Diplomacy - Subterfuge

[Shular]

Welcome to Diplomacy: Subterfuge!

It is the end of the 19th century, and the leaders have gone into seclusion. From their secret headquarters messeges fly, but nobody can be sure of who is saying what. Only the most clever will be able to determine who is who without revealing their own identity. But watch out for pretenders...those with their own agendas who hope to disrupt any alliances that might somehow be forged.

The rules of this game are simple. Aside from ensuring the proper orders are submitted to me, there are no rules. You can say what you want to whoever you want, and you can post any comments you wish to the main thread. I strongly advise you don't give away which country you are without carefull consideration, as that can give other players an advantage over you.

Good luck!

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/01Spring1901.jpg

Deadline for spring orders to be announced once all players have checked in.

[Neftren]

I'm here and ready to go.

[Aergoth]

Check. I'm ready to start.

[Psionic Dog]

Checking in for command.

[Daniel M]

Here 'guv and ready to play

[Moody the Wise]

I do say I am quite present and ready to begin my march to victory.

[Kalirren]

Hmm. I've never played France before.

England, what say you about the demilitarization of the Channel?

Also, this headline just in from Zurich:

Standoff Expected in Black Sea
Rumanian Separatists Revolt;
Russian Influence Suspected;
Obstinate Sultan Condemns Interference

[Shular]

Hmm, looks like we're just waiting for the Tunisians and/or the Portuguese to check in and we're ready to go.

[Jamin]

Ready to go sir

[Psionic Dog]

Hmm. I've never played France before.

England, what say you about the demilitarization of the Channel?


Uh-huh, and I suppose you'll also want me to stay out of the mid-Atlantic and the North Sea too? I don't think so. Belgium and Holland are our sworn friends. The crown may not be able to save the Spanish from your greedy fingers, but Belgium and Holland will never be yours. Even if it mean stationing our own troops there to defend them. Even if it means giving Denmark to Germany for appeasement.

[Shular]

Alrighty, looks like we're ready to go, and some of you have gotten started. Excellent!

I want to go at a fairly brisk pace, so I'll set the first orders due Thursday, Nov 13th, at 23:00 est. After that, seasons will be 3 days (i.e. Fall 1901 orders will be due Sunday night) and build turns 24 hours.

Any questions or concerns with these times?

[Aergoth]

I'd point out that the earliest either of you could make a move on either belgium or holland would be spring of next year, but that france would be unable to reach holland if england should decide to take it.

Incidentally, unless you plan to convoy your forces England, I suggest you send an army to ocupy the south, you have an exposed flank there.

France, you might want to pay atention to Burgandy, unless you have no problems with the Germans, it is an area of weakness.

Ladies, Gentlemen, the clock is in fact ticking.

[Kalirren]

...what? that's not true. A Par->Bur->Bel would be F01. So would F Bre->Pic/Eng-> Bel, but that would mean I would have to do something silly with the fleet at Brest. Much rather stick my grubby, smelly, fatty French fingers into Iberia.

Which is why I asked for the English Channel DMZ in the first place, England: but if you want to -force- me to send my fleet to the Channel I may have no choice but to oblige you. Are you telling me that you would rather risk the time lost and encourage the Czarina's ambitions in Scandinavia?

I really don't know what you're talking about, Aergoth. You must be Turkey. Only Turkey can get away with that degree of not making sense.

[Moody the Wise]

And I don't know what you guys are doing pretending to be France and England. It turns out I'm both of them, actually. I'm also Italy, Germany, Austria, Russia, and Turkey.

[Kroy]

Checking in! Just got back from Tacoma.

[Neftren]

And I don't know what you guys are doing pretending to be France and England. It turns out I'm both of them, actually. I'm also Italy, Germany, Austria, Russia, and Turkey.

Strange, considering all of you (excepting Moody) are masquerading as false nations.

[Aergoth]

How on earth could I be turkey when moody has claimed to be Turkey?
Honestly though, Tunasia is MINE! Don't even try taking it.
@France: I could have sworn the rules were, 1 move per season yes?
@Neftren: Would I lie to you? :smallfrown:
@Everyone: The above is completly rhetorical.

[Psionic Dog]

The seizing of Sweden by the Czar, while regrettable, is also inevitable unless the Germans choose to make an intervention. I can do nothing there.

Norway is England's, as assuredly as Spain could be France's.

Now, if a demilitarization was to occur at the strait, would that leave us equal? No. The crown might gain control of Denmark, Holland, or Belgium, but France would certainly wreck bloody havoc on Portugal, and further would be able to fend off the Germans as well as possibly taking our Belgium friends as ill-gotten war-spoils. Plainly, the French benefits of a DMZ are vastly greater than English benefits, and therefore not in the crowns best interest. Unless, the French have concessions they wish to offer... :smallamused:

[Jamin]

The Germans welcome all treaties with our glorious nation.

[Aergoth]

Or you could help me crush the french blight between the jaws of a mighty vicegrip?

Also, we grieve for the nation of Holand as it is soon to be subsumed by the germans.

The indpendant nation of Italy recognizes the leader of Germany, and offers him this: Stay away from us!

[Moody the Wise]

To whom it may concern:

My master, the glorious Sultan of Turkey, wishes to speak with the Tsar of Russia. If you believe this to be your identity, please contact my liege at once through private channels, where we may continue our negotiations in earnest.

[Aergoth]

The nation of Italy is displeased with the diplomatic overtures of Turkey towards Russia and demands their immediate cessation!

[Moody the Wise]

The nation of Italy is displeased with the diplomatic overtures of Turkey towards Russia and demands their immediate cessation!

The nation of Italy demands nothing ... go back to your gelato.

[Aergoth]

Italy will ally with anyone that will promise us the extinction of the Russian menace!
Incidentally, gelato is very good. It is a shame you do not have much in Turkey. We will have to introduce it in greater force when we subjugate you.

[Kroy]

Don't be mean to the russians! Besides, we need your help to kill france while I'll take them down with my mighty english fleet.

[Kalirren]

You know, I've completely lost track of who's claiming to be whom now.

I do believe that if Turkey and Russia -do- successfully enter negotiations, it is highly likely that England will have to fight to keep Norway in the second year, judging from the difficulty of negotiations so far.

Also, I count 8 people who have checked in. Someone really -is- playing Switzerland.

[Aergoth]

Thus we have a false leader in our midst. (Or else someone dropped out.)

[Psionic Dog]

Well, we do have a Universal President Elect amount us, ready to rescue any abandoned country from anarchy. I suppose that might count as a false leader. Anyone claiming to be this exiled leader? :smalltongue:

[Aergoth]

We apparently have the portugese/tunasians with us.
So, as it stands
Italy: ME!
"England": Psionic Dog
"France": Kailirren
"Turkey" Moody
"Germany" Jamin
"Russia" Sirek Inta
That leaves Austria and this portugese nation, that I don't remember seeing.
We have... Nerftren and Daniel M Therefore, assuming all of the mentioned nations are covered (not necessarilly by the parties mentioned) Nerftren and Daniel M are Austria and/or Portugal/Tunisia

The duly elected representative of the independant nation of Italy frowns on the false leader of Portugal and demands to know where this country is located, and what lands it claims.

[Neftren]

We apparently have the portugese/tunasians with us.
So, as it stands
Italy: ME!
"England": Psionic Dog
"France": Kailirren
"Turkey" Moody
"Germany" Jamin
"Russia" Sirek Inta
That leaves Austria and this portugese nation, that I don't remember seeing.
We have... Nerftren and Daniel M Therefore, assuming all of the mentioned nations are covered (not necessarilly by the parties mentioned) Nerftren and Daniel M are Austria and/or Portugal/Tunisia

The duly elected representative of the independant nation of Italy frowns on the false leader of Portugal and demands to know where this country is located, and what lands it claims.

I can tell you that one of those nations above is lying, because I am one of the primary seven nations.

[Aergoth]

I point the finger at Jamin. since Daniel M is probably austria (austria is a primary nation, so neftren could in fact be the leader of austria.)

[Neftren]

I point the finger at Jamin. since Daniel M is probably austria (austria is a primary nation, so neftren could in fact be the leader of austria.)

Good guess, but no, that is not the correct nation. I also have reason to believe that Kalirren is lying about his French identity.

[Kalirren]

I also have reason to believe that Kalirren is lying about his French identity.

Oh yeah? Well, are you willing to own up to being England, then, given that you're so willing to call Psionic Dog and me liars?

Everyone, don't listen to Neftren, he's just trying to kill me.

Oh wait. That doesn't work in this game. Never mind.

[Aergoth]

Well, I've got my little chart to determine identity, very very difficult this will be.

[Aergoth]

You know what, the easiest way to prove someone's identity would be to have them do something completely outrageous that would put them completely at their opponent's mercy (moving into the english channel without supporting for instance.)

[Neftren]

Oh yeah? Well, are you willing to own up to being England, then, given that you're so willing to call Psionic Dog and me liars?

Everyone, don't listen to Neftren, he's just trying to kill me.

Oh wait. That doesn't work in this game. Never mind.

Are you suggesting that I am England? I have made no clues as to my identity, other than the fact that I have reason to believe that you are not France and Psionic Dog is not England. It could also have been a ploy to force you to accidentally declare your true nationality. I guess you'll never know if you're intent on dying by my sword. Err... cannon.

[Aergoth]

I think we're not quite that slow, perhaps mortar or artillery would be appropriate, chlorine gas or mustad gas get invented during this war if I recall.

[Neftren]

It is the turn of the century, so I would assume that cannon is still in use up until true artillery is manufactured by the time World War I rolls around.

[Psionic Dog]

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'artillery.' In my book the 'artillery' replaced 'cannon' over the course of the American Civil War 50 years prior. Now sure some backwater nations might have still been using 'cannon' by now, but I'd imagine all the major powers had converted to true artillery.

[Kroy]

Anyone interested in helping me crush Germany, let me know.

[Kalirren]

I'm not suggesting anything, Neftren. I don't know why you're overreacting. I couldn't possibly know that the only way you would be able to know that the two of us are charading is that either Moody or you are England. So I don't suppose you'll deign to give me a comment on whether or not the Channel is actually a DMZ.

But I'm certainly interested in crushing Germany, so I have matters to attend to. I'm sure you know how to reach me if/when you change your mind.

[Moody the Wise]

I'm not suggesting anything, Neftren. I don't know why you're overreacting. I couldn't possibly know that the only way you would be able to know that the two of us are charading is that either Moody or you are England. So I don't suppose you'll deign to give me a comment on whether or not the Channel is actually a DMZ.

But I'm certainly interested in crushing Germany, so I have matters to attend to. I'm sure you know how to reach me if/when you change your mind.


Whoa, wait, when did I get sucked into this? I'm Turkey, remember?

[Daniel M]

Yes well im Turkey and Austria and France and Romania. :smallbiggrin:

[Neftren]

I'm not suggesting anything, Neftren. I don't know why you're overreacting. I couldn't possibly know that the only way you would be able to know that the two of us are charading is that either Moody or you are England. So I don't suppose you'll deign to give me a comment on whether or not the Channel is actually a DMZ.

