Support Relationship Woes & Advice, Sex (6, you dirty minds!) [Archive] - Page 3

skywalker

2008-12-02, 01:47 AM

Hi. I have a pretty broad problem...I've been single for 5 years now, and have only ever been in one relationship. At this point, I feel like...the whole "game" thing? I don't even know the rules. I don't know where to start. I'm utterly oblivious, and I'm tired of being single. Any advice on how to start back in after being out of it for so long? I feel I must mention what is the major detractor, I feel (having read some of Serp's sig links :smallsmile: ) to my chances...I'm in a wheelchair. I'm not totally crippled; I can get out of the chair for short distances, but in public I'm in the chair. This means a few things:
1. It's hard to dress really nicely since I have a manual chair and nice, long-sleeved clothes tend to drag on the wheels and get all muddy and gross (I live in a perpetually dusty/muddy state, thanks to the constant wind).
2. A good rule is not to draw attention to my own problems, right? Sort of a hard trick to pull off while in a wheel chair...:smallannoyed:
3. I don't own a car, and there is no public transportation in this part of the world. This makes it difficult, if not impossible, to "go out" and find someone.
4. Being in the chair, having to look up to people, is a small blow to my confidence, and my confidence already sucks.
I have many other character flaws (acne, shy, huge nerd, a little on the serious side), but I've been trying to work them out. For instance, not having my default look be a scowl, being honest and forthright about questions pertaining to my health instead of evasive or agitated like I used to be, and wearing a (imo) badass leather coat everywhere since it seems impervious to mud are a few steps I've taken. But it seems like in 5 years there hasn't been more than maybe one girl who was even remotely maybe sorta interested in me. What am I missing? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Well, I'll spoil my advice since you spoiled your request.
Hmmm. On the subject of being in a (manual) wheelchair, have you seen those chairs Dean Kamen makes? The one they call Fred(for "Fred Upstairs," a-ha-ha-ha...)? Not that I'm implying you would need a powered chair, or help going upstairs, but just that it seems like one of those would solve two of your problems. (since that chair also can lift you up to eye level with others. I think that thing is so damned cool.) I'm not implying this is an actual solution tho, I'm just mentioning an anecdote.

An interesting question, is it better to be in a manual wheelchair (which, when you think about it, implies more physical capability than a powered chair), or a powered one, which at first glance people tend to respect more? I wonder how we got there.

In any case, back to the advice. Have you considered rolling up the sleeves on nice shirts?

Now, I think if we really want to get down to it, the chair is a slight disadvantage in one way. Because, biologically speaking, you're not as sexually attractive as a guy who can walk everywhere(at least, not to girls without complexes. And I don't think you want to be her baby. You sound like you don't, anyway). That's just instincts. I mean this in the purely physical sense, no discrimination intended.

I think getting rid of the acne could be a major step.

Finally, I don't think being in a chair says "I have problems!" as much as you think. I think if you don't let it define you, other people will be hard pressed to do so as well. Look at Stephen Hawking. People think of him as "that really smart physicist who's severely disabled." The "severely disabled" comes after the "really smart physicist." I'd keep that in mind.

JeminiZero

2008-12-02, 02:16 AM

Just as a heads up, in a lot of places (including here) "going out" means dating.
Unless you know that... and think SO's commonly start dating outside their relationship. Could be, I guess.

As long as you all know what I meant.:smallsmile:

I've always been an awesome gift-giver.

Hello there! How would you like to befriend a fellow playgrounder who could use some nice presents for Christmas. :smallbiggrin:

@Skywalker

Plus, he's a very similar guy to me. I've done things like he did in the past with other girls(I'm not proud).

So... does that mean in the past you tried to chase girls who were almost attached to another friend of yours?

She also told me that the boy had in fact hit on her via text/phone(I can't remember which) last night, and she told him that had to stop. This also made me happy.

Well, good to hear she is standing up for herself. If that doesn't deter him (and it would not surprise me if he continued regardless), I think it would not be unreasonable to ask her to try and cut-off/minimize contact with this guy (ask, don't demand). Let her know that while you trust her, you don't trust him, especially since he is essentially betraying you by pulling off something like this. It helps that you have established this:

We have both established that that is inappropriate behavior. Girls aren't allowed to do that with me and guys aren't allowed to do that with her. I don't know how much more established you can get.

So if you have a guy who keeps trying to do that to her, even after she says no, then she might probably have to take it a step further and keep away from the guy.

But honestly, if she's going to cheat, you can't stop her no matter how much you try- it's a hard thing to come to terms with that I'm still trying to do. You can come to a compromise and trust she'll stick to it, you can just try to deal with it, or you can end it.

Unfortunate but true. As the saying goes, if you don't have trust, you don't have anything. Try your best to get this out of the way as soon as possible, and then return to your happy lives to remind her why she chose you over him.

Someone could be wonderful in every other way, but if I knew they were a flirt, I couldn't do it. To me there is a difference between flirting and friendly, and that's intention. I'm a very friendly person, but I don't flirt. Flirting implies romantic attraction which is being acted upon, albiet (hopefully) not physically, and giving someone those signals is not cool in my book.

