the same round ?!?

[Wrecan]

Belkar clearly has too mny feats for his level. I don't think he's 18th. If he were, he would have gotten more swings in his full attack.

[Kurald Galain]

Right there you got it. What shows lack of common sense and perception better than forgetting your own class features.
Neither common sense nor perception has anything to do with remembering your own abilities. Perception is, you know, eyesight and such; common sense is about judgment, not ability.


And remember, he was a taco to the Squid thinggy. Tacos are filling but spicy....
Tacos are not known for their intelligence :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

Belkar clearly has too mny feats for his level. I don't think he's 18th. If he were, he would have gotten more swings in his full attack.
Simplest explanation: CDMI is not a feat, Belkar was being sarcastic there.

Also, Belkar isn't disarming Crystal in 616; she's dropping the weapon as a result of falling prone (which isn't in the rules but makes a lot of sense from a story perspective). Otherwise, we would have seen an unsound effect, "disarm", like here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html).

Also also, Belkar has sufficient strength and BAB to not need a feat to be able to trip dex-based mediocre-BAB Crystal. Crystal either missed on her AOO, or (like Belkar) is dumb enough to forget she could do that.

[Amon Star]

I agree with Sstoopidtallkid. This is excellent geekery evidence of a 14+ Str from Belkar!

I agree. Mainly because :belkar: is a skilled melee opponent so needs a high strength score.
We don't know it was one round.

It appears that frame 1 is part of one round. Belkar drops shield and five-foot step away. Presumably, his standard action had just occurred.

Frame 2 is the new round. Belkar full attacks with six slashes, which may have included disarm and trip attempts.

Given that Crystal did not get an AoO during the trip and disarm attempts, I guess I have to agree with those who said Belkar has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. But it's galling to think Belkar has Int 13.

If he has Improved Trip, he would immediately get an attack against the tripped opponent, which explains the blow that took Crystal down to 0 hp.

Regarding the Improved Trip/Sunder/Whatever discussion, I heard that in one of the Dragons the Shoeless One doesn't bother with those Feats. Could anyone confirm this?

[Kurald Galain]

Frame 2 is the new round. Belkar full attacks with six slashes, which may have included disarm and trip attempts.
Then, Frame 3 and 4 could be the next round, in which he gets plenty of attacks to stab Crystal to zero hp. Belky doesn't need a feat to kick (or stab) people whenthey're down.



Given that Crystal did not get an AoO during the trip and disarm attempts, I guess I have to agree with those who said Belkar has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm.
I'll bet that searching through the comics would show us literally dozens of examples of AOOs which are either not taken or not shown. E.g. Haley using her bow in melee-range.

For instance, just recently, Belkar picked up the shield from the floor. Picking up an item normally provokes an attack of opportunity. So it follows that either Belkar has the feat: Improved Pick Up (hm, would that work on chicks? :smalltongue: ), or that AOOs are often not shown in the comic, just like not every single blow in every battle is always shown.

[Wrecan]

AOOs are often not shown in the comic, just like not every single blow in every battle is always shown.

Okay. You convinced me. No Combat Expertise feats for Belkar until he admits to possessing them.

[Oslecamo]

I agree that many times people simply forget about Aoos

[TerrickTerran]

That was so true when we used to play. Huh, AoO? Oh yeah, I get those don't I was the common response.

[Hydro Globus]

Okay. You convinced me. No Combat Expertise feats for Belkar until he admits to possessing them.

Noo!

He probably doesn't have IDisarm but has ITrip. Giant, please! :)

[Illven]

Wrecan Belker has oly nine feats listed you have put him at ten

Edit Sorry I didn't realize that the number you put down is the normal amount of feats a character of that level would have

[Mc. Lovin']

No, int = memory, because classes who memorize spells use intelligence. "Willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition" has nothing to do with memory, either, whereas "learning" does.

Oh right, fair enough then. I can only explain it away with not having the wisdom to use his class abilities, to see the benefit or just wanting to have fights that are more of a challenge. But those arguments are all paper thin :smallsmile:

However I will once again argue, why abandon geekery for "mental" scores? We shouldn't base them on personal opinion, much as we don't any other part of the character sheet.

[baerdith]

Belkar's feat number is troubling, however 616 almost definately shows Improved Trip, which means Combat Expertise.


If you pass CDMI off as a joke, then Belkar's 5 non-Ranger Feats are:
Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip.


Also also, Belkar has sufficient strength and BAB to not need a feat to be able to trip dex-based mediocre-BAB Crystal.

But its the immediate attack after the trip that points to ImpTrip.

[Simanos]

Underground, if Yikyik simply attacked whenever Belkar turned his back he would not have said "Combat Reflexes, ass-wipe." would he? That makes it one round.

On the Hydra front I have to say I had to read it again:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm
It says:
Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)
Full Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)
So it can take a move action and attack 5 times. It can even and I quote:
"Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. "
So I'm pretty sure they can AoO twice in a round (given 2 opportunities) each time with all 5 heads. It's like each head has a mind of its own :p
Kinda like Ettins maybe. But much better.
Personally I find it ugly (nearly illogical) that a Hydra can charge and do full attack, but those are the rules.
I have checked the AD&D (2nd) Hydra and it is radically different (only one type, Lernaean Hydra regenerated heads) than in 3.5 edition. How is the Hydra in 3.0, does anyone know?

However it does say that "An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him" and I think it means with out provoking an AoO so that could explain what Belkar did. Also it was not a normal Hydra as we see by the end result (its death) so its abilities were probably house ruled anyway.
A last point is that "Each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump in 1d4 rounds." This has nothing to do with the body hitpoints. It simply has fast healing and heals 15+ hitpoints every round. Killing a head causes damage (half hitpoints of head) to the body and if you kill enough heads fast enough the creature would die. I don't know, does Fast Healing work after death (-10?) like regeneration does? I think not. So Hydra with 5 heads means 55 hitpoints, 11 per head. The body loses 5.5 (ok 5) hitpoints each time a head dies. Fast healing 15 is equaled by killing 3 heads a round. You need to kill 11 more to make it die. So 11+3x(total rounds fought) heads killed means a dead Hydra, even one with no upper limit on heads spawned (usually upper limit is twice the number of starting heads). Also remember no stats change for the Hydra if it grows more heads (BAB, AC, etc) and actually "any extra heads it gains beyond its original number wither and die within a day".