But I'm certainly interested in crushing Germany, so I have matters to attend to. I'm sure you know how to reach me if/when you change your mind.

For all you know, I could be charading. I am in contact with a number of people and the logical deduction I have drawn is pretty straightforward. Of course I could also be charading as someone else in an attempt to force your hand and make you reveal your identity. I guess we'll see on Thursday.

[Aergoth]

The point is that unless one of us has holmesian powers of deduction, it's going to take a while, based on the knowledge of only one person's identity (two, if you can make an educated guess as to who is "portugal") to puzzle out the identity of the other 5.

[Aergoth]

Alright, so, today we learn what's going on. Basic logic suggests the following: As t (time) increases, the probability of L (lying) increases proportionally.
But that's a little stupid. Because people make mistakes.

[Shular]

Edit: Juvenile humour deleted. I'm done with my gits and shiggles for the day. :smallsmile:

[Shular]

Just under
23 HOUR WARNING
for Spring 1901 orders.

[Psionic Dog]

Alright everyone, you heard the man. We all have *checks watch* less than 15 hours to get those orders for the pillaging of France in. :smallbiggrin:

[Aergoth]

Not to mention sections of Hungray, Spain and Denmark.

[Shular]

Seven-and-a-half hours. Get those orders in!

[Kalirren]

Yay!

We're off to see the Wizard...the Wonderful Wizard of Oz!

*dances*

[Psionic Dog]

I can't wait to see how crazily this thing falls. :smallamused:

[Moody the Wise]

Yeah, seriously ... I ordered A SMY-DEN, A CON-MUN, and F ANK-POR.

'Cause I'm craaaaaazy!

In all seriousness, I don't think it'll be that weird, really. There are only so many openings that make any sort of sense. We might see some of the less popular ones, like Turkey - I mean, me - ordering A SMY-ARM, or Germany opening Kiel to Holland instead of Denmark, but I don't think we'll see anything that's bat-sh*t insane.

[Aergoth]

I think Moody is BSing. He's not turkey, and anyone who can't see it after that post is more than a little o.O

[Shular]

SPRING 1901 RESULTS:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/02Fall1901.jpg?t=1226636509

Turkey:
Con - Bul: OK
Smy - Con: OK
Ank S Smy - Con: OK

Russia:
StP - Fin: OK
Sev - Rum: OK
War - Gal: Bounce with Vie;
Mos - War: Bounce with War;

Italy:
Ven - Tyr: OK
Rom - Ven: Bounce with Tri;
Nap - Ion: OK

Germany:
Mun S Vie - Tyr: Void;
Kie - Hol: OK
Ber - Kie: OK

France:
Mar - Bur: OK
Bre - MAt: OK
Par S Mar - Bur: OK

England:
Edi - Nrg: OK
Lon - Nth: OK
Liv - Yor: OK

Austria:
Vie - Gal: Bounce with War;
Bud - Ser: OK
Tri - Ven: Bounce with Rom;

FALL 1901 Orders due:
Sunday, November 16, 23:00

[Moody the Wise]

If the Emperor of Austria knows what is good for him, he'll see me in my office ... now.

[Shular]

For the record, since there are some reletively new players in this game, that first season I helped some players clarify their orders. However, part of the game is the fact that miswritten orders fail. Therefore, going forward, I will be adjudicating orders as written.

That being said, if you have any questions about how to set up/write some orders, I'm quite happy answer them. I wont give movement advice, but I will let you know the proper order format, as well as outcome given a specific scenario.

[Moody the Wise]

You can also ask me to proofread your orders. :smalltongue: I have a flawless understanding of the game mechanics of Diplomacy.

[Aergoth]

We can now officially call Moody on his whole "Turkey" shtick. Will the real Turkey please stand up?

Also: Whoever the heck is pulling this whole "Portugal" shtick, kindly remove your self from deliberations. Do not let the door hit you on the way out.

What we've seen right here, interesting. I've got a one track mind in some cases, so I didn't see several of those movements coming.

I can't help but wonder at the logic of the person running France. The only possible purpose of moving the army out of Marseilles is to open the home supply depot there, while covering it from the Germans. The fact that Italy didn't move to tag it suggests that either A) I'm stuck on the idea that A mar-spa is a brilliant idea, and that Italy failed to try to exploit it or B) France and Italy have some kind of agreement. Argument C) presents itself as being: Someone wasn't thinking.

[Kalirren]

I can assure you that my decision to move Marseilles to Burgundy as opposed to Paris (which would have been the more traditional Maginot) was fully and accurately calculated. Thank you very much for your confidence in the matter.

Good luck in Greece, Aergoth; I hear the Austrians are panicking, and won't much interfere.

[Moody the Wise]

Aergoth -

You can call me on whatever you want. The idea that I'm Turkey is still entirely plausible. Turkey has just as much reason to talk to Austria as anyone else that you might suppose me to be.

Spoilered for space because it turned into a rather lengthy discussion of French and Italian strategy

As for France, the orders given, when considered alongside England's orders, imply a strong Anglo-French alliance. Indeed, we may even see Mat swing down to Spain (sc) this Fall to open up the Italian front as early as possible. Furthermore, Early Leader Syndrome is an ugly thing. France has one of the better shots at picking up 3 SCs in 1901, but is it really wise? A four-SC France (or 5, if France can pick up Belgium, which is unlikely if Germany sees the writing on the wall, unless England wants to support the move from the North Sea) is much less threatening, and can continue to work with England against Germany without getting England too nervous, as England likely ends the year at 4 SCs, 5 if he or she is very lucky, or 6 only with a miracle (like France opening to the Channel and agreeing to convoy England's army to Belgium while supporting the move from Burgundy). Furthermore, the moves France gave are exactly the sort of quirky but not suicidal moves that I predicted we would see to help establish legitimacy.

Now, as to your analysis of Italian strategy ... I think the move to Piedmont is overrated. At best, it means France ends the year with an army in Marseilles, unless you have a very risky France who makes the gamble to leave Marseilles open. This begins a long period of antagonism with France, unless England and Germany have allied against France and France forgives Italy because France finds itself suddenly in need of all the friends it can get. Of course, if this is the case, Italy is of more use to France in Tyrolia than in Piedmont. An Italy that has moved to Tyrolia has the flexibility of going to Munich, Vienna, or Trieste, any of which has a higher chance of paying off than Marseilles, for reasons given above. If France and England turn out to be allied, Italy may earn a stay of execution on France's Italian campaign by helping EF take Munich. In the event of an EG, Italy is prepared to jump right into bailing out France. If things in Western Europe remain unclear, Italy can hold its strong tactical position or move on Austria, depending on conditions in the Southeast.

[Aergoth]

France, unless they ally with Italy (I'd consider this risky) has to go through italy at some point. The progression of events, unless France is insane or led by an idiot, is that France takes spain and portugal. They then move into the waters adjacent Italy, and the two being fighting. A move to spain from Marseilles gives France an assurance of 2 SCs, while they could potentially gain (as you said) 4 or 5 (assuming an insane/stupid/otherwise occupied leader of Germany) The Italians then exploit this, and have a (relatively) safe SC to add to building a fleet, as well as a reason to fight with the French beyond " 'ey, you get da heck outta my pool!" Thus is progress made. The only problem is that this particular movement is helped greatly by an alliance with Austria, because otherwise, you're forced expose your neck to them, so to speak.

@Kalirren, Interesting observation. I'd love to hear what sparked it.

@Moody I'd argue it isn't. Austria and Turkey are fighting for the same piece of the pie. Turkey starts in a corner, with Russia above it. In order to survive any length of time, turkey has to be able to expand rapidly (projections allow for a 2 SC capture in 1901 if the person playing Austria is sloppy/slow on the uptake) I'd have to say that Austria and Turkey fighting is inevitable. Get it over with at the start. Austria and Italy can ally because they don't have to fight over the south-central west, and they have a common enemy in Turkey. Austria and Italy can expand north east and south west respectively.

[Shular]

Hmm. It's quiet. Is it safe to assume negotiations have now moved to private messages?

[Aergoth]

Negotiations have been in private messages since page 1. We just have gotten past the commentary. And since it's the weekend, people are chilling places other than the internet.

[Shular]

Lol. Except you? :smalltongue:

[Aergoth]

What I'm doing requires me to be at the computer anyways. I'm contemplating world domination anyhow.

[Daniel M]

No one loves me enough to message me.

Well 1 person loves me :smallbiggrin:

Can someone remind me when i get to build and how to convoy please :smallconfused:?

[Aergoth]

Building is in winter, which is the move after fall. Convoy, grab jDip, it should help you phrase the order.

[Shular]

For convoying, give the order for the land unit, including the sear route to be taken, and order the fleet to convoy that move. For example:

A Lon - Eng - Bel
F Eng C A Lon - Bel

This would order the fleet in the English channel to convoy the army from London to Belgium.

Convoys are only disrupted if the convoying fleet is dislodged. A failed move leaves the army where it starts. You can also order multiple fleets to complete a convoy:

A Lon - Eng - MAO - Spa
F Eng C A Lon - Spa
F MAO C A Lon - Spa

I'm fairly lenient, so you can probably get away with not including the intermediary steps in the army's orders, but if there's a chance of misinterpretation it's better to be as explicit in the orders as possible.

[Shular]

Oh, and

24 HOUR WARNING for Fall 1901

Builds will be due Monday night.

[Shular]

6 Hour Warning

[Aergoth]

Very interesting. I think all of the alliances are cemented.

[Shular]

Fall 1901 Results

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/03Builds1901.jpg?t=1226895855

Turkey:
Bul - Gre: OK
Con - Bul: OK
Ank - Con: OK

Russia:
War H: OK
Mos - StP: OK
Fin - Swe: OK
Rum H: OK

Italy:
Tyr - Vie: Bounce with Vie;
Rom - Ven: OK
Ion - Tun: OK

Germany:
Kie - Den: Bounce with Yor;
Mun - Sil: OK
Hol S Bur - Bel: OK

France:
Bur - Bel: OK
Par - Bur: OK
MAt - Spa: OK

England:
Nrg - Nwy: OK
Yor - Nth - Den: Bounce with Kie;
Nth C Yor - Den: OK

Austria:
Tri - Adr: OK
Vie - Tri: Bounce with Ser;
Ser - Tri: Bounce with Vie;



*** Adjudicated with Diplo 2.8 ***


Turkey gains Bul.
Russia gains Rum.
England gains Nwy.
Germany gains Hol.
France gains Bel.
France gains Spa.
Austria gains Ser.
Turkey gains Gre.
Russia gains Swe.
Italy gains Tun.

Turkey may build 2 units.
Russia may build 2 units.
Italy may build 1 unit.
Germany may build 1 unit.
France may build 2 units.
England may build 1 unit.
Austria may build 1 unit.

Build Orders due:
Monday, November 16th, 23:00 EST

[Psionic Dog]

Requesting audience with Turkey.