I agree with Syka, unintended flirting can easily create unnecessary misunderstanding and heartbreak.

Coidzor

2008-12-02, 02:59 AM

@^: Especially since it means people view the idea of you having an actual interest in them as something akin to contracting the plague or having a zombie notice them through the window they were looking through to see if the coast was clear.

Such is the penalty of the crime of being flirtacious or even being viewed as a flirt with sexuality:
So apparently not only did she not intend to be understood in that way when she told me to kiss the first pretty girl I saw, it's now official that her circle of friends (who I met her through, and was under the impression that at least a few of 'em were my friends) is officially skeezed(skeeved? skived?) out at me for having tried to spend more time with them due to having never really gotten to hang out with them due to my ex's behavior. I didn't even try to force myself into get-togethers of theirs where I wasn't invited. And to think I crossdressed for these people's entertainment. :smallfurious:

Hell, I didn't even actually ask any of them out. And I guess it's a good thing I didn't if I am such a monster that my presence being felt more often was such a creepy and horrible thing to have happen. I am filled with vitriol, as you can probably tell. The worst thing is that they all either live above me or their rooms are on my way to class. So of course I'd think of them and occasionally knock on their doors to see what was up with them. Bloody apartment-style dorms...

So, should I just ignore them unless one of them approaches me or should I delete them from all of my contacts and ignore them completely?

Sub_Zero

2008-12-02, 05:39 AM

Last I heard it was 1/4 abusive relationships for women and 1/7 for men, but I might've heard wrong.

JeminiZero

2008-12-02, 05:50 AM

@Coidzor

it's now official that her circle of friends (who I met her through, and was under the impression that at least a few of 'em were my friends) is officially skeezed(skeeved? skived?) out at me for having tried to spend more time with them

Are you sure that is the reason for them being cheesed off? Might you have done something else to collectively offend them (like forcibly kissing a certain someone)? Try talking to them to see what is the reason behind their sudden collective dislike.

Edit: That might have sounded a little judgemental, but it strikes me that if her group of friends (and only her group), suddenly starts shunning you shortly after you pulled off that stunt on her, then it is likely that the stunt is the cause.

So, should I just ignore them unless one of them approaches me or should I delete them from all of my contacts and ignore them completely?

If people don't enjoy your company, and/or you don't enjoy theirs, then simply keep away from them. Assuming they really don't like you, then yes, you could try ignoring them, although I wouldn't take it too far. Don't look them up anymore, but wave at them if you meet on the streets.

Felixaar

2008-12-02, 05:50 AM

Hi Vella. I find volume helps. Now that there's at least (and that's not even counting minor crushes) three women I definitely want and definitely can't have, well, the individual sting just isn't so bad any more. :smallcool:

This perhaps the most well spoken advice e'er handed down in these threads, right up there with the time Re-orith recommended winning over a girls heart by 'venitalting' the rest of the competition whilst on a friendly fishing trip. Well done, Sir.

Vella, Unrequite Attractions are unfortunately just another part of life. Don't worry, sooner or later you will get past it and find someone else, and sooner or later on it will work out - so long as you don't give up :smallsmile: stay strong.

Decadence, Don't worry too much about how it is now - you've got something, which is a lot more than most people do. You should just enjoy it for what it is. Ofcourse, an important part of having something is making sure you don't loose it - so long as the two of you catch up fairly often and enjoy that time together, that's whats important. If it really bothers you, talk to him about it and you should be able to work something out. Don't be afraid to let out your feelings, either. As far as romantic things to do go... I don't really know, to be honest - depends on what kind of person he is. Just don't be afraid to act out in order to be romantic.

Skywalker, If you can't trust the girl not to do something behind your back... well, can you really be with her? You have to be able to really trust someone in a relationship, beyond anything else. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be firm with the other guy, but you should be able to know that she wouldn't betray you no matter what. If not... well, then I suppose you have to consider somethings, don't you? Best of luck, mate.

Silence, my good buddy, try not to get so hung up over this. Don't worry, things will pass. Don't worry too much about it. I don't know what other advice I can give you. Believe me, I understand, but a lot of us have been through things like this before, and sooner or later we all come through.

Frigs, *checks pulse* ...Yeah, you'll live. NEXT!

Slayer, Pfft, he'll live. And if he's looking for some ways to repay you for your gift giving, well, you could always make some suggestions. I kid, though that's not actually that bad an idea. Look, you told us yourself you like to do it because he runs such a good campaign, so why not just tell him that?

Thes, *pulls over and gives a biiiiiiig hug* you're not any of those things, and tea is a vile drink (prove me wrong!). Now you know what to watch out for, you're gunna be fine :smallsmile:

Hawk, that's a hard situation you find yourself in, buddy. I don't really know what I can say... perhaps you should try an internet dating site or a personal ad? I know it sounds pretty depressing but it's probably the best
way of getting your face out there. Don't worry, just remain optomistic - you seem like a pretty nice guy to me, so I'm sure you'll find someone :smallsmile:

Coid, don't ignore them completely but don't worry about them too much. Although we're not supposed to say it out loud, girls can be pretty stupid sometimes, and hurtful - believe me, the less you care, the easier it is, but that's not always a good thing - a mans ability to keep going back for more when he keeps getting dished out hurt is something that makes him, well, a man. Good luck.