But I prefer the house-ruled Hydra explanation to all that. :smallcool:
No need for Improved Sunder.

[Kurald Galain]

However I will once again argue, why abandon geekery for "mental" scores? We shouldn't base them on personal opinion, much as we don't any other part of the character sheet.
I don't think anybody really wants to abandon geekery for mental scores. But from that point of view, Vaarsuvius, who is in a position to know, classifies Belkar as having a very low "proto-brain"; even Roy calls him brain-damaged. Both of that contradict him having a high int (and yes, 13 int is high, if not stellar).


But its the immediate attack after the trip that points to ImpTrip.
Or to the next panel being the next round, as happens frequently in the comic.

[Kurald Galain]

Ah.

Based on 617, who else thinks that Celia has ranks in Intimidate? :smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

Nah, just a High Charisma and a circumstance bonus.

[Amon Star]

On the Hydra front I have to say I had to read it again:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm
It says:
Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)
Full Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)
So it can take a move action and attack 5 times. It can even and I quote:
"Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. "
So I'm pretty sure they can AoO twice in a round (given 2 opportunities) each time with all 5 heads. It's like each head has a mind of its own :p
Kinda like Ettins maybe. But much better.
Personally I find it ugly (nearly illogical) that a Hydra can charge and do full attack, but those are the rules.
I have checked the AD&D (2nd) Hydra and it is radically different (only one type, Lernaean Hydra regenerated heads) than in 3.5 edition. How is the Hydra in 3.0, does anyone know?

Lernaean Hydras were still a separate subspecies in 3, but apart from that they were similar to 3.5.

[lord_khaine]

Also also, Belkar has sufficient strength and BAB to not need a feat to be able to trip dex-based mediocre-BAB Crystal. Crystal either missed on her AOO, or (like Belkar) is dumb enough to forget she could do that.

i think you are confusing some rules here, trip is just opposed str, and with a size penalty of -4 Crystal would need a str penalty for belkar to have a even a 50/50 chance of succeding on his trip attack.

still, it could be that he just got lucky.

[Wrecan]

Heck, once Belkar realized Crystal didn't understand tripping rules at all (Bozzok probably had to explain Sunder rules to her) he could have been trying to trip her every attack! If she wasn't taking AoOs, she wasn't trying to trip him back as a free action when he failed to trip her, there'd be no reason to try it every round!

[Illven]

Due to the events of 398 we can surmise that Sabine has no more than nine levels of Rogue or Haley wouldn't have been able to flank Sabine

[Zevox]

Due to the events of 398 we can surmise that Sabine has no more than nine levels of Rogue or Haley wouldn't have been able to flank Sabine
Since when did anyone think Sabine had any levels of Rogue at all? She's never displayed any traits of the class. Most likely she just has racial hit die.

Zevox

[Illven]

Since when did anyone think Sabine had any levels of Rogue at all? She's never displayed any traits of the class. Most likely she just has racial hit die.

Zevox

Chrismith has her listed as having 1+ Rogue levels apparently the commenatry on no cure for the paladin blues said she had rogue levels

[Enlong]

Yeah, No Cure calls her a "Fiendish Rogue" in her profile.

[Illven]

Does anybody know if Chirsmith is still keeping track of Team Evil and the Linear guild statistics?

[Illven]

Haley's strength is most likely more than 11 because she need to carry Belker in comic 470 and he is about 30 pounds at least two daggers 2 pounds, her leather armor 15 pounds her long bow 3 pounds and a bag of holding 15 pounds

30+2+15+3+15=65 pounds Which needs a strength of 15 at least to carry at a light load. Does anybody know how much Roy weighs

[Keldon]

Hey guys. We know what's the minimum Caster Level for Xykon (21, since he's an epic level Sorcerer). But i found a way to determine his maximum caster level. I don't know if this was pointed before, but here it goes.

On #429, Durkon succeeds a Caster Level check in order to dispel Xykon's Greater Invisibility. His max roll would be 20 plus 13 (Caster level), which equals 33. It means that the maximum DC to dispell a spell cast by Xykon is probably 33. So, his caster level is either 21 (Minimum level to be considered Epic) or 22 (Maximum Caster Level that Durkon would be able to beat by using Greater Dispel magic).

Neither Durkon nor Xykon seem to have PRCs or Magic Items that increase CL, so this is probably acurrate.

I'm also considering Durkon's level at the time of that siege. If i made a mistake on that, we can simply do the math again. :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

Not rock solid since either or both could easily have items or feats that change the figures.

However, we have Xykon guessing he is 7/8/more levels above Roy [presumably 13th] and so we get an answer there too in the low 20s.

[Simanos]

i think you are confusing some rules here, trip is just opposed str, and with a size penalty of -4 Crystal would need a str penalty for belkar to have a even a 50/50 chance of succeding on his trip attack.

still, it could be that he just got lucky.
Actually:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

[silvadel]

Redcloak almost never seems to fizzle from riding even running on a wheel like in start of darkness 91/92. Actually he doesnt even seem to stop when casting a spell. Only time I remember a fizzle was in 462.

I was thinking this meant he had a very high concentration but I almost wonder if he has some kind of feat that enables him to cast during movement actions as well.

[RMS Oceanic]

I guess that confirms what type of sword Bozzak was wielding. :smallsmile:

[Simanos]

Also it looks like Haley has Greater Manyshot
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot
Does she have a feat to avoid Attacks of Opportunity when firing her bow in melee?