[Shular]

While I'm here:

8 HOUR 38 MINUTE WARNING! :smallbiggrin:

[Aergoth]

I think you could have rounded down.

[Shular]

Builds 1901

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/04Spring1902.jpg?t=1226981920

Austria:
A Tri
England:
F Lon
France:
F Mar
F Bre
Germany:
A Mun
Italy:
A Rom
Russia:
A Mos
A Sev
Turkey:
A Smy
A Ank

Edit: Oops...forgot something:

Spring 1902 orders due:
Thursday, November 20th, 23:00

As mentioned before, in year one I pointed out errors in orders. That will no longer be the case. If you ask how to write an order I'll tell you, but I won't point out miswritten orders.

[Kalirren]

I thought I would include some press as usual, but I'm too lazy to think up anything actual, so as a gesture of apology, i offer you the following most amusing short, which I assumed would appeal to this crowd of gamers in particular:

The Coast of Moscow
by Allan B. Calhamer, inventor of Diplomacy


None of us was surprised when Russia ordered the raise of a Fleet in Moscow; but we were when he insisted it were legal. In the ensuing discussion Russia indicated further that he intended to move the Fleet coastwise to Sevastopol; and then, on the understanding that Sevastopol had only one coast, to move it on to Rumania, the Black Sea, or Armenia.

At least it became clear what he was up to. Congestion in the Don River Shipyards being what it was, he hoped to raise fleets twice as fast as usual for his southern frontier, by building them in Moscow.

I think the Northern powers rather approved of the idea. Austria-Hungary was dubious; Turkey, aghast.

"In order for Moscow to have a coast", said Turkey, "it seems either you have to follow one or the other of two theories. Either Moscow has a coast because it simply looks that way on the map, or else it has a coast because it borders on a body of water, that is, the Caspian."

"Sounds like a distinction without a difference" said Italy.

"If we follow the first theory" resumed Turkey, "that Moscow has a coast because it looks that way on the map, then what of Sevastopol? Certainly Sevastopol must have two coasts, because it looks that way on the map. Furthermore, since these two coasts are not named on the board, it may be impossible for Russia to raise Fleets at Sevastopol at all, Raise F Sev being void due to ambiguity.

"If we follow the second theory" Turkey went on, "we have to ask what the situation is if Moscow borders a body of water."

"Topologically" said Germany, "nothing at all borders on the Caspian, since you can't move to it. Therefore, Moscow has no coast."

Russia broke in. "Rule VII. 1. does not say that an unnamed space cannot be a body of water. It says, merely, that `Units may not move...to any location not specifically named on the board.'"

"But is the Caspian a body of water?" asked A-H. "Rule VI. 2. in the 1971 rulebook, says `The seas are divided into "bodies of water" by light, solid black lines.' There are no such lines in the Caspian."

"Are there such lines in the Black?" Russia challenged.

"Sure," replied A-H. "On the 1961 map, there is a very short black line separating the Black Sea from the Bosporus. The line is not a line from the base map; it's thicker than the coastlines, and there would be no reason for it on the base map."

"But does that line," asked Russia, "`divide the seas into bodies of water' as it says in Rule VI. 2.? It divides the Black only from Constantinople, which is not part of the seas."

"Maybe Constantinople is part of the seas, because Fleets can move through it" offered A-H.

"The trouble is," replied Russia, "Constantinople is clearly called a `province' in Rule VII. 3. a., Kiel and Constantinople. Nowhere does it say that Constantinople is part of the seas. It just says that there is a waterway through it."

"If Moscow borders on a body of water, the Caspian," said Turkey, "then so does Sevastopol, which then has two coasts. Is it then impossible to move a fleet there at all, because each coast is a `location not specifically named on the board', within the purview of Rule VII. 1.?"

"To employ the purview of Rule VII. 1.," said France, "it is necessary first to have a clear understanding of that purview. If `location' should seem merely the name of a province, then, of course, it would be permissible to move there, since Sevastopol is named on the map."

"All that doesn't matter," maintained Russia, "because Sevastopol doesn't have two coasts, because it isn't named as a `Province Having Two Coasts' in Rule VII. 3. b. Furthermore, Rule XIII. 2. says `If Russia builds a Fleets in St. Petersburg, he must specify the coast...'. No mention is made of Sevastopol, hence Sev. must only have one coast."

"Yes," replied Turkey, "but there are two ways it could only have one coast: because the two apparent coasts are one, or because you can't play on the Caspian coast. But if the Caspian is a body of water, then Sevastopol borders on two bodies of water, leading to various difficulties."

Russia answered, "Well, Albania borders on both Adriatic and Ionian, yet it has only one coast."

"Sure," said Turkey, "but Adriatic and Ionian are adjacent. Caspian and Black aren't."

"How do we know that?" asked France.

"We can see it!" exclaimed Turkey.

"Are we back to the appearance theory?" asked England.

"Distinction without a difference," murmured Italy.

"You have to use appearances to determine the mere gross topology of the board," spluttered Turkey.

"Maybe we should have a list of all possible topological links," said Germany.

"That wouldn't be official," England exclaimed. "Then, there's the danger that when you re-state anything, you may make mistakes in the restatement. Third, it seems like you would have to decide this case in order to make up the list."

Then France offered, "We may have a solution in the wording of Rule VII. 1.: `The Fleet may move to an adjacent coastal province only if it is adjacent along the coastline, so that the vessels could move down the coast to that province.' It is sufficiently obvious that the vessels can't get from the Caspian to the Black."

"I's the Potemkin villages all over again," England observed. "They told the Tsar they could build Fleets in Moscow and go down the Volga to fight the Turks. They knew he wouldn't know that there was no way the vessels could get to the Black."

Russia answered. "But we're not talking about a move from one coastal province to another. Sevastopol is one province."

"Then it's like Spain," said France. "We always have to go out from the same coast we went in at."

Russia rejoined, "But it doesn't have two coasts; Rules VII. 3. b. and XIII. 2. It has one coast, and we're glad to go in at any point, and come out at any other point on that single coast."

"What if Russia wanted to build a Fleet in St. Petersburg, on the coast of Lake Ladoga?" asked France.

Russia answered coolly. "The rules clearly state that St. Pete has two coasts, not three. Since they do not mention Sev., we have to assume it has only one."

"Since Sevastopol is not mentioned," said Italy, "it might have six."

"You can see it doesn't have six!" exclaimed Russia.

"Appearances, appearances," said Italy. "You can see it has two."

"Which bolloxes everything as far as raising Fleets in Sevastopol is concerned, if nothing else." added Germany.

"Not quite," said Turkey. "Russia could always escape ambiguity by writing Raise F Sev (Black Sea Coast), invoking Rule VII. 4., `A badly written order, which nevertheless can only have one meaning, must be followed.' Incidentally, his raise last turn was invalid, because he failed to specify the coast. That Fleet should come off."

At this point England remarked that in Hugo's Ninety-Three the Marquis de Lantenac, in a single hearing, ordered one and the same man to be decorated for bravery and shot for dereliction of duty. "In somewhat the same spirit," he said, "I suggest we recommend Russia for a Rusty Bolt, for coming up with the weirdest rule interpretation in many years, while nevertheless, at one and the same time, ruling out any use of the alleged Caspian or its alleged coasts."

And they all agreed, four to two, with one abstention.

[Shular]

19 Hour 30 Minute Warning!

[Shular]

3 HOUR WARNING!

Were the boards out for long (I just got home)? If so, I can give an extension, but I'd prefer to keep it at 11pm so that I can process the orders before I go to bed.

[Aergoth]

It was out for quite a while, 9:30 EST at least.

[Psionic Dog]

How in the world did you get an 8:05 post in?

I kept getting "down for maintenance" messages from 5:00 PM EST to 10:30 PM EST, a which point I gave up and went to bed.

[Shular]

I must have fluked out. But yes, I was also unable to get back in before I went to bed. I'm missing one set of orders, so I will extend the deadline to either 23:00 tonight, or whenever the last set of orders comes in, whichever comes first.

[Aergoth]

Ehem...

PH33R t3h cr45h

[Shular]

Spring 1902 Results!

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/05Spring1902R.jpg?t=1227311595
Turkey:
Con - Aeg: OK
Smy - Con: OK
Bul S Gre - Ser: OK
Gre - Ser: OK

Russia:
Rum S Ser - Bul: Void;
StP - Fin: OK
Mos - StP: OK
Sev - Arm: OK
War H: OK
Swe H: OK

Italy:
Tun - Wes: OK
Rom - Apu: OK
Tyr - Tri: Bounce with Tri;
Ven S Tyr - Tri: Cut by Adr;

Germany:
Sil - Boh: OK
Mun S Sil - Boh: OK
Kie S Mun H: OK
Hol - Nth: Bounce with Lon;

France:
Bre - Eng: OK
Mar - GoL: OK
Spa - Por: OK
Bel H: OK
A Bur S -> Munich: Failed - ambiguous...not sure if inteded to support Mun hold, or miswritten support for a unit moving into Mun

England:
Nth - Ska: OK
Lon - Nth: Bounce with Hol;
Yor - Lon: Bounce with Lon;
Nwy H: OK

Austria:
Ser S Rum - Bul: Void; Dislodged by Gre 2:1;
Adr - Ven: Bounce with Ven;
Tri S Adr - Ven: Cut by Tyr;
Vie - Tyr: Bounce with Tyr;


Austria may retreat army in Ser to: Alb Bud

Retreat order due: Saturday, 18:00 (only one, so can post retreat here or PM)
Fall 1902 orders due Tuesday, Nov 25th, 23:00

[Shular]

Headlines!

Denmark Celebrates Continued Independence!

Plenty of Support, But No Movement into Bulgaria, Costs Austria Serbia

Russia Invades Turkey

Expose: France and Italy - Two ships, passing in the night.

[Shular]

Err. Just realized posting retreat would give away identity of Austria. Better PM me the retreat. :smallbiggrin:

[Aergoth]

Oh don't worry, we won't tell anyone!

[Shular]

Austrian army Serbia retreats to Budapest

New Map:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/06Fall1902.jpg?t=1227397582

Fall 1902 orders due
Tuesday, Nov 25th, 23:00

[Aergoth]

Anyone else notice that the bravado posturing and such has all stopped? Everyone got serious after the beginning of the Fall move.

[Shular]

I certainly noticed. Don't be afraid to post headlines, folks. I'm sure there's a way to do so without revealing which country you are. :smallcool:

[Shular]

This is your 15 hour warning!

Don't forget those orders :-)

[Jamin]

Just so everyone knows I will be for real playing Germany now as Kalirren is busy or something like that

[Shular]

Fall 1902 Results!