Stay happy, everyone. *Mega-group-hug*

Cobra_Ikari

2008-12-02, 05:53 AM

blah blah blah tea is a vile drink blah blah blah

You. Come hither, and let me slap you with my jug of sweet tea.

Felixaar

2008-12-02, 05:59 AM

Blarggg! :smalltongue:

Also, people who needed advice should check the last post of the previous page, since you might miss it otherwise...

Coidzor

2008-12-02, 06:22 AM

@Coidzor
Are you sure that is the reason for them being cheesed off? Might you have done something else to collectively offend them (like forcibly kissing a certain someone)? Try talking to them to see what is the reason behind their sudden collective dislike.

I only just found out by talking to a few of them that it was mostly increased exposure/"interest" (and advances were never mentioned, so...) that had managed to put them off. I've been wracking my brain here to think of anything different that I had been doing, other than trying to tone down the more overly talkative elements of myself. I mean, I was trying to get better at this whole socializing thing, and it had seemed like I was having some success. I don't think I ever even brought up anything risque unless I was commenting on something risque someone else had mentioned.

The thing is, I actually was asked to stay when I was going to leave several times by the girl I tried to kiss(didn't, btw, didn't even grab her), and it was her complaints of my having shown too much interest(hung around too much) that I found out about first last night (not this night/morning). And then tonight I found out that another girl I had considered a friend was bothered by my presence, and I didn't even flirt with her.

I guess I'll just do that. Though hopefully I won't have to see them for awhile. I guess I'll wait to see if the ones who had the biggest problem with me refrain from contacting me. Otherwise, if they do contact me at all, I might consider asking them what the problem is.

I really should have just gone to bed rather than posting. I'm still confused and hurt, though thankfully not as much as earlier. Now I'm just annoyed.

Silence

2008-12-02, 08:21 AM

Just to clarify, you don't know her in person?

Yup. I'm in USA, and she's in Poland.

You need to accept that your significant other (whether her or otherwise) is bound to have friends of the opposite gender, and will occasionally go out with them.
This guy isn't a "friend". I have friends who are guys who are also friends with her, and I'm cool with that.

But that doesn't necessarily mean anything beyond them being friends, and you shouldn't get jealous over this (unless of course you have good reason to suspect their friend has other intentions).
See above.

Could you elaborate on what this means? Does he see her as a friend and nothing more? Or something else?
Something more......

@Felixaar:

Epic post there :D

Thanks. Some reassurance is nice :)

Thes Hunter

2008-12-02, 08:25 AM

Thes, *pulls over and gives a biiiiiiig hug* you're not any of those things, and tea is a vile drink (prove me wrong!). Now you know what to watch out for, you're gunna be fine :smallsmile:

Thanks man, it means a lot to me.

I am hesitant to start any relationship because I have been so easily pulled into these situations in the past. Given my track record, I fear that I am attracted to people who treat me badly.

So I want to be extra careful, because I do not want to find myself in one of these situations again.

JeminiZero

2008-12-02, 08:40 AM

Yup. I'm in USA, and she's in Poland.

This guy isn't a "friend". I have friends who are guys who are also friends with her, and I'm cool with that.

See above.

Something more......

I see. Well, as long as she is not officially attached to the guy (or as long as she doesn't tell you to stop), you can try pursuing an internet relationship with her. There are stories out there of people who got to know each other over the net, and eventually met face to face to get married.

However, as you say, the odds are against you. Whether or not you stand a fighting chance at all, against someone she can see face to face, is beyond the capacity of a thread on a RPG-dedicated forum to decide. It is entirely up to you decide to whether to keep trying to the end, or give up now and move on.

Edit:

Re-reading my post, I realize that I might not have managed to get across what I meant. A simplified summary is as follows:

1) We can't tell you whether you stand a chance against someone she can see face to face. In fact, the best way to figure out, might be to ask her if she is willing to give you a chance.
2) Even if you do stand a chance, the odds are admittedly against you.
3) You can either accept those odds and keep trying, or you can give up and move on. Its up to you.

Vampire包子

2008-12-02, 10:46 AM

LDR blowout!

So, uh, long story short.