[RMS Oceanic]

That's not Greater Manyshot. There are two sound effects in that panel (fft! fft!), indicating the bow was shot twice.

[Hurkyl]

Should Haley have a higher charisma, given her success at ridiculous bluffs? 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) and 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html)

[Kurald Galain]

Should Haley have a higher charisma, given her success at ridiculous bluffs? 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) and 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html)

I'm not convinced #8 is a bluff, considering neither Elan nor Belkar are actually falling for it. Just a bunch of RP'ing to manipulate Belkar to STFU, IMHO.

[RMS Oceanic]

Also, Roy has no ranks in Sense Motive, while Haleyt has maxxed ranks in bluff, so the second scenario isn't entirely implausible.

[lord_khaine]

Actually:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...tacks.htm#trip
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

Silmanos, thats more or less what i have allready written.....

[Kaytara]

Just out of curiosity.... How do we know V has the Maximized Spell feat???

[Kurald Galain]

Just out of curiosity.... How do we know V has the Maximized Spell feat???

Xe mentions it in one of the Dragon Magazine comics.

[Fjolnir]

according to belkar, they aren't even sure that's the same continuity though

[Simanos]

That's not Greater Manyshot. There are two sound effects in that panel (fft! fft!), indicating the bow was shot twice.
In panels 1 and 2 of 618 Haley has 2 arrows knocked and drawn. In panel 3 she fires them both (manyshot) and it makes 2 fft noises. Same as in panel 7. So what's your point?
I admit it could be 2 single arrow attacks, but the first dead body doesn't even hit the ground before the next. Still it could be very fast.


Silmanos, thats more or less what i have allready written.....
No you said trip was just opposed str (check), but it also needs an unarmed melee touch first. And also the defender can use DEX instead of STR too.

[Eloel]

In panels 1 and 2 of 618 Haley has 2 arrows knocked and drawn. In panel 3 she fires them both (manyshot) and it makes 2 fft noises. Same as in panel 7. So what's your point?
I admit it could be 2 single arrow attacks, but the first dead body doesn't even hit the ground before the next. Still it could be very fast.

1 round is 6 seconds anyway, how SLOW can it be?

[Simanos]

1 round is 6 seconds anyway, how SLOW can it be?
It's even more crazy though. 1 round is 6 seconds, but a player turn should be 6 seconds divided by number of fight participants. I prefered the old 1 round is about a minute rule and the more real time feel (DM narration) instead of turn based feel nowadays (rules rules rules)...
For example iterative attacks were different. If 2 warriors were fighting with 2 attacks per round (level 13+ or something) the one who won initiative would make his one attack first (not both), then the other would make one of his attacks and then the first guy would make his 2nd attack and so on.

[lord_khaine]

No you said trip was just opposed str (check), but it also needs an unarmed melee touch first. And also the defender can use DEX instead of STR too.

yes, and that was in answer to someone who got bab mixed up with it, and that is more or less what a trip is, but i did not say you did not have to hit with it first.
also, using dex instead of str is a special option for the defender, that still doesnt hold any real relevance to how hard is allready was for belkar to trip someone bigger than himself without improved trip.

[Simanos]

yes, and that was in answer to someone who got bab mixed up with it, and that is more or less what a trip is, but i did not say you did not have to hit with it first.
also, using dex instead of str is a special option for the defender, that still doesnt hold any real relevance to how hard is allready was for belkar to trip someone bigger than himself without improved trip.
Look the Trip attempt INCLUDES a melee touch attack (roll) so the BAB of Belkar does matter (he has to hit first).
And also you compared Belkar's and Crystal's STR when I'm pretty sure her DEX is better so it should be STR (-4 size) check vs DEX check.
That is all.

[lord_khaine]

Look the Trip attempt INCLUDES a melee touch attack (roll) so the BAB of Belkar does matter (he has to hit first).
And also you compared Belkar's and Crystal's STR when I'm pretty sure her DEX is better so it should be STR (-4 size) check vs DEX check.
That is all.

as you have allready mentioned, its a TOUCH attack, that means that even with a wizard BAB Belkar would proberly hit.

and you are "pretty sure"?
we dont really have any kind of evidence for what kind of stats Crystal has, other than her being pretty stupid, so i might as well keep comparing STR vs STR.

[Amon Star]

according to belkar, they aren't even sure that's the same continuity though

Yet :belkar: demonstrated Gourmet Cheff not soon after, so it's probably safe to assume that the Dragon strips are cannon.

[Simanos]

as you have allready mentioned, its a TOUCH attack, that means that even with a wizard BAB Belkar would proberly hit.

and you are "pretty sure"?
we dont really have any kind of evidence for what kind of stats Crystal has, other than her being pretty stupid, so i might as well keep comparing STR vs STR.
You said:
"trip is just opposed str, and with a size penalty of -4 Crystal would need a str penalty for belkar to have a even a 50/50 chance of succeding on his trip attack."
Even if Crystal had a STR penalty she would use her DEX in resisting (only) the trip attempt so you are wrong and I am right.
Nyah nyah nyah ...

PS: Come on man, admit it, you just want to have last word...

[RMS Oceanic]

Not rock solid since either or both could easily have items or feats that change the figures.

"Could" being the magic word. Until such a feat/item/whatever appears, we assume they don't have them. Hence we can peg Xykon as having a maximum caster level of 22 for Greater Invisibility.

[Illven]

Wouldn't Xykon have superior invisability since Greater Invisability only has a duration of one round per level and the Order would have seen a zombie dragon that was slightly more than two minutes away

[Twilight Jack]

Wouldn't Xykon have superior invisability since Greater Invisability only has a duration of one round per level and the Order would have seen a zombie dragon that was slightly more than two minutes away

That indeed seems somewhat likely, although you can always recast a spell before it has expired in order to refresh its duration. As a sorcerer, Xykon may well not have had anything better to do with his 4th level spell slots that day.

On the other hand, superior invisibility would simplify the equation a great deal.