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/07Fall1902R.jpg?t=1227675537

Russia:
Fin - Nwy: OK
Swe S Fin - Nwy: Dislodged by Nwy 2:1;
StP - Fin: OK
Rum - Bul: Bounce with Bul;
Arm - Ank: Bounce with Ank;
War - Ukr: OK

Italy:
Wes - MAt: OK
Tyr - Tri: Bounce with Adr;
Ven S Tyr - Tri: OK
Apu H: OK

Germany:
Hol - Bel: Bounce with Bel;
Kie - Den: OK
Mun - Ruh: OK
Boh - Mun: OK

France:
Por - Spa Illegal; :
GoL - Spa: OK
Eng H: OK
Bel - Eng - Lon: Void;
Bur H: OK

England:
Lon - Nth: OK
Yor - Lon: OK
Nwy - Swe: OK
Ska S Nwy - Swe: OK

Austria:
Tri - Ser: OK
Bud S Tri - Ser: OK
Adr - Tri: Bounce with Tyr;
Vie S Adr - Tri: OK

Turkey: NMR (Advice: if you're not sure you sent in orders, it doesn't hurt to re-send them)

Turkey may retreat army in Ser to: Alb Gre

Russia may retreat fleet in Swe to: Bal Bot

Retreat orders due Nov 26, 23:00.
Build orders due Nov 27, 23:00
Spring 1903 orders due Mon Dec 1st, 23:00

[Psionic Dog]

That... that was not what I had predicted would happen. By anyone. :smalleek:

Out of curiosity, why is the French order Por -> Spain Illegal :smallconfused:

[Neftren]

That... that was not what I had predicted would happen. By anyone. :smalleek:

Out of curiosity, why is the French order Por -> Spain Illegal :smallconfused:

Perhaps it's because there is already a French Fleet in Spain that didn't vacate the territory? I dunno... Also, what was with the Bel - Eng - Lon order from France? Was it an attempted convoy?

[Aergoth]

Maybe the applet had a computerized equivalent to a brain-fail.

[Shular]

F Por - Spa failed because the order didn't specify south coast or north coast.

Convoy failed because F Eng was ordered to H instead of convoy.

[Shular]

7 hour warning for retreats

[Shular]

Retreats: Swe R to Bot, Ser R to Gre

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/08Builds1902.jpg?t=1227761141

Russia takes Nwy from England.
Germany gains Den.
England takes Swe from Russia.
France gains Por.

Germany may build 1 unit.
France may build 1 unit.

Build orders due Nov 27, 23:00
Spring 1903 orders due Mon Dec 1st, 23:00

[Kroy]

***Russian and English Stupidity In Scandinavia Surprises All***
***Russian and English Stupidity In Scandinavia SurprisesMost

[Neftren]

Or it could be the English having brilliantly second guessed the Russians.
However, the French are taking a not so friendly attitude towards their neighbors to the north.
The Italians are being really weird with their fleet.
Austria seems to have slipped up and allowed Turkey to breakout.

[Aergoth]

Yeah but turkey slipped up there. They let Austria get Serbia back because of inaction. That was a bad move.

[Kroy]

If you look, Russia cut any possible support from Bul, leaving Ser to fight two Austrian armies alone. Action could not have saved Ser, but better planning might have.

[Shular]

France builds A Par
Germany builds F Kie

Spring 1903

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/09Spring1903.jpg?t=1227848051

Spring 1903 orders due:

Sunday, Nov. 30, 23:00 (disregard previous post)

[Shular]

24 hour warning!

[Kalirren]

Or it could be the English having brilliantly second guessed the Russians.
However, the French are taking a not so friendly attitude towards their neighbors to the north.
The Italians are being really weird with their fleet.
Austria seems to have slipped up and allowed Turkey to breakout.


I second this opinion. The way I see it, this is England's way of making Germany dance to the British tune...The fact is that England now has three fleets to bear on Denmark and uncuttable support from the Skag. The only way that Denmark will remain German is for Germany to either cut a deal with England's honor or move into the Baltic and anger Russia while trusting France (whom he's undoubtedly just pissed off with his fall moves).

Italy is a good player, hands down.

[Shular]

30 minute warning - get those orders in!!

[Shular]

Anarchy in the UK (not to mention Italy and Turkey)!

Results for Spring 1903

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/10Fall1903.jpg?t=1228106303

Russia:
Arm - Smy: OK
Rum - Bla: OK
Ukr - Rum: OK
Fin S Nwy H: OK
Nwy H: OK
Bot - Swe: Bounce with Swe;

Germany:
Den H: OK
Hol - Bel: Bounce with Bel;
Kie S Den H: OK
Ruh S Mun - Bur: OK
Mun - Bur: Bounce with Bur;

France:
Por H: OK
Spa H: OK
Bel H: OK
Eng - Bre: OK
Bur H: OK
Par S Bur H: OK

Note to France: "Par -> Support Bur if he gets attacked" I accepted THIS time, but in the future, orders can't be conditional. (Especially since I could have interpreted this grammatically as Par being the "he" that must be under attack)

Austria:
Ser H: OK
Bud S Ser H: OK
Adr - Tri: OK
Vie S Adr - Tri: OK

England: NMR

Italy: NMR

Turkey: NMR

No retreats. Fall orders due
Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 23:00 hours
(Try not to miss them:smallwink:)

[Kalirren]

You know, based upon my understanding of who knew who was playing whom, I would wager that all of the clueless people just NMRed.

[Moody the Wise]

You know, based upon my understanding of who knew who was playing whom, I would wager that all of the clueless people just NMRed.

A bold little theory. I think Italy's NMR was brilliant, though. As you yourself said earlier, "Italy is a good player, hands down."

[Kalirren]

Turkey's NMR was the most suspect of them all. England and Italy really lost nothing, but I doubt that Turkey will survive the loss of Bulgaria/Smyrna.

I have to admit that it was a very clever use of NMR. Props to the architect who organized that move.

[Neftren]

I will state that I deliberately NMR'ed. Partly it was just not knowing what to do, or who to trust.

[Aergoth]

He's full of it. Look, Turkey's probably AFI or similar.

[Psionic Dog]

I will state that I deliberately NMR'ed. Partly it was just not knowing what to do, or who to trust.

You can trust me. :smallbiggrin:

[Kroy]

What does NMR? No messages ready?

[Kalirren]

NMR = No Moves Recieved [by the moderator]. But I don't know what AFI means.

Well, if Turkey's player is really gone, I can understand. Turkey's board position is not enviable, what with the Russian fleet in the Black Sea and no builds in sight, or meddling Germans for Russia to worry about.

[Neftren]

Well depending on Russia's next strategy... he can either go for the English or the Austro-Hungarians. I can see the Russians trying to beat England, but as it stands, the English are in an excellent position to just keep dancing between Sweden and Norway. Now all they need is a friend to help beat up on Russia. It'd probably be convenient if Germany would pitch in, but again, nobody really knows who is who.

I can foresee a future French stab of Germany. There seems to be a sort of... standoff building. The French probably couldn't, or wouldn't fight the English with their removal of the fleet in the English Channel, but I could just as easily say they wanted to protect Brest from potential Italian invasion. However, Italy wouldn't gain anything by entering this turn, so any move by the Italians in the Atlantic would have to be a brilliant second guess against the French.

Moving into the Balkans... Austria-Hungary is in a deadlock. If they work together against Russia, I could see both AH and Turkey recover. Turkey's position is hardly enviable, but if the Turkish can pull of some decent bounce-warfare to exploit game mechanics, they can certainly retake Smyrna without losing anything.

[Aergoth]

AFI means Away from Internet. They could just not have reliable internet access, be it firewalled or similar.

[Shular]

AFI means Away from Internet. They could just not have reliable internet access, be it firewalled or similar.
Please let me know if you may have a problem sending orders in due to being away or bad connection (though if you can't connect, I can understand that it might be difficult to let me know).

It's always a good habit to send in preliminary orders as soon as possible, then updated ones later, just to ensure you have something in.

[Shular]

24 hour warning!!

(Already??)

[Aergoth]

Russia can't hold Smyrna any ways. It seems either to be a move directed at moving that fleet of Turkey's out of the Aegean or misdirecting a supply chain in the north of Turkey. Goodness knows that you could do wonders with that little y shaped deal they've got going.

[Shular]

Anyone else having as much lag on this site as I am (which is quite a bit)?

[Kroy]

Yes, It took me two hours to get on!

[Shular]

It appears to be working better now, but since I only have 5 sets of orders in, and there WAS a problem, I am extending the order "due date" to 8pm (20:00 hours) tomorrow (4th) night.

[Shular]

Fall 1903 Results (Revised):

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/11Fall1903R.jpg?t=1228503199

Turkey:
Ank S Aeg - Smy: Void;
Gre S Bul H: OK
Con S Bul H: Cut by Smy;
Bul H: Dislodged by Ser 3:2;

Russia:
Smy - Con: Bounce with Con;
Rum S Ser - Bul: OK
Bla S Ser - Bul: OK
Fin - Swe: OK
Nwy S Fin - Swe: Cut by Lon; Dislodged by Lon 2:1;
Bot S Fin - Swe: OK

Italy:
Tyr - Boh: OK
MAt - Bre: Bounce with Bre;
Ven - Tri: Bounce with Tri;
Apu - Ven: Bounce with Ven;

Germany:
Den H: OK
Kie S Den H: OK
Mun - Bur: Bounce with Bur;
Ruh - Bel: OK
Hol S Ruh - Bel: OK

France:
Bel H: Dislodged by Ruh 2:1;
Bur S Bel H: Cut by Mun;
Por H: OK
Spa H: OK
Bre - MAt: Bounce with MAt;
Par - Gas: OK

England:
Lon - Nth - Nwy: OK
Nth C Lon - Nwy: OK
Ska S Lon - Nwy: OK
Swe H: Dislodged by Fin 2:1;

Austria:
Ser - Bul: OK
Bud - Ser: OK
Tri H: OK
Vie S Tri H: OK

Turkey disbands unit in Bul

Russia may retreat army in Nwy to: Fin StP

France may retreat army in Bel to: Pic

England may retreat fleet in Swe to: Bal

Note: The decision on the "Run" orders for Germany was a tough one. In the end I had to go with a strict interpretation of the rules. Part of the game is ensure that orders are clear. Doesn't mean I don't feel kind of bad about it though.
Edit: Moody convinced me. Sorry for the confusion.

Retreat Orders due: Friday, Dec 5th, 23:00
Builds due: Saturday, Dec 6th, 23:00
Spring orders due: Tuesday, Dec 9th, 23:00

[Kroy]

***Is England abandoning all in an attempt to take Scandinavia?***
***Is Italy trying to take an undefended Warsaw? Or is he moving towards Austria?***
***Is there a Three way treaty in between Italy, England, and France?***

[Jamin]

I agree the GM decision this just means that I'll not read the broad with no contacts on

[Moody the Wise]

I feel obligated to say that I must respectfully disagree with the decision made in the case of "A Run-Bel." I believe that some measure of leniency with orders and strict adherence to the rules as published are not mutually exclusive concepts. I cite the clause in the rulebook that states "A poorly written order that can nevertheless have only one meaning must be followed." I can't think of any other meaning for "A Run-Bel" than "A Ruh-Bel."