My girlfriend of two years graduated and went back to her home country. I've visited, etc etc, but we're looking at not being able to see each other for maybe the next year or so. She expressed interest in learning to dance (she loves music), and so I decided (with her permission) to take dance lessons to teach her once I see her again.
So, the bad news. We have a mutual friend who lives above me, and we've all been good friends for two years now (they knew each other before they met me, classmates, etc). Anyway, said mutual friend is an excellent dancer, having had lessons/been in clubs/performances/etc, and knows the dance teachers here. So, since we were taking the same lessons and she already knew the steps, we decided to practice together, learn more steps, etc. I asked the girlfriend first, she said she had no objections, as long as I was happy.
Fast forward. Yesterday a classmate mistook us (myself and mutual friend) for being together. We both laughed at him, called him in idiot (in four languages), and left. We both change our nicknames on MSN to reflect his idiocy, girlfriend notices, asks what happened.
I tell her, and she gets.... well, VERY angry. Even though she knows nothing has happened, despite asking to watch us dance so she could see on webcam, ka-boom. Brings up a number of hurtful things (for example, mutual friend's ex-boyfriend who cheated on her after she came to America with-- surprise surprise, his new dance partner!), says I'm running off with a younger woman (mutual friend is six years girlfriend's junior, even though they were in the same MA program), and says how dare I dance with another woman, comparing me with her ex even (after being with eachother for 10 years, he cheated on her after she came to America... no dancing, though, but apparently he kept claiming the girl he was eating with was "just a friend".
So, yeah. I've started to really like dancing, it's the only relaxation I really have time for (heavy courseload), and already signed up for next quarter's dance class (with mutual friend). Even if I drop the class and refuse to dance with mutual friend(was I supposed to refuse to learn to dance until we could learn together?), she is still not in the forgiving mood. First time she's even been angry like this. I haven't done anything (even while dancing, I avoid awkward moves like dipping with mutual friend), and I'm worried about how she might interpret apologies and the like.
Plane tickets are expensive, so flying out with flowers isn't on the menu. But how does one stop the raging fire of jealousy while in an LDR? Only time can prove that yes, we're just friends and not up to no good, but short of refusing to see any and all female friends, how can I manage to keep her from drifting away in the meantime? Or at least is there any way to make her understand? Or even make her not want to kill mutual friend?

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-02, 11:38 AM

Vampire - jealousy can be a big problem with LDRs. You didn't do anything wrong per se, but the joke may have been a bit insensitive. HOWEVER... its not unfixable. You just have to appologise (for being insensitive - not for anything else), but don't make a big deal out of it. But if its going to work between you two long term, then she will have to trust you.

Gray Jester

2008-12-02, 12:34 PM

Vampire--Communication is your friend here. Ask her what about it makes her uncomfortable/etc., and do it in a nice way, preferably over the phone. Listen to her. Take her wants/needs in the relationship into account, and apologize for perhaps being a little insensitive. Don't, however, sacrifice your life and all your friendships at the alter of this relationship. Try to work out a compromise that both people can accept and work with, and leave it at that.

Syka

2008-12-02, 06:42 PM

Vampire, if she's never been jealous like this before and was totally OK with it, chances are it's just horrendous timing. If you got back a few pages and see the issue I had with The Girl, it was horrible timing. Between it being about the same time/circumstances that my ex cheated on me during, miscommunication, him talking to her a lot, me PMSing, and some other...ego-blows that were unavoidable- it led to a blowup of volcanic proportions.

It was baaad, our first bad fight, really. It took about a week, me meeting The Girl, and his asking her to back off (he was uncomfortable too), and the abatement of my PMS/bad time of year for me to finally be OK with it. I'm still getting the occasional pang, but I'm OK with her now.

Give your girlfriend a little bit of time. Tell her you will stop the dancing until she is totally OK with it, etc. Once she's calmed down and had a few days of calmness, I'd talk to her about it and hopefully you can both remain calm. Ask why she'd said it was OK if it wasn't etc.

And it's possible that joke was just too much for her to see. Afterall, she is there and you are here with the girl. That was one of the biggest problems for me- here is my boyfriend hanging out with a girl he says is "one of us" (meaning a dork), who he actually could see regularly, and meanwhile, I'm away at school.

It sucks balls and sometimes all it takes is one little thing to knock your insecurity over.

On abusive relationships: A survey (Tjaden & Thoennes, 1999) looked at the prevalence of violence in relationships. Just for physical abuse, 22% of women and 7% of men had been assaulted by an intimate partner.

In another survey, 12.1% of women and 11.3% of men had reported having committed at least one violent act against their husband or wife in the previous year.

The main thing is women generally use violence for different reasons (reaction to other violence as opposed to instigating), and it's generally less harmful.

I'm sure emotional abuse is also fairly equal between the genders and that it's more prevalent than physical abuse.

Skywalker, I'm glad you guys are working through it. :) Good luck.

Cheers~

PS- Those statistics came from my relationships book. We just did the chapter on Conflict and Violence.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-02, 06:53 PM

Vampire,

Give your girlfriend a little bit of time. Tell her you will stop the dancing until she is totally OK with it, etc.

im definately gunna have to disagree with that one.

knocking the jokes on the head is one thing, but if you're enjoy the dancing, then carry on. With all LDR there has to be a fair degree of trust. If she can't even trust you to attend a dance class together (especially considering how you've actively gone out of your way to avoid certain moves like dips etc that you consider 'over the line') then thats something you need to talk to her about.

Syka

2008-12-02, 06:58 PM

im definately gunna have to disagree with that one.

knocking the jokes on the head is one thing, but if you're enjoy the dancing, then carry on. With all LDR there has to be a fair degree of trust. If she can't even trust you to attend a dance class together (especially considering how you've actively gone out of your way to avoid certain moves like dips etc that you consider 'over the line') then thats something you need to talk to her about.