[Nerdanel]

Wouldn't Xykon have superior invisability since Greater Invisability only has a duration of one round per level and the Order would have seen a zombie dragon that was slightly more than two minutes away

I think this sequence works:

1. Cast regular Invisibility.
2. Get within striking distance.
3. Cast a spell, which shuts down Invisibility.
4. The cast spell is Greater Invisibility, so immediately invisible again.

As the second invisiblity spell comes into effect when the first ends, there doesn't even need to be a gap where Xykon is visible.

[Twilight Jack]

I think this sequence works:

1. Cast regular Invisibility.
2. Get within striking distance.
3. Cast a spell, which shuts down Invisibility.
4. The cast spell is Greater Invisibility, so immediately invisible again.

As the second invisiblity spell comes into effect when the first ends, there doesn't even need to be a gap where Xykon is visible.

Yes, but at that point you'd need to consider the very limited spell knowledge available to sorcerers. Most of the time, it's a waste for a sorcerer to have more than one spell for any given specific purpose. If he has greater invisibility, then keeping a 2nd level spell known for the regular version begins to wade into dimimishing returns.

So the question becomes: is a sorcerer like Xykon willing to sink an extra one of his known spells into a spell combo that we've only "seen" him use once? Especially when neither spell directly kills or harms anyone?

[Illven]

But unless Xykon has the silent spell feat wouldn't some of the Order members hear Xykon use greater invisability if he got too close plus even if xykon did have the silent spell feat at this point he only has about 8 5th level spell slots

[Nerdanel]

Xykon has enough common sense to have more than pure blasting spells. He also has demonstrated utility spells like Ghostform, Teleport, and some kind of scrying spell, not to go to additional SoD evidence.

Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are deep down spells in very different tactical slots. Invisibility with its breaking if the character tries to fight back is for avoiding combat. Greater Invisibility with its tiny duration is for avoiding being hit while in combat. If Xykon needed invisibility in order to escape his enemies, it would be much better for him to cast just plain Invisibility than several Greater Invisibilities in succession, all of which would use up higher-level spell slots to boot.

The problem of the vocal component can be negated just by moving the striking distance far enough away so that nobody on the battlements hears anything when Invisibility is replaced by Greater Invisibility.

Also, it is possible that Xykon cast Greater Invisibility after Sangwaan discovered him, but the speech bubble was off-panel/between panels.

[Twilight Jack]

Alternately, Xykon just replaced both with superior invisibility when trading out old spells for new. One spell that does the job of both.

[silvadel]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html

In the second to last panel, the monster in the dark reveals its gender. It is male.

[Nerdanel]

Alternately, Xykon just replaced both with superior invisibility when trading out old spells for new. One spell that does the job of both.

The thing is, Superior Invisibility is level 8 while Invisiblity is level 2 and Greater Invisibility is level 4. The question is whether Xykon would think it more valuable to have versatile invisibility powers and extra 2nd and 4th level unrelated spells known, or have versatile invisibility powers and an extra 8th level unrelated spell known. Using lower level spells is also vastly more efficient spell slot wise. If Xykon just wants to walk around invisible, he could achieve that by using a spell slot worth a Flaming Sphere or Acid Arrow instead one worth an Incendiary Cloud or Polar Ray.

[Wrecan]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html

In the second to last panel, the monster in the dark reveals its gender. It is male.

Actually, it's just not a girl. It could be asexual, hermaphroditic or male.

[Simanos]

Actually, it's just not a girl. It could be asexual, hermaphroditic or male.
I think you're reaching here mate. It's a stupid childish monster, if it was asexual or hermaphroditic it wouldn't be opposed that much about girls in a club, it would probably not recognize the difference in sexes.
It's odd that it plays "tea-party" and other girly stuff, but it sort of reminds me of Eric Cartman from Southpark.
It puts the lotion in the basket :p

[Wrecan]

I think you're reaching here mate.

I was being humourous.

[Simanos]

I was being humourous.
Use a smiley next time :smalltongue:
I have read much more ridiculous things than that and the poster meant them with great conviction. You hear that David? :smallredface:

[Illven]

This latest comic gives a sigfanct chance for Ceila having a buff spell of some kind since Belker asked for one

[Kurald Galain]

Why does Durkon's list of equipment contain the word "flask" in red letters?

[RMS Oceanic]

Because said flask is only seen in a print-only bonus strip.

[Kish]

This latest comic gives a sigfanct chance for Ceila having a buff spell of some kind since Belker asked for one
How would Belkar know which spells Celia knows, beyond the few he's seen her cast?

[supermrjmt]

It says Vaarsuvius has Vampiric Touch as well as a barred school of necromancy.

[Amon Star]

It says Vaarsuvius has Vampiric Touch as well as a barred school of necromancy.

That's because :vaarsuvius: offered Vampiric Touch here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) to Drizz't, in exchange for his 3rd ed Flight. To two main theories for this discrepancy are; 1) Back in Third Ed, if Invokers picked Conjuration as there barred school, then they didn't need another one, so Ears could have had a Necromancy spell, but then picked that school as his second barred school during the convert to 3.5; and 2) V-Man lied.

[RMS Oceanic]

The technically correct answer to this issue is that Rich hadn't sorted out his character's stats yet, and that was a minor slip up. Another alternative is the switchover from 3.0 to 3.5. If an Evoker barred only conjuration, that was all they needed to bar. When the rules were revised, V chose Necromancy as h** second barred school, and "forgot" to remove Vampiric Touch from h** book.

[badgerigar]

It says Vaarsuvius has Vampiric Touch as well as a barred school of necromancy.

V could have found the spell in a randomised booster pack. Although he could not cast it he could still offer it for trade.

[Mc. Lovin']

V could have found the spell in a randomised booster pack. Although he could not cast it he could still offer it for trade.

That's actually a great idea ...