I say this as someone who is not playing Germany, nor particularly aligned with Germany or against France.

[Shular]

I get where you're coming from, Moody, and that's why it was a tough decision. I thought "well, it COULD mean Rum as well." Of course, Germany is nowhere near, Rum. However, this was a very borderline case, and I decided to err on the side of rules enforcement. Perhaps I was wrong to do so.

Normally, a referee will stick to his guns on a decision, but in this case, I'll open it up to the players. In the interest of fair play, if players unanimously agree to allow the orders, I will re-do the season's moves. Note that this decision may also impact future orders. So any future orders with a single letter off, that none-the-less are "obvious" would also get the benefit of the doubt.

So what do you all say (I think we already know Moody's vote, and while Jamin has expressed agreement, he's free to change his mind)? Is Run acceptable for Ruh?

[Moody the Wise]

I get where you're coming from, Moody, and that's why it was a tough decision. I thought "well, it COULD mean Rum as well." Of course, Germany is nowhere near, Rum. However, this was a very borderline case, and I decided to err on the side of rules enforcement. Perhaps I was wrong to do so.

Normally, a referee will stick to his guns on a decision, but in this case, I'll open it up to the players. In the interest of fair play, if players unanimously agree to allow the orders, I will re-do the season's moves. Note that this decision may also impact future orders. So any future orders with a single letter off, that none-the-less are "obvious" would also get the benefit of the doubt.

So what do you all say (I think we already know Moody's vote, and while Jamin has expressed agreement, he's free to change his mind)? Is Run acceptable for Ruh?

Well, yes, we do know my vote already. But I want to clarify, here. It's not just "obvious." It really has only one possible meaning. Run is also one letter off from Mun (Munich). But Munich can't move to Belgium, and another order was given for Munich (Mun-Bur). No order was given for Ruhr, which really leaves only one conclusion - that A Run-Bel was meant to be A Ruh-Bel.

And again, to clarify, I believe that my opinion is in accordance with the published rules of the game. So I reject the implication in the statement about erring on the side of rules enforcement that my position is opposed to rules enforcement.

Here are the rules exactly as printed:



Each player secretly writes "orders" for each of his/her units on a slip of paper. All players then reveal orders at the same time. Each player reads his/her orders while others make sure that what they hear is what is written. A legal order must be followed. An order written by mistake, if legal, must be followed. An "illegal" or ambiguous order or an order that is judged to be unsuccessful is not followed. A unit that is given an illegal order (or given no order) must stand in place. (The unit holds.) A poorly written order that has only one meaning must be followed.

[Shular]

Okay, okay. I'm nothing if not flexible. I am convinced, and have made changes to the results accordingly. France, sorry about the confusion, but I'm allowing Germany's orders. You'll have a retreat as well as Russia and England.

[Kroy]

Retreat Orders due: Friday, Dec 5th, 23:00
Builds due: Saturday, Dec 5th, 23:00
Spring orders due: Tuesday, Dec 8th, 23:00

Typo! Saturday is the 6th, not the 5th. Yes, I'm that bored...

[Neftren]

***Is England abandoning all in an attempt to take Scandinavia?***
***Is Italy trying to take an undefended Warsaw? Or is he moving towards Austria?***
***Is there a Three way treaty in between Italy, England, and France?***

England will probably continue to play switcheroo with Russia over Sweden and Norway. However, since there is now an army in Norway and fleets in Skag and the Baltic, Sweden will probably fall to the English (again). England for now, seems to be hesitant in fighting Germany.

As for a three way treaty... I don't think that's the case. Just my mild speculation, but I think so far, England, Italy and France are all in the dark as to who is who. Germany is probably one of the newer players to the game... maybe France too. France is busy with Germany... and has to worry about that fleet in the Atlantic.

Speaking of which... and out of curiosity: Who's playing England? Or Italy?

[Kroy]

I'm guessing moody is Italy, but besides that I have no idea

[Jamin]

Germany is probably one of the newer players to the game... maybe France too. Italy?

This newer player happens to be 2nd place and have two wins under his belt it was the older government that made some interesting choices at the start

[Shular]

Typo! Saturday is the 6th, not the 5th. Yes, I'm that bored...
Umm...I'm sure I have NO idea what you're talking about. :smallwink:

[Shular]

Okay, to give France a chance to send in a retreat order (since he may not be paying much attention atm, figuring he had no retreat and no builds), I'm extending the deadline until he sends in the retreat order, or until 6pm Saturday, whichever comes first.

[Kroy]

ugh, another delay...

[Moody the Wise]

I'm guessing moody is Italy, but besides that I have no idea

That's my guess too, oddly enough.

[Kroy]

I just noticed, France could fairly easily take London. Why doe England want Sweden so badly as to risk an invasion?

[Shular]

Retreats:

England: Swe R Bal
Russia: Nwy R Fin
France: Bel R Bel

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/12Builds1903.jpg?t=1228551581

Russia takes Smy from Turkey.
Austria takes Bul from Turkey.
England takes Nwy from Russia.
Germany takes Bel from France.
Russia takes Swe from England.

Turkey disbands 1 unit.
Russia may build 1 unit.
Germany may build 1 unit.
France disbands 1 unit.
Austria may build 1 unit.

Adjustments due as scheduled:
Saturday, Dec 6th, 23:00

[Jamin]

The army is den and the fleet in kie

[Psionic Dog]

My vast precognitive powers tell me there will be a new unit built in Bud and Ber...

[Neftren]

I just noticed, France could fairly easily take London. Why doe England want Sweden so badly as to risk an invasion?

If France moves into the Channel, England can just respond with F Nth to Lon.
As it stands, it looks like England will grab Sweden this turn.

[Jamin]

the scores
In 1st place Russia with 7
2nd Germany with 6
a tie for 3rd between Austria and France at 5
5th is also tied between England and Italy at 4
7th is Turkey with 3

[Kroy]

And yet, in reality, Italy is winning because it is currently n the best position, while Russia is not doing great because he is fighting two wars at once.

[Psionic Dog]

If France moves into the Channel, England can just respond with F Nth to Lon.
As it stands, it looks like England will grab Sweden this turn.

Possibly, but my count puts the score 3-3 for an attempt on Sweden. Either Russia would have to slip up, or England would have to pull some brilliant maneuvers to take Sweden.

However, on the flip side it appears Russia has an even smaller chance of taking Nwy again.

Russia may be struggling to fight two wars at once, but the fact they are even capable of fighting two simultaneous wars could be viewed as proof of their power.

Italy may not be winning, but they are certainly doing very well. They paralyzed France with a single fleet, and might have paralyzed Austria as well with their latest move. This next year could either see Italy suddenly blossom in size, or crumble from over extension.

If we give Russia a -1 penalty for position, and a +1 position bonus to England and Italy, then our score count shows:

Russia and, Germany (tied for 1st)
England, France, Austria, and Italy (tied for 3rd)
Turkey: 7th

Turkey is, unfortunately, in the hot seat, but I see a close game for everyone else.

[Moody the Wise]

Oh stop it ... I will not sit idly by and let you all make Italy out to be such a threat. Sure, I've got some units in dangerous places, but look at my opportunities for expansion. They're terrible. Give me credit for surviving, sure, but don't blow things out of proportion.

[Shular]

6 hour warning!

Don't forget, folks, you have to send in disband orders as well as build orders, otherwise I disband the unit furthest from home centres. (Edit: that's not in a centre itself, if that can be avoided)

[Jamin]

Taking into account new factors I have created the new listings

1st is France yes France just look at how petty that teal looks ,simply dazzling to my eyes. Also they are losing one of those hard to take care of Fleets or Armies could they be in a better place right now I think not.

2nd Turkey who lost not 1 but 2 count em 2 sc in one year because of the cleaver plan of fooling everyone into thinking that they will be the 1st to die.

3rd is a tie between Russia and England look at them letting the swiss and the Norse try both types of governments it is so c. u. t. e. cute

5th is Austria because I needed a 5th guy and Austria has 7 letters in it so seven having 5 letters and five having 4 there really was not much of a choice.

6th is that bad old Kaiser and his foul nation of Germany came in 6th in real life right before Russia so it makes sense

7th is Italy I mean look at his guys they are not even close to each well there are those two in Italy but that won't last for long. Soon he be moving them all over the place taking stuff that does not belong to him

okay for reals just because you think something does not make it not pretend,

[Neftren]

Possibly, but my count puts the score 3-3 for an attempt on Sweden. Either Russia would have to slip up, or England would have to pull some brilliant maneuvers to take Sweden.

However, on the flip side it appears Russia has an even smaller chance of taking Nwy again.

Russia may be struggling to fight two wars at once, but the fact they are even capable of fighting two simultaneous wars could be viewed as proof of their power.

Italy may not be winning, but they are certainly doing very well. They paralyzed France with a single fleet, and might have paralyzed Austria as well with their latest move. This next year could either see Italy suddenly blossom in size, or crumble from over extension.

If we give Russia a -1 penalty for position, and a +1 position bonus to England and Italy, then our score count shows:

Russia and, Germany (tied for 1st)
England, France, Austria, and Italy (tied for 3rd)
Turkey: 7th

Turkey is, unfortunately, in the hot seat, but I see a close game for everyone else.

Well the main dilemma with the English is that they just lacked sufficient manpower to take and hold both Norway and Sweden. England now has four units in the immediate area (Norway, Skag, North Sea and Baltic Sea). England's position is slightly better since they can threaten Sweden and still defend London as well as Norway, leaving the other two units to sweep into Sweden. After that, there could be a potential assault on St. Petersburg (especially if England can get a Fleet into the north coast of StP).

[Shular]

Hey guys. Sorry for the delay. I'm at a friend's place, and her computer doesn't have the Dip adjudicator on it (it DOES have a really bad connection, though).

So I'm going to give the Adjustments here, then update the map when I get home tomorrow morning. Sorry for the delay and confusion.

Austria: Builds army in Bud
Germany: Builds army in Ber
Russia: No order received, leaving 1 unused build
Turkey: No order received, Fleet Aeg disbanded
France: No order received, Fleet Por disbanded

[Shular]

1903 Build Results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/13Spring1904.jpg?t=1228752780

Spring, 1904, orders due:
Tuesday, Dec 9th, 23:00 Hours

However, because of some of the delays and confusion, I'm willing to extend the deadline by 24 hours if anyone requests it. Otherwise, we'll just leave it as stands.

[Shular]

24 hour warning!

[Shular]

The boards were down for a while last night, so, between that and other stuff, deadline extended to tomorrow night or when all orders are in, whichever comes first. Still missing 2 sets of orders.

[Kroy]

Out of curiosity, what program do you use to generate that map?

[Neftren]

Diplo I believe.