I missed where he said he avoids certain moves, that changes it. Vampire, just...be tactful in the talking. If she's having a bad time of it (which she very well may be, even if she's not actually jealous, LDR's can cause a lot of stress that make you question stuff you'd not even think about otherwise), then acting like she's being silly will not help.

Cheers~

Ash08

2008-12-02, 08:44 PM

Felixaar

2008-12-02, 09:51 PM

Vampire, you call that a long story short? Pfft. At any rate my advice would be to get more of your friends involved in the dancing so that it was more than just the two of you, alone - this can of course seem a bit off. If it's in a group, she will probably feel better about it. I would also second any advice Syka gives, as she is ofcourse the master of LDR's.

Ash, first off, any problem is welcome here so long as it abides by forum rules. As for the issue... I would try talking to the girl in question and explaining how much its bothering you that they do this and ask her to hurry up and resolve it.

Gray Jester

2008-12-02, 09:54 PM

Alright, this may or may not belong here, but it has romance involved so I'll post anyway. My group of friends is now being torn apart by a girl. Two of my friends are both head over heels in love with her and are compeating fiercly for her affections. In the process of doing this their own friendship os breaking up over the girl and they're forcing me and the rest of my friends to chose sides. The girl isn't leaning towards either but is quite nice to both of them. What should me and my friends do? Is there anything we can do?

One, talk with the girl. It might be a bit awkward, but it seems absolutely necessary. Explain to her the situation, because if she is causing it, perhaps she'll be willing to help put an end to it. She might not know anything about this drama that she's causing. She might even be willing to help put an end to it.

Two, talk with the friends. No girl, and I will make this clear: NO GIRL, romantically, is worth not-being-friends over. The same is true the other way, too, so a generalized version of this is: no romantic relationship is worth losing a perfectly good friendship for. Romantic relationships are known to end much more often then friendships. Sit the two guys down, preferably together, and tell them this in no uncertain terms, hopefully with everyone else in the group.

Three, if it continues to be a problem, just take your closest friends in the group and split off, if necessary. The rest of the group will probably follow, and you've not only recentered the group around -not- their drama, you could even meet new people if you used it as an excuse to make new friends.

Felixaar

2008-12-02, 09:59 PM

@Felixaar:

Epic post there :D

Thanks. Some reassurance is nice :)

Does this make me an Epic Level Advice Giver? Cause it's about time.

Glad I could help :smallbiggrin:

Pyrian

2008-12-02, 10:57 PM

In the process of doing this their own friendship os breaking up over the girl and they're forcing me and the rest of my friends to chose sides. ... What should me and my friends do?You should adamantly refuse to choose sides and rebuke them for even trying to get you to do so. :smallcool:

averagejoe

2008-12-02, 11:43 PM

Okay. This time I need actual advice instead of reassurance/encouragement.

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5328451&postcount=86) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5332828&postcount=127) contain the situation, for those who don't remember/didn't read.

So my problem is this. This girl is back from thanksgiving, (and it's wonderful to see her again.) However, I'm pretty sure she was going to talk with her (maybe ex) boyfriend over the break. How should I figure out if they're still broken up and let her know I'm still interested without being overly-blunt? (Which is usually what I would do, but instinct tells me I shouldn't.)

Thes Hunter

2008-12-03, 12:00 AM

Felixaar

2008-12-03, 01:48 AM

Joe, I'd love to help but 'not-being-blunt' is not my speciality. Thes' advice seems likely to work though, just be prepared to come out and say it directly if you need to. You don't want to get into one of those sit-com situation where you have to ask the person more and more abnormal questions with humour answers trying to get them to reveal the details of their romance life. And good luck!

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-03, 04:22 AM

You should adamantly refuse to choose sides and rebuke them for even trying to get you to do so. :smallcool:

above advice for the win.

make sure the rebukes are very strongly worded.

averagejoe

2008-12-03, 05:22 AM

@averagejoe: You could always say "So how was break? Did you do anything exciting?" Keep asking her questions, if she got back together with the guy, you should know soon enough. If she is like me, she won't keep from mentioning it for long if she is happy.

The problem is that it's sort of out of character for me to ask people too much about their lives. This is good advice, though, and definitely workable with some modification.

I just finished talking with one of my IRL friends, and they recommend waiting before I actually try anything, because recent breakup. This is rather obvious advice now that I think about it, since waiting is something I'm excessively good at, and tends to be my response to things.

Thes Hunter

2008-12-03, 07:32 AM

But you should still ask her how her break went... even if it is out of character. Because people's favorite topic is themselves, and generally speaking people care more about people who care about them. So a good way to begin showing interest is just to make casual conversation like this.

Is it guaranteed to work? No. But then again, nothing is ever a guaranteed method in getting someone's interest.

Good luck!

*huggles*

Syka

2008-12-03, 08:22 AM

averagejoe

2008-12-04, 01:42 AM

Honestly, I've always found blunt to work for me. :) I much prefer it to playing games. If I have a problem or a question, I don't try and trap someone or subtly ask it- I just do it.

I've actually gotten a significant amount of respect from people because of it, not least the fact that my boyfriend appreciates it.

So...try the blunt way and just ask her. After, of course, other conversation. Find an appropriate segway and have at it.