[SinsI]

The technically correct answer to this issue is that Rich hadn't sorted out his character's stats yet, and that was a minor slip up. Another alternative is the switchover from 3.0 to 3.5. If an Evoker barred only conjuration, that was all they needed to bar. When the rules were revised, V chose Necromancy as h** second barred school, and "forgot" to remove Vampiric Touch from h** book.

I think the correct answer is that V only has one barred school - he says that he choose Transmutation "as my barred school", not "as one of my barred schools".

And http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html doesn't indicate that Belkar has Improved Sunder - it was explicitly stated that the Hydra was house-ruled.

[Zevox]

I think the correct answer is that V only has one barred school - he says that he choose Transmutation "as my barred school", not "as one of my barred schools".
Conjuration, actually, not Transmutation. And by 3.5e rules anyone who specializes in a school other than Divination has to bar two other schools. V is an Evoker, thus has to have two barred schools. We know Conjuration because she said it outright, and Necromancy is the only other school we've never seen her use - the only indication she has it is the Vampiric Touch comment.

Zevox

[SinsI]

Conjuration, actually, not Transmutation. And by 3.5e rules anyone who specializes in a school other than Divination has to bar two other schools. V is an Evoker, thus has to have two barred schools. We know Conjuration because she said it outright, and Necromancy is the only other school we've never seen her use - the only indication she has it is the Vampiric Touch comment.

Zevox
Oh, yes, my mistake with Conjuration.
We also know that V choose to specialize 3 years ago before he was upgraded to 3.5e, and that Giant often house-rules in earlier monsters, spells and abilities.
In 3rd edition, it was enough for Evoker to choose only Conjuration.

[Wrecan]

And http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html doesn't indicate that Belkar has Improved Sunder - it was explicitly stated that the Hydra was house-ruled.

If the house rule included that fact that Belkar asn't provoking multiple AoOs, Roy would have realized it was a house-ruled hydra before it passed it's maximum number of heads. Since Roy didn't realize it was house-ruled until after that point, he wasn't made suspicious by the lack of AoO, which only makes sense if Belkar has Improved Sunder.

[Illven]

How would Belkar know which spells Celia knows, beyond the few he's seen her cast?

Belker knew how many 5th level spells Durkon could cast at the trial, and I doubt that came up during a consveration.

[Zevox]

Oh, yes, my mistake with Conjuration.
We also know that V choose to specialize 3 years ago before he was upgraded to 3.5e, and that Giant often house-rules in earlier monsters, spells and abilities.
In 3rd edition, it was enough for Evoker to choose only Conjuration.
We also know the entire Order was updated to 3.5e in the first comic, and that the comic as a whole operates on 3.5e rules. For a thread like this, that means that the default assumption is that the characters will follow 3.5e rules. Unless V is explicitly stated to be so in the comic, we can't assume she is exempt the normal rule of 2 barred schools.

Zevox

[SinsI]

We also know the entire Order was updated to 3.5e in the first comic, and that the comic as a whole operates on 3.5e rules. For a thread like this, that means that the default assumption is that the characters will follow 3.5e rules. Unless V is explicitly stated to be so in the comic, we can't assume she is exempt the normal rule of 2 barred schools.

Zevox
...And it was explicitly stated that V has spells from all schools except Conjuration.
Forcing additional barred schools onto existing characters is near impossible for any DM, it is easier to start the whole adventure anew - so V only has one forbidden school.

Can we please not assume anything at all, and just look at the facts?
V was generated with 3e rules; Giant explicitly showed everything that changed during the party upgrade - and V wasn't cussing and trying to choose which school he suddenly can't cast.

[Kish]

Belker knew how many 5th level spells Durkon could cast at the trial, and I doubt that came up during a consveration.
There is a huge difference between knowing how many spells any cleric of the same level as Belkar can cast and knowing the specific spell choices of a sorcerer. That's without getting into the difference in relationship (Durkon, whether he likes it or not, is a member of the same adventuring party as Belkar and knows it, whereas Celia isn't an adventurer, is a strictly temporary traveling companion, and has always treated Belkar with open contempt and loathing, including making it clear she wants him gone).

[Zevox]

...And it was explicitly stated that V has spells from all schools except Conjuration.
No, it wasn't. You're implying this from V's use of the singular in her comment about barring Conjuration. We've never seen V use a spell from Necromancy, and the only indication that she has it is a very old comic, likely from before the Giant had fully decided on any of the characters' abilities, where she indicates she has Vampiric Touch in her spellbook. It seems most logical that her second barred school, therefor, is Necromancy.


Forcing additional barred schools onto existing characters is near impossible for any DM, it is easier to start the whole adventure anew
Then it's a good thing that there is no DM in OotS, and that rather than actually playing a game of D&D they instead exist in a world that operates using D&D rules in the same manner as the laws of physics, huh?


It is far safer to assume that everything that applies to character creation stayed the same after the switch, only their items were upgraded.
Patently false. Elan got extra skill points retroactively, remember? Items were not the only thing affected by the switch. It would be pretty ridiculous for that to be the case, actually, considering the many rule differences between 3.0 and 3.5, such as entire skills being removed or changed.

Zevox

[Illven]

There is a huge difference between knowing how many spells any cleric of the same level as Belkar can cast and knowing the specific spell choices of a sorcerer. That's without getting into the difference in relationship (Durkon, whether he likes it or not, is a member of the same adventuring party as Belkar and knows it, whereas Celia isn't an adventurer, is a strictly temporary traveling companion, and has always treated Belkar with open contempt and loathing, including making it clear she wants him gone).

Belkar doesn't need to know every spell Ceila has to know she has a buff spell, also Durkon hasn't shown to care about Belkar much shown when he asked Roy if he thoughut Belkar would escape in the next ten minutes, and it can be argued that Ceila is a tempory member of the order when Roy aruged she was a frequent flyer

[SinsI]

Patently false. Elan got extra skill points retroactively, remember? Items were not the only thing affected by the switch. It would be pretty ridiculous for that to be the case, actually, considering the many rule differences between 3.0 and 3.5, such as entire skills being removed or changed.
My advice: don't take everything Elan says for the truth. :)
Giant mentioned that it was just his own stupid assumption.