[Shular]

Spring 1904 Results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/14Fall1904.jpg?t=1228970063

Russia:
Smy S Bla - Con: OK
Bla - Con: OK
Rum - Gal: OK
Fin S Swe H: OK
Bot S Swe H: OK
Swe H: OK

Italy:
Ven - Pie: OK
Apu - Ven: Bounce with Tri;
Boh - Sil: Bounce with Ber;
MAt - Spa: Bounce with Spa;

Germany:
Bel - Ruh: OK
Ber - Sil: Bounce with Boh;
Hol - Bel: OK
Kie - Hol: OK
Den S Ska - Swe: OK
A mun s a vie-try: Failed...ambiguous. "Try" could be Tri or Tyr

England:
Bal - Lvn: OK
Ska - Swe: Bounce with Swe;
Nwy S Ska - Swe: OK
Nth S Nwy H: OK

Austria:
A Bud S: [F Bla -> Con]: Failed, order for Bud superceded by later order
Ser - Gre: Bounce with Gre;
Vie - Tyr: OK
Bud - Vie: OK
Tri - Ven: Bounce with Apu;

Turkey: NMR

France: NMR

Turkey disbands unit in Con

*** Adjudicated with Diplo 2.8 ***

Well, I gave them as much opportunity as I could to respond (including PMs). The Diplo 2.8 site is here (http://www.geocities.com/bogdanfl/Diplo.html).

Fall 2004 orders due Saturday, December 13th, 23:00 hours.

[Kroy]

When turkey falls, will you tell us who he (or she) was?

[Psionic Dog]

I'm sort of surprised Italy hasn't made a move on England. Liv isn't exactly that well defended from the West...

[Kalirren]

I'd just like to lodge an objection: Yes, miswritten orders fail (e.g. F Por-Spa, no coast specified: to see why it must be interpreted as a hold order, consider what dispute would have resulted in the event of Italy having ordered in the same turn F WMed S F Por-Spa (North).) But again, an order with only one possible meaning must be followed. A Mun S Vie-Try is pretty unambiguous despite the typo. The rationale that the order A Mun S Vie-Try is ambiguous because of Tyrolia and Trieste is bollocks, because Try -must- mean Tyrolia in this case: A Munich cannot support a move to Trieste. It does not border Trieste.

Fortunately, it didn't impact any outcome this round.

Edit: there are still people who don't know who people are? That's very surprising, given that everyone's been given the free identity of Germany. I thought I had things figured out as soon as I saw orders for Spring 1901.

[Shular]

A Mun S Vie-Try is pretty unambiguous despite the typo. The rationale that the order A Mun S Vie-Try is ambiguous because of Tyrolia and Trieste is bollocks, because Try -must- mean Tyrolia in this case: A Munich cannot support a move to Trieste. It does not border Trieste.


I know what you're saying. However, VIE could move to Tyr and Tri, and so either interpretation, while one can not be completed, is still valid.

I should bring up one other point. Miswritten orders are a valid strategy in this game. It is quite possible that one player may promise another to submit a specific order that he or she doesn't want to submit. So they'll INTENTIONALLY miswrite an order, allowing them to say "Sorry friend, I didn't mean to mess up that order," when they DID mean to mess it up. My assuming the intention of an order could, in fact, be contrary to the desires of the player.

This is the main reason that I want to take the orders as literally as possible.

Edit: A similar example is Austria's "A Bud S: [F Bla -> Con]". The obvious assumption would be that he meant "A Bul". However, it's possible that Austria didn't really WANT to support Russia, and so miswrote the order in the hopes that Russia would bounce.

[Moody the Wise]

I know I'm the one who brought it up last time, but seriously guys, let's all just learn to spell and this won't be a problem. Take some pride in the orders you write. Learn the full names of the territories (http://hdwhite.org/diplomacy/StartingNames.gif) so that the abbreviations make sense. Check your orders after you've written them. Heck, if you need a second set of eyes, send them to me before you send them to Shular.

[Kroy]

I know I'm the one who brought it up last time, but seriously guys, let's all just learn to spell and this won't be a problem. Take some pride in the orders you write. Learn the full names of the territories (http://hdwhite.org/diplomacy/StartingNames.gif) so that the abbreviations make sense. Check your orders after you've written them. Heck, if you need a second set of eyes, send them to me before you send them to Shular.

Nice try:smalltongue:

[Shular]

23 hour warning!

[Shular]

Less than 1 hour warning, and still waiting for some orders. Let's get'er done, folks.

[Shular]

Heh, I've got you spoiled. I've got a major headache right now, so I'm going to bed, and will adjudicate the orders first thing upon waking up. Sorry.

[Shular]

Fall Results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/15Fall1904R.jpg?t=1229268714

Russia:
Smy - Ank: OK
Con S Smy - Ank: OK
Gal - War: OK
Bot - StP: Bounce with Lvn;
Swe H: Dislodged by Ska 3:2;
Fin S Swe H: OK

Italy:
Apu - Ven: OK
Pie S Apu - Ven: OK
Boh - Sil: OK
MAt - Por: OK

Germany:
Ber - Pru: OK
Hol - Bel: Bounce with Bel;
Bel - Pic: Bounce with Pic;
Mun S Ruh - Bur: OK
Ruh - Bur: OK
Den S Ska - Swe: OK

England:
Ska - Swe: OK
Lvn - StP: Bounce with Bot;
Nwy S Ska - Swe: OK
Nth S Nwy H: OK

Austria:
Vie H: OK
Tri - Adr: OK
Tyr - Ven: Defeated by Apu 2:1;
Bul - Gre: OK
Ser S Bul - Gre: OK

France: NMR

Turkey: NMR

Turkey may retreat army in Ank to: Arm

France may retreat army in Bur to: Par Mar

Turkey may retreat army in Gre to: Alb

Russia disbands unit in Swe

*** Adjudicated with Diplo 2.8 ***

France and Turkey have NMR'd twice in a row, so I will adjudicate their retreats/disbanding. Thus, all three disband, leaving:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/16Builds1904.jpg?t=1229269101

Russia takes Ank from Turkey.
Russia takes Con from Turkey.
Austria takes Gre from Turkey.
England takes Swe from Russia.
Italy takes Por from France.

Russia may build 3 units.
Italy may build 1 unit.
England may build 1 unit.
Austria may build 1 unit.

If France shows up and wants to dispute this decision, he has until build due date to do so, in which case he'll have to tell me where he wants to retreat to and which unit he wants to disband.

Builds due Monday, December 15th, NOON (12:00)!
(Note the time!)

[Jamin]

I think we should look for a new France

[Shular]

I think we should look for a new France

I've sent a couple PM invitations out, but so far no response. If you know someone who would be interested in joining, please have them contact me. In fairness to the new player, I'll divulge who is playing what to him or her.

[Kroy]

Since Turkey is defeated, will you tell us who was turkey?

[Shular]

Since Turkey is defeated, will you tell us who was turkey?

Heh, anyone want to guess?

[Kroy]

Either Daniel M or Aergoth.

[Shular]

Either Daniel M or Aergoth.

Perhaps. :smallwink:

I have found a replacement France. I'm sure he'll begin contacting you shortly.

[Psionic Dog]

Either Daniel M or Aergoth.

I've believed Aergoth to be the Turkish leader since Fall 1901.
It'll be somewhat embarising to me if they aren't. :smallredface:

Anyway,
Dear France, whoever you are, apparently you have the advantage of knowing distinctly who all of us are. Most of us have guesses (sometimes correct guesses) on who the others are, but very few of us are completely confident in our lists. Don't be too quick to give up that slim edge.

Anyway I (apparently you'll know what country I am) wish to offer you cardinal greetings, peace, and friendship.

[Moody the Wise]

Well, I know Aergoth isn't Italy, and my first assumption was also that he was Turkey.

[Shular]

1904 Build Results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/17Spring1905.jpg?t=1229372078

Austria builds Fleet Trieste: OK

Italy builds Fleet Naples: OK

England builds Fleet London: OK

Russia bulds Fleet St. Petersburg (SC): OK
Russia builds Army Moscow: OK
Russia builds Fleet Smyrna: Fails...units can only be built in home supply centers.

Spring 1905 orders due
Thursday, December 18th, 23:00 hours

[Abelard]

Mu-hu-hwa-hwa-hwa!!

{Oh, dear, that was a terrible evil laugh. I'll try again.}

Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!

{Eh, better.}

Now it can be told - it was I controlling Turkey all along! From the shadows!! When I missed the game entry, I convinced someone to let me play through them, and I've been calling the shots all along. Well, except for all the bad moves, of course - those were mixed signals, and I had nothing to do with those. Nor the NMRs; oh the many NMRs!! But those one or two really good ones were all mine.

Oddly enough, being eliminated now gives me a certain amount of freedom in this game. Truly liberating. I've decided to step into the game directly now that Turkey is eliminated, how deliciously ironic.

Moody, good to be able to talk to you directly again, always a pleasure. Your cries of "positional poverty" were amusing. Granted, you may be trading your homeland for France/Spain... I tried to convince my pawn that you could be trusted, but it fell on deaf ears.

As none of the rest of you have publicly outed yourselves, I won't make any other comments at this time. But you have all made this game fun, so thanks.

[Psionic Dog]

Marvelous, more maniacal Machiavellian Master Minds mocking mediocre monotonous managers may make momentous monologues much more meaningful! :smallbiggrin:

[Abelard]

Magnificent!

[Shular]

24 hour warning!

Unless Abelard would prefer an extension, of course.

[Abelard]

OK, Shular, that's just mean. Why would Turkey need an extension?

Talk about kicking a Sultan when he's down... :o(

[Shular]

3.5 hour warning!!

[Kroy]

Wait, aren't orders due Thursday, not today?

[Shular]

Wait, aren't orders due Thursday, not today?
HAH! Psyche! Of course they're due Thursday. That's what I posted, isn't it? Boy oh boy, you should have seen your faces.

Hahahaha :smallredface:

(okay, so I got the due date confused with the game I'm playing in, honest mistake, no need to be mean about it :smallfrown:)

[Shular]

Now is just over 2 hour warning. The boards were a little laggy today (they seem better now), but most orders are in, so we'll see what's what at the deadline.

[Shular]

This is a really confusing game. Anyway...Spring 1905 reslts:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/18Fall1905.jpg?t=1229662420

Russia:
Con - Aeg: OK
Ank - Arm: OK
War H: OK
Mos S War H: OK
StP S Fin H: OK
Bot S Fin H: OK
Fin H: OK

Italy:
Por - Spa: Bounce with Spa;
Pie - Mar: Bounce with Gas;
Ven H: OK
Nap - Apu: Bounce with Adr;
Sil - Ber: Bounce with Pru;

Germany:
Bur - Gas: Bounce with Gas;
Mun - Bur: Bounce with Bur;
Bel S Lon - Eng: Void;
Hol laughs maniacally: OK
Den - Kie: OK
Pru - Ber: Bounce with Sil;

France:
Bre - MAt: OK
Spa S Bre - MAt: Cut by Por;
Pic - Par: OK
Gas - Mar: Bounce with Pie;

Austria:
Tyr - Pie: Bounce with Pie;
Vie - Tyr: Bounce with Tyr;
Adr - Apu: Bounce with Nap;
Tri - Adr: Bounce with Adr;
Ser - Tri: Bounce with Tri;
Gre - Ser: Bounce with Ser;

England: NMR

No retreats.