Interesting. I'll admit that even what I posted above made me feel uncomfortably like I was planning to manipulate her. I have a great dislike of playing games as well. Of course, when you put it like that it sounds like a great option. Still, this will take some consideration, and I'll move ahead cautiously whatever I decide to do.

But you should still ask her how her break went... even if it is out of character. Because people's favorite topic is themselves, and generally speaking people care more about people who care about them. So a good way to begin showing interest is just to make casual conversation like this.

Is it guaranteed to work? No. But then again, nothing is ever a guaranteed method in getting someone's interest.

Good luck!

Fair enough. Yeah, that seems like a good way to go, at least to get me started. I'll have to wing it from there, I guess, which isn't a terrible thing.

Part of the problem is it's kind of hard to meet casually. I live in Berkeley and she's in San Fransisco, far enough down the BART line that it's a good 45 minute transit. I've been playing with the idea of asking her to the San Fransisco Museum of Modern Art, since it's kind of in between, and it allows for good conversation without being overly date-ish. Plus I've been thinking of going anyways.

*huggles*

These "huggles" anger and infuriate me! :smallfurious:

:smallbiggrin:

Pyrian

2008-12-04, 01:48 AM

Plus I've been thinking of going anyways.That's always my favorite kind of date. :smallcool: That way when if it fails, at least I did something I wanted to do, in addition.

Vampire包子

2008-12-04, 03:44 AM

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Spent quite a bit of time talking over it (and it has totally messed up my sleep schedule and now I'm taking caffeine shots to stay awake and finish my final papers.... cursed 13-hour time differences!), and she's at least more willing to talk/listen. Finally figured out (with help from a female friend to translate the from the female-indirectness filter), and figured out just what was bothering her. So, I can still dance, but definitely limit it to during class (no studying video clips online and trying out the moves with her, no matter how convenient- one-on-one dance practice, especially at one's home, is a no-no. This I can definitely agree with!). And try to avoid bringing it up with her- heading to salsa night on Friday night, and I know a few other friends will be there. Hopefully she can settle down enough so that I can explain the details (yes, we were especially careful to avoid too much bodily contact! No, we are not dance partners, we just study together because we bloody live next door and its convenient!)

So, hooray for that. Is there anything I can do to try to speed up the process besides wait for her to calm down though, given distance? I would send flowers or chocolates, but flowers would die on the way, and chocolate would melt.
Also, since I am continuing to dance/see mutual friend on a regular basis (weekly grocery runs since she can't drive in the US, exchanging movies/tv shows we downloaded, etc), when/what should I tell my girlfriend? She kind of has a right to know, and I don't want to be doing anything behind her back (i.e. salsa night on Friday night), but if she still needs time to calm down, is it worth it to put off telling her for a few weeks until she calms down? Or should I skip out, and just act as designated driver and chill at an art gallery until they finish dancing? I sort of feel obligated to tell her, but if telling her things should doesn't really need to know would simply upset her, it might be better not to. For example, I can't stop grocery runs- a 100lb girl is not going to be carrying a 50-lb sack of rice to the bus stop and wait there for half an hour when it's below freezing. Not when I have a car and am doing groceries at the same time. But telling her would probably just tick her off, even though she might want to know.... girls, would you prefer to be told, or just not bother you with unessential information?

Quincunx

2008-12-04, 03:53 AM

Considering the size of the potential explosion if you worked out a schedule of permitted contact with the 'danger', and then had more contact than that. . .better tell her, with the most bureaucratic exactitude you can muster. Aim to include the "boring" implied with "bureaucratic".

Felixaar

2008-12-04, 04:34 AM

Vampire, Couldn't hurt to make a point of how much of a bother it is, to go out and do such things. Your GF might catch on that you're exaggerating it, but she'll probably appreciate it even more. Ofcourse, despite my many years studying them, I still have no idea how girls react in different situations. So... don't hide it, but don't like say "WE'RE GOING GROCERY SHOPPING TOGETHER!". If you keep your GF updated on all the things the two of you are doing together then that might have the reverse effect.

Joe, Art Museum definetly sounds like a neat idea. :smallfrown: Why didn't you take me? :smalltongue: My advice: Don't plan too much. Regardless of how well you plan things out you'll end up winging it anyway. For example, the second time I asked Rachel out, we were meeting in an Airport. Now, I was supposed to get their at eight am, her at nine, and then my two friends we were hanging out with about eleven. So I was thinking I could go get her, and then dissapear to go get us breakfast, at that time handing her the letter which pretty much asked her out. Of course, my plane got delayed two hours, Rach' waited around not knowing, and I pretty much rushed up and said 'READ THIS BEFORE ANUAN AND CINDY ARRIVE!'

So, yeah, don't plan ahead to far. You know what they say about plans... they rarely survive contact with the enemy.

JeminiZero

2008-12-04, 04:53 AM

Is there anything I can do to try to speed up the process besides wait for her to calm down though, given distance? I would send flowers or chocolates, but flowers would die on the way, and chocolate would melt.

Not necessarily. Find a local (to her) florist which takes orders online. They can send fresh flowers in your name. The other universally accepted gift for girls is usually jewelry, which when packaged properly should be able to survive the trip.