[Zevox]

My advice: don't take everything Elan says for the truth. :)
Giant mentioned that it was just his own stupid assumption.
? :smallconfused:
"It" what?

Zevox

[Kish]

Belkar doesn't need to know every spell Ceila has to know she has a buff spell,
Belkar also doesn't need to actually know Celia has a buff spell to ask her to buff him, particularly when the line's part of a joke about MMORPG terminology. Wrecan's standards here are generally a lot more exacting than to add "a buff spell" to Celia's description based on that.

[SinsI]

? :smallconfused:
"It" what?
Here, let me make it simple for you:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493

[Mc. Lovin']

If the house rule included that fact that Belkar asn't provoking multiple AoOs, Roy would have realized it was a house-ruled hydra before it passed it's maximum number of heads. Since Roy didn't realize it was house-ruled until after that point, he wasn't made suspicious by the lack of AoO, which only makes sense if Belkar has Improved Sunder.

As a counter argument I just want to say that Roy has shown that he has trouble with the rules on AOOs (in OOTPCs he said that he needed to revise it more (or something)) and in the comics where he was fighting the broken half-ogre thing he needed help figuring out why it was attacking so much.

[Simanos]

As a counter argument I just want to say that Roy has shown that he has trouble with the rules on AOOs (in OOTPCs he said that he needed to revise it more (or something)) and in the comics where he was fighting the broken half-ogre thing he needed help figuring out why it was attacking so much.
I agree. Please remove Improved Sunder, there's no certainty about it.

Also Elan's stats read:
Haley's Int says "possible that he raised")
That was because Nale was disguised as Elan. It was a false judgment. Please remove.

[Yrogerg]

Never mind. I'm clearly illiterate.

[Wrecan]

I agree. Please remove Improved Sunder, there's no certainty about it.
Improved Sunder stays in based on the hydra attack. The only houseruling of which we know is that the hydra has no limit to heads. Until it is established the hydra also doesn't take AoO, it stays.

If we start assuming house rules that might exist, there is no certainty to anything, so house rules are limited to what is stated.


Also Elan's stats read:
Haley's Int says "possible that he raised")
That was because Nale was disguised as Elan. It was a false judgment. Please remove.
Yeah, that makes sense.

[Kroy]

In comic 216 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) the half ogre said "I needed to use five feats and be a half ogre to pull it off, but now I'm unbeatable!" What feats did he need and why did he need to be a half ogre?

[Zevox]

In comic 216 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) the half ogre said "I needed to use five feats and be a half ogre to pull it off, but now I'm unbeatable!" What feats did he need and why did he need to be a half ogre?
The feats:
- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain): To use the chain w/o penalties.
- Dodge: Prerequisite for next two feats.
- Mobility: Prerequisite for next feat.
- Spring Attack: For ability to move away and attack at the same time.
- Combat Reflexes: For multiple AoOs per round.

As for Half-Ogre, I'm not entirely sure, since I don't have whatever book that race is from, but I'd guess it is a low-LA way to be large size, giving him the reach he needs to pull off his tactic.

Zevox

[Kroy]

Thanks.:smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html - Durkon apparently has the Still Spell feat.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html - V knows at least one sonic energy spell, because he's suggesting to pause for eight hours to allow him to prepare it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html - Thog has an extremely low wisdom score, because otherwise he couldn't have an "abysmal" will saving throw, as V says.

By the way, why does Haley "probably" have knowledge: arcana? The OP says she does, but there's no link for it.

[Tempest Fennac]

V was probably just assuming Thog had awful will saves (s/he was probably right, but assuming Nale was right, Thog's Int would be his lowest stat).

[Zevox]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html - Durkon apparently has the Still Spell feat.
Alternatively, Thor's Lightning may simply not have a somatic casting component. It also seems as though, if he were using the Still Spell feat, he'd say "Still Thor's Lightning," given every other metamagic spell we've seen cast has had the matamagic name added to the spell name (see Xykon's Maximized Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), as well as V's Empowered Lightning Bolt and Quickened Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)).


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html - Thog has an extremely low wisdom score, because otherwise he couldn't have an "abysmal" will saving throw, as V says.
Possible, though in this instance V was likely just making an assumption based on Thog's classes (Fighter/Barbarians don't get much in the way of will save boosts) and obvious lack of any significant mental capabilities. Hell, given his classes alone, Thog would have an abysmal will save for his level even with a decent to good wisdom score of 12-14. (Assume they were level 9 or 10 at the time, Thog would only have +2 from his classes, so his will save would be a measly +3-4 total with such a wisdom score, which is pretty abysmal for that level.)

Zevox

[Kurald Galain]

(Assume they were level 9 or 10 at the time, Thog would only have +2 from his classes,
They were the same level as the OOTS.

But I think the problem here is that you're assuming that V (who nearly always knows what xe is talking about) doesn't in fact mean what he is saying - whereas the existence of this thread hinges on the assumption that yes, the characters in the comic mean what they're saying about each others' abilities.

[Zevox]

They were the same level as the OOTS.
Which at the time was 9 or 10, about where they started. This is a very early strip we're talking about.


But I think the problem here is that you're assuming that V (who nearly always knows what xe is talking about) doesn't in fact mean what he is saying - whereas the existence of this thread hinges on the assumption that yes, the characters in the comic mean what they're saying about each others' abilities.
What? I'm doing no such thing. V certainly knew what she talking about. Her statement simply does not require Thog to have that bad of a wisdom modifier. His classes alone assure him an abysmal will save unless he has a stupendous wisdom score and magical boosts to it (ala a strong Cloak of Resistance).