Fall 1905 orders due
Sunday, Dec 21st, 23:00

I'd also like to hear from people about what sort of break over the holidays we should take.

[Psionic Dog]

:eek:

That... that was a lot of bounces.

[Kroy]

Russia had zero bounces, while everybody else had at least one (just look at Austria!).

[Kalirren]

Looks like France is in pretty good shape. England seems to like playing the NMR. Russia ought to be more aggressive.

Why hasn't that rogue Italian army been destroyed yet?!
I like the arranged bounce in Berlin.
Austria, Austria, Austria...too fancy. Could have just walked into Venice. But no...

[Neftren]

England had a slight issue with their orders not reaching their appropriate destination(s).
If you haven't guessed already by now; Yes, I am England.

[Moody the Wise]

I'd also like to hear from people about what sort of break over the holidays we should take.

I'm good with continuing at our current pace. There might be days when I'm not on, but nothing too prolonged, and I'll just get orders in early.

[Shular]

So noted. I, on the other hand, will be spending days visiting family, and have no access to my computer. Speaking of which, I won't be home from tomorrow until Monday night, so while orders are technically due Sunday night, I'll accept any orders that have come in up until the time I start adjudicating.

[Shular]

Fall 1905 Results:

Anarchy in Italy (sorry, but I triple checked, just like I did for England the season before, but could not find any orders :smallfrown:).

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/19Fall1905R.jpg?t=1229980545

Russia (again, please watch the spelling in your oders):
Arm - Sev: OK
Mos - StP: OK
StP - Lvn: OK
Fin S Mos - StP: Cut by Nwy; Dislodged by Nwy 2:1;
War S StP - Lvn: OK
Bot S StP - Lvn: OK
Aeg S Adr - Ion: OK

Germany:
Bel - Eng: OK
Hol - Bel: OK
Kie - Ruh: OK
Mun shakes its booty: OK
Pru - Ber: OK
Bur S Pie - Mar: Void;

France:
Spa - Por: OK
MAt S Spa - Por: OK
Par - Bur: Bounce with Bur;
Gas - Mar: OK

England:
Lon - Nth: OK
Nth - Nwy: OK
Lvn - StP: Defeated by StP 3:1; Dislodged by StP 3:1;
Swe S Nwy - Fin: OK
Nwy - Fin: OK

Austria:
Tyr - Ven: OK
Tri S Tyr - Ven: OK
Vie - Tyr: OK
Adr - Ion: OK
Ser H: OK
Gre H: OK

England may retreat fleet in Lvn to: Bal Pru

Russia disbands unit in Fin

Italy may retreat army in Ven to: Tus Rom Apu

Italy disbands unit in Por

Retreats due: Dec 23rd, 18:00
Builds due: Dec 24th, 23:00 (Is that okay Abelard?)
Spring, 1906 orders due: Monday December 29th, 23:00
(I've had a request for an extension due to being away for holidays. If anyone else has time concerns, please speak up now).

[Moody the Wise]

I'll have A Ven disband, please

[Shular]

Retreats:
Italian army Venice disbands
English fleet Livonia retreats to the Baltic Sea

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/20Builds1905.jpg?t=1230049119

Austria takes Ven from Italy.
France takes Por from Italy.

Russia may build 1 unit.
France may build 1 unit.
Austria may build 1 unit.

Build orders due:
Dec. 24th, 23:00

Now that will be Christmas Eve, so I suggest you send the build orders in sooner rather than later, since you never know what might come up.

Also, I will be away from my home computer (end hence the Diplo adjudicator) until Sunday, so I will simply post the builds without a map.

If there are any concerns about the above, please let me know.

[Abelard]

As most of you have figured out by now, I've taken over for France. So in that joie de vivre spirit, from our nation to yours, we wish you Joyeux Noel.

...aaaaand that's about all the French I know!

I'm away through Sunday 12/28, so your pleas for mercy from the mighty French military onslaught will fall on (temporarily) deaf ears.

[Shular]

1.5 hour warning!

However, I'm going to bed early because my nephew will wake me up early for Christmas, so I'll be posting results tomorrow (and I will take submissions up until I post).


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

and/or


HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

[Kroy]

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Shular]

Builds 1905:

Austria builds Army Vienna
France builds Fleet Brest
Russia builds Army Moscow

Best wishes.

Spring 1906 orders due
Monday December 29th, 23:00

This will, hopefully, give Abelard time to negotiate. I'll try to get a new map up before the due date.

[Shular]

Et voila...

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/21Spring1906.jpg?t=1230509090

[Shular]

This is your
22 hour warning!

[Shular]

3 hour (give or take) warning!

[Shular]

Spring 1906 results: All orders recieved! No NMRs! Good job guys. :smallsmile:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/22Fall1906.jpg?t=1230611608

Russia:
Aeg H: OK
Sev - Ukr: OK
War H: OK
Mos S StP H: OK
StP H: OK
Lvn S Bot H: OK
Bot S StP H: Cut by Swe;

Italy:
Pie - Tus: OK
Nap - Ion: Bounce with Ion;
Sil - Gal: OK

Germany:
Eng H: OK
Bel S Eng H: OK
Bur - Pic: OK
Ruh - Bur: OK
Mun S Ruh - Bur: OK
Ber - Pru: OK

France:
Bre S Por - MAt: OK
Por - MAt: OK
MAt - NAt: OK
Par - Gas: Bounce with Mar;
Mar - Gas: Bounce with Par;

England:
Swe - Bot: Bounce with Bot;
Bal S Swe - Bot: OK
Nwy - Bar: OK
Nth - Nwy: OK
Fin - StP: Bounce with StP;

Austria:
Ven - Rom: OK
Tyr - Ven: OK
Tri - Adr: OK
Gre - Ion - Tun: OK
Ion C Gre - Tun: OK

*** Adjudicated with Diplo 2.8 ***

No retreats.

Fall 1906 orders due:
Thursday, January 1st, 23:00
(unless an extension is needed...please let me know)

[Kroy]

Oooooooooohhhhhhhh, Italy looks all Christmassy!:smalltongue:

[Kroy]

OK, now time for some moderately more serious battle analysis...

The future of the game seems to rely on one thing. Can Russia hold out for another turn? If the tzar's forces can hold back the Anglo-German attack this turn, then then France will take England, forcing them to demolish army after army, and not letting them build any new ones. With England out of the picture, Germany will be taken by a combined Russian, Austrian, French force.

However, If England takes StP, then then they can build an army in Edin, enough to hold the French at bay for a turn. They can then steamroll onto Moscow, and head south then west from there. The will win in the end, with England, Scandinavia, Russia, and Turkey under their control. Without having to fight Russia the Germans can focus their complete energy into France. It might take a few years, but the Anglo-German forces will win if the take StP.

[Kalirren]

What a strange turn of events in the Atlantic.

I really don't see how Russia is supposed to hold StP, though. I can't find a defense that holds against the English orders

Nwy, Bar S Fin -> StP
Swe-Bot
Bal-Lvn

Germany had better watch out. Those English fleets only really have one or two places to go after the Scandinavian campaign.

[Shular]

Per request, the deadline is extended 24 hours. Fall 1906 orders now due:
Friday, January 2nd, 23:00

Happy New Year!!

[Shular]

This is your 12 hour warning!

[Neftren]

What a strange turn of events in the Atlantic.

I really don't see how Russia is supposed to hold StP, though. I can't find a defense that holds against the English orders

Nwy, Bar S Fin -> StP
Swe-Bot
Bal-Lvn

Germany had better watch out. Those English fleets only really have one or two places to go after the Scandinavian campaign.

I can assure you that England's fleets will remain in the Baltic and Scandinavian regions (unless I am engaged by the French) after the Russian campaign. Perhaps they'll even return home for a bit.

[Abelard]

"Engaged"? I hardly know ya!

<rimshot>
Thank you, thank you; I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

[Shular]

Fall 1906 results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/23Fall1906R.jpg?t=1230960113

Russia:
Ukr - Rum: Bounce with Gal;
Mos - War: OK
War - Sil: OK
Bot - Fin: OK
Lvn - Bot: Bounce with Swe; Dislodged by Bal 2:1;
StP "Surrenders to the English Force": Dislodged by Fin 3:1;

Italy:
Gal - Rum: Bounce with Ukr;
Tus H: OK
Nap H: Dislodged by Ion 2:1;

Germany:
Bur - Par: Bounce with Par;
Pic S Bur - Par: OK
Eng - Bre: Bounce with Bre;
Mun - Bur: Bounce with Bur;
Pru S Bal - Lvn: OK
Bel - Eng: Bounce with Eng;

France:
NAt - Liv: OK
MAt S Bre H: OK
Bre H: OK
Par - Bur: Bounce with Bur;
Mar S Par - Bur: OK

England:
Fin - StP: OK
Bar S Fin - StP: OK
Nwy S Fin - StP: OK
Swe - Bot: Bounce with Lvn;
Bal - Lvn: OK

Austria:
Ion - Nap: OK
Rom S Ion - Nap: OK
Ven - Tus: Bounce with Tus;
Adr - Ion: OK
Vie - Bud: Bounce with Ser;
Ser - Bud: Bounce with Vie;

Russia may retreat army in StP to: Mos

Italy may retreat fleet in Nap to: Apu Tyn

Russia disbands unit in Lvn

Retreats due Saturday, January 3rd, 23:00
Builds due Sunday, January 4th, 23:00

[Kroy]

Russia surrenders it's second largest city and falls back to Moscow (A StP R Mos). If it hasn't been obvious who I am, reread all my posts.

[Neftren]

Just curious... isn't Liverpool, England supposed to be Lvp and not Liv on the map?

[Moody the Wise]

Just curious... isn't Liverpool, England supposed to be Lvp and not Liv on the map?

Yeah, on most maps it is abbreviated as Lvp to distinguish it from Livonia, which is abbreviated as Lvn for the same reason. These are the 'canon' abbreviations which appear on the actual game board (http://hdwhite.org/diplomacy/StartingNames.gif) (note: abbreviations are only listed for territories whose abbreviations are NOT simply the first three letters of the territory name).

But ... oh well.

[Shular]

1 hour warning.

Still waiting on Italy's retreat.

[Moody the Wise]

Er, right. Just disband it, because it's going bye-bye in the winter anyway.

[Neftren]

Yeah, on most maps it is abbreviated as Lvp to distinguish it from Livonia, which is abbreviated as Lvn for the same reason. These are the 'canon' abbreviations which appear on the actual game board (http://hdwhite.org/diplomacy/StartingNames.gif) (note: abbreviations are only listed for territories whose abbreviations are NOT simply the first three letters of the territory name).

But ... oh well.

Okay, so it's not just me going crazy. Whew, good to know. Anyway... good playing with you Moody. Maybe things will turn out differently next time. I regret having never fought an open war with you... or against you.