That said, I'm not sure if you should be doing anything like this when you really didn't do anything wrong in the first place, because thats almost like an admission of guilt. If you want to do this, don't do it to make up, do it because you love her and/or its Christmas.

Also, since I am continuing to dance/see mutual friend on a regular basis (weekly grocery runs since she can't drive in the US, exchanging movies/tv shows we downloaded, etc), when/what should I tell my girlfriend? She kind of has a right to know, and I don't want to be doing anything behind her back (i.e. salsa night on Friday night), but if she still needs time to calm down, is it worth it to put off telling her for a few weeks until she calms down?

[crazy talk]You don't have to actually see mutual friend to do some of the stuff listed. Adopt the protocol you see in spy movies: let your contact know you want to send something (e.g. over the phone), leave the goods (e.g. groceries or portable hard disks) in a discrete place (e.g. each other's doorstep), send a signal (e.g. ring the doorbell) and then walk away calmly.

That way, you can honestly say you only talk to each other over the phone/e-mail, and do not see her physically outside of dance class (or whatever), which allows you to both remain honest and give her time to cool down, but entails a huge amount of trouble.[/crazy talk]

But telling her would probably just tick her off, even though she might want to know.... girls, would you prefer to be told, or just not bother you with unessential information?

The problem is that sometimes, what constitutes 'unessential information' varies tremendously according to person and mood. If you want to play it safe, you have to let her know in some manner. The main question becomes timing: now or after a cool down period.

IMHO: your best bet might be a cool down of a week of less. That way, she is not as angry, but at the same time, it is 'soon enough' that you won't be accused dodging the issue/trying to hide it from her. And your early Christmas present has time to reach her.

Also, what you could do, is ask your girlfriend, whether she is willing to let you see mutual friend to continue doing the stuff listed above. That would help her feel less angry (possibly after she has recieved your early Christmas present).

[crazy talk]And if she doesn't agree, then you probably have to adopt faux spy protocols if you want to continue. [/crazy talk]

Felixaar

2008-12-04, 05:03 AM

Not necessarily. Find a local (to her) florist which takes orders online. They can send fresh flowers in your name. The other universally accepted gift for girls is usually jewelry, which when packaged properly should be able to survive the trip.

This, too, is an excellent idea.

Cheesegear

2008-12-04, 08:10 AM

Not necessarily. Find a local (to her) florist which takes orders online. They can send fresh flowers in your name. The other universally cliché gift for girls is usually jewelry, which when packaged properly should be able to survive the trip.

Fixed it for you.

Vampire包子

2008-12-04, 09:37 AM

Local florist it is! Man, I gotta stop living in the last millenium... or get some sleep. Bawls and liquid energy shots are not a good way to go T.T

Thanks for the advice everyone :smallsmile:

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-04, 10:50 AM

Vampire - im going to have to be the voice of decent here. While you may have been in the grey area of wrong when it comes to some insensitive jokes, you've already appologised for that. Your do not have to appologise any further as that would assign blame to yourself in a situation where its burden is not yours.

if you do send flowers, make sure they are clearly a jesture of affection, and not of appology

i would tell you to stand-up to her some more, as it comes across as you modifying your behavior despite having done nothing else wrong (apart from the jokes - which has already been dealt with) to accomodate her insecurities.... but usually on this board it ends up with a fair few people saying "no no no! you have to compromise".

Carry on with the dancing, and carry on having fun. Your girlfriend is just going to have to trust you. By the sounds of it you've shown nothing but loyalty to your girlfriend, despite the distance, so if that hasn't earnt you some trust by now, nothing will. Personally i wouldn't go out of my way to tell her what you've been doing, but if she asks then tell her. The key is not to make a big deal out of it, but to be honest and open about it when she does enquire.

And also - make it clear to her that if she has a problem in future, not to talk about it through her female-indirectness filter. She will just have to be straight forward about things so you can get them sorted. LDRs usually only work out when there are certain groundrules - and by the sounds it, shes making all of them for you, and that just seems unfair.

Syka

2008-12-04, 01:23 PM

Unless you know she likes flowers, I'd avoid that. I personally would prefer flowers randomly than as some sort of apology or some such.

No, I don't think he should make all compromises- but compromises do need to be made if one wants to stay in a relationship. Like, I'd really rather not have to deal with my boyfriend being gone most of the time, but given his dream job is as a filmmaker I'm willing to handle that. In the same vein, he's willing to not hang out alone with women (outside of business context or good friends he's had a while) if I'm not comfortable with it.

Relationships are about agreements and compromises and if someone doesn't want to make a compromise and the other person needs it, then the relationship ends. But saying across the board that she should just 'deal with it' is not a good outlook for relationships.

I do agree with the directness. My bluntness is something that has aided my relationships. I had a friend advise to me to try and subtly ask my boyfriend about something, and I ignored that since, well, games like that are bull. So if she doesn't actually voice her concerns and rather tries to trap you, talk to her about that.

His behavior modification is not bending to her whims- he agreed!