Zevox

[King of Nowhere]

I think you guys are forgetting too much the rule of cool and the rule of funny.
Belkar has improved sunder because the hydra didn't attacked of opportunity him, but the hydra never attacked in all the fight. So either V cast a still and silent hold monster, or the lack of ottacks of opportunity can't be taken as a proof in that fight.
For Haley's ranged sunder, her cutting the whip falls under the rule of cool. Her arrows have a cutting edge, and the whip was nonmagical, so it was perfectly reasonable. I don't see enough proof to assign a feat
Xykon is stated to have bluff because of strip 106, but he never explicitly stated it, and with his charisma he can easily succeed at a bluff against Roy, that has no sense motif.
I'm sure I can think of other if I put myself to the task.

[Wrecan]

I think you guys are forgetting too much the rule of cool and the rule of funny.
The whole point of this thread is to use the rules of cool and funny only as a last resort. That's what makes this thread so cool. And funny! :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

Julia Greenhilt has a stated CHA of about 10 (no evidence). Shouldn't we take the fact that she's the most popular girl in the school as a proof that she's got high CHA?

I think it was accepted somwhere along this thread that azurites got katana proficiency as a martial weapon proficiency, and not exotic, and they got the longsword as an exotic weapon. In fact proficiency (katana) isn't stated in Hinjo and O-Chul.
Shouldn't you remove proficiency (katana) from Miko, then? Or, otherwise, put in proficiency (wakizashi)

[Rotipher]

Julia Greenhilt has a stated CHA of about 10 (no evidence). Shouldn't we take the fact that she's the most popular girl in the school as a proof that she's got high CHA?

She might have taken some Diplomacy ranks instead. Also, "most popular" is relative; other students could've used Charisma as a dump stat.

[Kish]

There are sorcerers in that school. Julia is unlikely to have the highest Charisma there, unless her build would make min-maxers despair.

[Kurald Galain]

There are sorcerers in that school. Julia is unlikely to have the highest Charisma there,

Not the highest, but surely greater than ten.

[Simanos]

The whole point of this thread is to use the rules of cool and funny only as a last resort. That's what makes this thread so cool. And funny! :smallbiggrin:
How do you explain that the Hydra didn't attack at all? There were no AoO, so what? There were no attacks shown at all.
Frankly, I don't really mind Belkar having improved sunder because he did sunder Elan's rapier and it's funny. Given his daggers though power attack pre-reqs are damn wasteful :smalleek:

[Wrecan]

How do you explain that the Hydra didn't attack at all?
The hydra battle occurred off-screen. How do we know the hydra didn't attack?

[Simanos]

The hydra battle occurred off-screen. How do we know the hydra didn't attack?
Then the Hydra AoO occurred off-screen too.

[Wrecan]

No. It didn't.

In Comic 325, frame 7, Belkar assaults the hydra on-screen. No AoO. Now, that could have been because he attacked with surprise.

But then in final frame, Belkar attacks again. We hear his "schlurkt", but no "whiff" or "bite" in reaction. The AoO would have occurred just before the "schlurkt". It wasn't there.

In comic 326, we come to the end of the battle. Belkar attacks with full attacks in frame two and frame three. But there are no attacks from the hydra. Either the hydra isn't attacking at all anymore, or the hydra's attacks are occurring in between frames (not unusual here). Either way, however, the hydra should be getting AoO in each of those frames.

We also know that in the beginning of 326, Roy has already figured out that the hydra will collapse from blood pressure, a plan he didn't devise until after the hydra had grown 11 heads. At the end of 325, the hydra only had seven heads (two pops represents an increase in heads of one). In 326 we heard enough pops for another 13 heads (or 24 heads total). The fallen hydra has at least 45 heads visible (and probably many dozen more heads obscured by all the visible heads in the foreground), meaning that in between comics 325 and 326, at least 21 heads were popped (which means at least 21 new sunder attempts).

So, yes, the hydra's attacks all occurred off-screen. Five rounds of Belkar's attacks occurred on-screen (even if only audibly) and the hydra took no AoO.

[Simanos]

Can't argue with that. You're right. :smallredface:
I have to fall back to "house-ruled" Hydra argument then... :smalltongue:

[Nobbin]

I've checked all the way through this thread, and I didn't find any stats for Mr. Scruffy. Assuming Belkar is between 12th and 16th level:

Mr. Scruffy (Belkar's Animal Companion)
TN Tiny Animal 4
Hit Dice: 4d8 (11-32 hp, average 21 hp)
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +4 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 16
BA / Grapple: +3 / -8
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d2-3) and bite -1 melee (1d3-3)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +2
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +8, Hide +18*, Jump +12, Listen +3, Move Silently +10, Spot +3
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more

Description of Special Qualities:

Low-light vision: Mr. Scruffy can see twice as far as a human can in dim light.

Scent: Mr. Scruffy can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Link: Belkar can handle Mr. Scruffy as a free action, or push him as a move action, even if he doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. Belkar gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding Mr. Scruffy.

Share Spells: At Belkar's option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts upon himself also affect Mr. Scruffy. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of him at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting Mr. Scruffy if he moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if he returns to Belkar before the duration expires.

Additionally, Belkar may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. Belkar and Mr. Scruffy can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect animals.

Evasion: If Mr. Scruffy is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, he takes no damage if he makes a successful saving throw.

Devotion: Mr. Scruffy gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.


Mr. Scruffy has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump and Balance checks (included in stats). He uses his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

Mr. Scruffy has 1 free feat, 3 free skill points, and he knows up to 9 tricks. I'm assuming his 4th level ability score boost went into Dex, because (a) nothing else makes sense, and (b) Belkar didn't get to pick.

Thoughts?

[RMS Oceanic]

Good number crunching, but Belkar hasn't been proven to have more than 11 levels in Ranger.

[RMS Oceanic]

Vaarsuvius is in posession of twelve unnamed books, as well as "Finding Plot Holes for Dummies".