[Shular]

Retreat results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/24Builds1906.jpg?t=1231043267

England takes StP from Russia.
Austria takes Nap from Italy.
Austria takes Rom from Italy.
France takes Liv from England.
Austria takes Tun from Italy.

Russia may build 1 unit.
Italy disbands 2 units.
Austria may build 2 units.

Italy has no centers, so both units will disband.

Builds due Sunday January 4th, 23:00

Spring 1907 orders due Wed. Jan. 7th, 23:00

[Moody the Wise]

I regret having never fought an open war with you... or against you.

Oh, it's fun alright ... just ask Shular. :smalltongue:

[Kroy]

Russia builds an army in Sev.

Edit: Italy Defeated! Let me guess, was it Moody?

[Psionic Dog]

Austria builds armies in both Bud and Tri.

Yep, I'm Austria. I figure by now everyone already knows that, particularly since everyone else has already announced their own identities.

No point in trying to keep an expired secret eh? :smalltongue:

[Kroy]

England is doomed.Do you remember my previous analysis of the war? Well I "forgot" to include the fact that the loss from Liv cancels out the gain from StP. Now, the English cannot build a unit to defend it's homeland. And, they can't conquer any more of Russia because they have a single army, and all of remaining Russian are either land locked, or protected by France and Austria.

[Kalirren]

Interesting. I was expecting better tactics from the Germans in France. The way the units were actually ordered, it looks like a de facto stab on England.

Not that I blame Germany, of course. The Franco-German alliance is more valuable in the long run because of Marseilles.

In the long run I think my money is on the Austrians. They're done dealing with Italy and Turkey, and Russia's -still- committed in the north. Good job, Psionic Dog. Allies from the beginning!

[Neftren]

England is doomed.Do you remember my previous analysis of the war? Well I "forgot" to include the fact that the loss from Liv cancels out the gain from StP. Now, the English cannot build a unit to defend it's homeland. And, they can't conquer any more of Russia because they have a single army, and all of remaining Russian are either land locked, or protected by France and Austria.

England is hardly doomed. Austria is doing very well, and Russia will soon cave against Austria (should Austria go East). A Franco-German Alliance wouldn't do much at this point and really would only hurt the Germans (who are already close to winning against France). If Austria pushes West, France will collapse. Germany gets to hide behind Switzerland while Russia gets crushed from three sides.

Should the Germans choose to betray the English, for every supply center they take from me, I can take one or more of their home territories in return. I'm not saying that I'll do that since I'd much rather be fighting the French or the Russians, but from a strategic standpoint, France and Germany doesn't achieve much (assuming they do negotiate something). Germany has spent the majority of its time and effort fighting France and now he's wedged his foot in the door. We just need to see if he can force the door open now.

[Abelard]

Really? Germany takes London, you get DEN. Next year, the F/G takes EDI and he can still hold the rest of his dots from you. So even if you take some more centers somewhere, you can't build.

So, while I wouldn't say England is doomed, I would go so far as to say this is a very interesting juncture of the game.

[Shular]

Since you folks seem confident about the builds, I'll post the new map now to give you a little more tinme for discussions.

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/25Spring1907.jpg?t=1231114973

Spring 1907 ordes due: Wed, Jan. 7, 23:00

I'd love to throw some of my own opinions into the discussion, but as the judge, I must remain neutral (and not give anyone any ideas, or spoil possible strategies).

[Shular]

This is your 21 hour warning!

[Shular]

Spring 1907 results:

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/26Spring1907R.jpg?t=1231424668

Russia:
Aeg - Con: OK
Sil - Ber: Bounce with Pru;
War - Lvn: OK
Fin - Bot: OK
Mos S War - Lvn: OK
Ukr S Mos H: OK
Sev S Mos H: OK

Germany:
Bur - Gas: OK
Mun - Bur: OK
Pru - Ber: Bounce with Sil;
Pic H: OK
Bel S Pic H: OK
Eng - Iri: OK

France:
Liv - Wal: OK
MAt S Bre - Eng: OK
Bre - Eng: OK
Par - Bre: OK
Mar S Bur H: Void;

Austria:
Vie - Boh: OK
Bud - Vie: OK
Ven - Tyr: OK
Rom - Ven: OK
Ser H: OK
Tri H: OK
Nap H: OK
Ion C Tun - Apu: OK
Tun - Ion - Apu: OK

England: NMR

England may retreat fleet in Lvn to: Bal

Retreat order due Thursday, January 8, 23:00
Fall 1907 orders due Sunday, January 11, 23:00

[Psionic Dog]

French prepare for London Invasion!

Germans Smash French Defenses! Paris Guards Desert.

Austria Annexes Munich! Troops sent to impose order.

Scandinavian Tide Shifts! Russians begin to retake lost ground.

English Government Evacuates London! Orders lost in resulting anarchy.

This has been a *most* interesting spring.

France is dying by German hands, but appears ready to drag England down with them.

England is dying by French hands, and there isn't much they can do. England's ridding the Russian Bear, if they try to move their troops they'll get eaten. Even a stab on Germany wouldn't save them: The troop shift would let the Russians advance again, and without a German check the French would overrun the English.

I could be wrong, but I suspect we'll see one or two more players eliminated before the game ends. So, even though a English -> German stab would seal England's fait, it would also doom German to an even earlier premature end, and thus leave England as one of the final four... possibly reason enough to make the futile stab.

I suspect these next few turns will be *very* interesting.

[Kalirren]

Oh, that's funny. I've never seen anyone play the NMR like Neftren does. Well done. England plays the NMR and lets Russia stab Germany for him.Isn't it great?

How long is the Russo-Austrian alliance going to last? At this rate I wouldn't be surprised to see Germany be the only country eliminated for a 4-way EFAR draw.

France is far from lost, and Germany's in a fix. Paris may be vacant, but the only guaranteed center to be lost is Mar, and that comes at the cost of Munich; of course, the only way Munich will be held is if the Russians cooperate and stab Austria. Since France has an extra build anyway, I don't know what's going to happen if Mar falls, especially since Austria is moving against Germany. I expect Ven-Pie in that case.

[Neftren]

Okay I swear I sent in orders last night.

[Abelard]

News from the French wires...

Troops charged with defending the capital city elected to protect the shores of the Bay of Biscay instead. "If we're going to die," one lieutenant remarked, "then let it be on the beach, watching the sun set with a glass of Burgun... whoops, we don't own that anymore... with a glass of Champag... whoops, not that, either. OK, then - Sangria for all!"

Since we have much better control over our surf than our turf, our engineers are considering the possibility of moving the entire French population onto floating apartments. The appalling English term of "houseboat" has become all the rage.

Military psychologists have confirmed that the Germans have contracted the virulent malorder that seems to be plaguing the continent. Called "Defensive Cow Disease", the scientists say that it started in England, took root in France, and has now spread east. The symptoms are a keen focus on offense, leaving little or nothing at home to defend from an imminent and predictable attack except some cows. England may succumb to it, while French immunologists are feverishly trying to devise a cure. Will it come too late to save our Tuetonic neighbors?

[Shular]

Okay I swear I sent in orders last night.

I triple checked, Neftren. I even delayed processing until the morning, just in case. Did you check your "Sent Items" folder? I assure you I did not see any orders. :smallfrown:

[Shular]

Sigh. No retreat orders received. English fleet Lvn disbands. Map remains the same.

Fall 1907 orders due Sunday, January 11, 23:00
Belay that. Neftren's PMs seem to not be getting to me, so I'd like to resolve this issue before continuing. I will likely allow the retreat order, unless there are objections from anybody else.

[Kroy]

Well it would screw me over. However, from a unbiased view, he should get the retreat.

[Shular]

Well, I don't know what's going on. Neftren is either not PMing me, or I'm just not getting the messages. I will allow the retreat, but since he doesn't seem interested in helping me figure out why I'm not getting some of his messages (but am getting others), going forward I will have to go by what I have at the deadline. Speaking of which...

Fall 1907 deadline extended (due to uncertainty) to Sunday, 23:00.

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/27Fall1907.jpg?t=1231563721

[Neftren]

I sent you a reply yesterday... did you get it?

[thewamp]

For all you folks in Subterfuge, here's another game if you're willing.

Intrigue! Betrayal! Wacky, entertaining fun! You'll find it all in a new diplomacy game where the world is dimmer. So dim, in fact, you can't see the very map of the world. But don't let that stop you. Come join the game, here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101761)

I'm trying something new this time. I'm going to, should interest hold, run a blind game, but with a spying rule. We'll see how this works.

[Shular]

I sent you a reply yesterday... did you get it?

The last response I got from you was:

Retreating. For some reason, none of my orders seem to be getting to you because I sent you one that said I was retreating...

But then I immediately responded (at 1:35 pm) with:

Are you finding the messages in your "Sent Item" folder? Are you having lag issues with the site? I think it's important that we figure out why I'm not getting your orders but am getting other PMs from you.

And you never responded to that.

[Shular]

This is your 24 hour warning!

[Neftren]

I think I've figured it out. None of my PMs go through whenever I use the School Networks.

[Shular]

Neftren, orders received! I think you're right about the school issue. Must be a security issue.

Fall 1907 results!

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/Shular67/28Builds1907.jpg?t=1231737447

Russia:
Con - Aeg: OK
Sev - Ukr: OK
Ukr - War: OK
Mos S Ukr - War: OK
Lvn S Ukr - War: OK
Bot - Swe: OK
Sil - Ber: Bounce with Pru;

Germany:
Pru - Ber: Bounce with Sil;
Bur - Mar: OK
Gas S Bur - Mar: OK
Pic - Bur: OK
Bel - Pic: OK
Iri - Liv: Bounce with Wal;

France:
Mar - Spa: OK
MAt S Bre H: OK
Bre H: OK
Wal - Liv: Bounce with Iri;
Eng - Lon: OK

England:
Swe - Den: OK
Bal - Kie: OK
Bar S StP H: OK
Nwy S StP H: OK
StP H: OK

Austria:
Ser H: OK
Nap H: OK
Ion H: OK
Tyr - Mun: OK
Boh S Tyr - Mun: OK
Ven - Tyr: OK
Vie H: OK
Apu - Ven: OK
Tri - Alb: OK

Amazingly, there are no retreats! Therefore...

Germany takes Mar from France.
Austria takes Mun from Germany.
England takes Kie from Germany.
England takes Den from Germany.
France takes Lon from England.
Russia takes Swe from England.

Russia may build 1 unit.
Germany disbands 2 units.
France may build 1 unit.
Austria may build 2 units.

Winter, 1907 Adjustments due Monday, 23:00
Spring, 1908 Orders due Thursday, 23:00

[Shular]

Oh, and I would just like to add...this is a WEIRD game! :smallbiggrin:

[Jamin]

Well I would say that I am shocked but I really not. I always choose the wrong allies in these games anyway.

[Abelard]

I'll make my build publicly, as a public service:

Build Army Paris

Totally unexpected, I know! Final answer.

[Jamin]

I will disband F iri and A gas

[Kroy]

Build A Sev