[Wrecan]

I see eleven books (including Plot Holes for Dummies). One of those books is V's spellbook. So that's only 9 books of unknown title.

Adding it into the possessions list!

[RMS Oceanic]

I count 13 in total. In the zoomed out page, there are six red books. When you zoom in, there's a green book and a brown book, two books propping up another book, the blue book and Plot Holes for Dummies. I accept the spellbook thing, though, so that's 11 unnamed books.

[Nerdanel]

So, does anyone have any ideas how V avoided huge, visible scratches (or any scratches at all) from the pit fiend's claws now that the lich theory appears all but rebutted?

Iron Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironBody.htm) looks to be a bit too high level for V to cast and in any case the 50% arcane spell failure would have been stupid to risk and would likely have resulted in at least one spell fizzle in the battle. Are there any other spells or effects that could have protected V?

[Amon Star]

623 seems to answer a lot about everyone's favourite purple haired spellcaster. The first is that he's definitely been re-memorizing spells without trancing. The second is that judging by what chest we could see, Ears is definitely male.

[Assassin89]

The second is that judging by what chest we could see, Ears is definitely male.

I wouldn't say that right now, because V could a flat-chested female, for all we know, but that would be an accurate assessment.

[Yendor]

Latest spells in V's book: See Invisibility and Dimensional Anchor. And variations on Grasping Hand.

[MammonAzrael]

Qarr is stated to be an imp, but I don't see teleportation or summoning abilities on normal imps. Am I missing something?

[Chronos]

The Giant seems fond of homebrewing all of his outsiders. Celia is medium-sized, Sabine might or might not be the wrong alignment and has abilities that don't match any standard fiend in any case, the pit fiend is much larger than Large-sized, bureaucratic devas don't show up in any book, etc.

[Enlong]

So, we now have evidence of V having See Invisibility, Dimensional Anchor, Bugsby's Grasping Hand (implied earlier, proved now), Bugsby's Flicking Finger, and Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit.

[Tempest Fennac]

Could Grasping Hand do all of the things s/he did to Qarr? That would make more sense then having 3 spells for the things which hapened in the comic.

[tcrudisi]

Could Grasping Hand do all of the things s/he did to Qarr? That would make more sense then having 3 spells for the things which hapened in the comic.

I had the same impression whenever I was reading the comic. Sure, you could argue that V was casting each individual spell, but it seems more likely to me that V was just changing applications of the same spell, in much the same way one would with Telekinesis.

[Nerdanel]

(Bigby's) Grasping Hand spell description in the SRD.


The grasping hand can also bull rush an opponent as forceful hand does, but at a +16 bonus on the Strength check (+10 for Strength 31, +4 for being Large, and a +2 bonus for charging, which it always gets), or interpose itself as interposing hand does.

Chances are V's spell is similarly multipurpose. Bugsby's Flicking Finger even appears to cause a bullrush effect like Forceful Hand but with different SFX, possibly enabled by Qarr's tiny size.

[King of Nowhere]

i too got the impression that the spell was the same and V was just controlling it, rather than casting new spells.
Yet Bugsby's expressive single digit may be a nice contrip to research.

[HandofShadows]

"Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit" I want this spell. And I have not played AD&D in a very long time. sm

[Studoku]

Bugsby's Expressive single digit reminds me of my first tabletop D&D game.

Me: I use mage hand to taunt (the enemies) by giving them the finger.
Other player: You can't do that- the hand is invisible.
Me: I use the hand to make a glove give the enemies the finger.

This was 4E. To me, 'at will' abilities mean 'use whenever possible'. I spent most of the adventure without touching anything.

[Illven]

Tuskiko needs at least two of 10th caster level wizard, Int of 20, or specialzation in evocation, enchantment, or transmutution, or one of 12th caster level wizard or Int 28 edvince is when she battled Haley in Azure city she used 3 5th level spells, Quickened lesser acid orb, Dominate person, and Telport, She also needs Silent spell for when she blasted Thanh when telling him he's lucky this isn't first addition

[TengYt]

625 proves Qaar has Sorceror levels, or at least can cast Sorceror spells.

[RMS Oceanic]

If he's casting Teleport as a Sorceror, rather than an Imp Special Ability, then he has 10 levels in Sorceror, and 15 Charisma.

A thought occurs: we should try and salvage that post of the Giant where he explains Miko v the Order's fight, as it's used as a source of information and it would be nice to keep the source.

[Nerdanel]

Chances are that V has surprisingly high Listen.

Noticing a standard imp taking 10 on Move Silently is a DC 19 Listen check, and if the listener is distracted (like V would have been) the check is DC 24. For V to even make that check on a natural 20 he would need +4 to Listen. To make the check even semi-reliably, he would need a lot more.

[RMS Oceanic]

Vaarsuvius has just fired off four Disintegrates in as many rounds. This indicates four non-Evocation spell slots of sixth level, indicating a minimum of 14th level and 22 Int.

[Kurald Galain]

Vaarsuvius just cast Disintegrate four times in a row.

Since he's not a transmutation specialist, that means that he's 14th level with an intelligence of 22+.

The alternatives are him being 17th level, or 13th level with a 30+ int; both are highly unlikely (can you even have 30 int at level 13? and if V was that high level, why isn't he using 9th-level spells, and why isn't the rest of the order similarly leveled?)

[SPoD]

Vaarsuvius has just fired off four Disintegrates in as many rounds. This indicates four non-Evocation spell slots of sixth level, indicating a minimum of 14th level and 22 Int.

It indicates no such thing, because he/she can prepare Disintegrate in a 7th level slot, which he/she has starting at 13th level.

[RMS Oceanic]

True, but unless you knew exactly what you were going to face that day, why would you? Why would V sacrifice a spell slot (s)he could use Power Word Blind or Color Spray in?

Besides, Haley has incontrovertably been proven to be level 15. Wouldn't it make sense for other Order members to have levelled up?

[Yendor]

V already used a 7th level slot on Grasping Hand.