As for when you do stuff, I know my boyfriend and I generally keep us abreast of what we're doing whether it's on our own or with friends, regardless of what friends. This way we can know whether it's OK to call, etc. It's not a trust thing so much as just update to make sure there isn't miscommunication thing. Like, if I know he's gaming with the guys and I need to call but he doesn't answer, I know he's not ignoring my call (which he's only done once and not since), but just probably in the middle of a game. Or like if we have a project that's due the next day, we understand why they can't talk.

So if you're doing something, feel free to tell her just casually.

Cheers~

Vampire包子

2008-12-04, 02:16 PM

Good points ^^ Flowers is kind of a gift a usually brought for her whenever I came back from travelling- she has flowers (most now dried) from four countries now. More of a "I love you and was thinking of you" then an apology- and as a note, if you have to pass through TSA (Thieves Standing Around), they will mangle your beautiful bouquet as they look for hidden fruit.

Indirectness just seems built into her and everything she does; I've tried asking her to be more direct, but to no avail. I'm not sure if its cultural or linguistic or what but her girlspeak factor plus language barriers just kills me sometimes, and in two years I have yet to make progress. I've talked to her about it, and she becomes even more indirect, or frustrated I am not "listening properly or earnestly enough" or "not reading what she is saying" on MSN. If she wants or doesn't want something, it's very hard to pick up. A lot of the subtle clues I used to pick up in person are lost over the internet, especially if she not speaking to me much because she's upset over something I don't know about (well, now I know), and I should have discerned it from who knows what.

P.S. Are those who seek advice allowed to dispense as well? If you're screwing up your own love life (I thought I was doing well @@), seems kind of difficult for me to try to dispense advice to others...

Pyrian

2008-12-04, 02:46 PM

P.S. Are those who seek advice allowed to dispense as well?Of course. :smallcool: We don't have any sort of "Guru/Supplicant" divide, here, and many of our most frequent advisors have also asked questions.

Syka

2008-12-04, 04:34 PM

Vampire, of course you can seek and dispense advice. :) I've had to ask about stuff often enough on here, myself.

Just because you don't know everything doesn't mean you don't know something. Differing perspectives are always welcome since not everything will work for everyone. Kinda like how Pancake and I have very different views on somethings. For some people, my advice may be better, but for others his would be better.

Cheers,
Syka

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-04, 08:24 PM

Just because you don't know everything doesn't mean you don't know something. Differing perspectives are always welcome since not everything will work for everyone. Kinda like how Pancake and I have very different views on somethings. For some people, my advice may be better, but for others his would be better.

couldn't have put it better myself - we're like shadows and vorlons. We both want you to progress, we just have differing methods :smallwink:

but with less planet-killers-hidden-in-hyperspace action

averagejoe

2008-12-04, 08:34 PM

Joe, Art Museum definetly sounds like a neat idea. :smallfrown: Why didn't you take me? :smalltongue:

I didn't think of it at the time. I actually didn't think of this until a few weeks ago, when a friend mentioned a couple of exhibits that sounded neat, but you need two people for. (For the curious: One is a couple of headphones, really good sound insulation, and each pair has a microphone that transmits your voice to the other person, but with a five second delay. The second is a pair of microphones hooked up to an oscilloscope set to the x-y display. I dunno if either is art, but they sound like fun.)

rayne_dragon

2008-12-04, 08:54 PM

P.S. Are those who seek advice allowed to dispense as well? If you're screwing up your own love life (I thought I was doing well @@), seems kind of difficult for me to try to dispense advice to others...

I'd also like to add that sometimes having problems is what makes you good at giving advice. If somebody's been through what you're going through they will often be aware of how various courses of action can work out. I call it learning from the mistakes of others.

Felixaar

2008-12-04, 08:56 PM

I didn't think of it at the time. I actually didn't think of this until a few weeks ago, when a friend mentioned a couple of exhibits that sounded neat, but you need two people for. (For the curious: One is a couple of headphones, really good sound insulation, and each pair has a microphone that transmits your voice to the other person, but with a five second delay. The second is a pair of microphones hooked up to an oscilloscope set to the x-y display. I dunno if either is art, but they sound like fun.)

Probably for the best you didn't take me. You lost me at 'oscilloscope'.

And yeah, Vampire, advice giving and receiving all blends into one around here and the more people we have around to offer advice, the better. Even such love gods as me have been known to show up looking for a few tips every now and then...

Y'kno, just to make the rest of you feel loved :smallwink:

averagejoe

2008-12-04, 09:00 PM

Probably for the best you didn't take me. You lost me at 'oscilloscope'.

They measure changing voltages. (Or constant ones, but that's pretty boring, and other devices can do that better.) Youtube the word.

JeminiZero

2008-12-04, 09:14 PM

i would tell you to stand-up to her some more, as it comes across as you modifying your behavior despite having done nothing else wrong (apart from the jokes - which has already been dealt with) to accomodate her insecurities.... but usually on this board it ends up with a fair few people saying "no no no! you have to compromise".

I have come to the sudden realization that the [crazy talk] coming from the back of my head in the last post, was probably sarcasm...

In support of what Pancake is saying, compromise involves give and take on both sides. When one side demands too much from the other, the relationship starts to push towards abusive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5401890&postcount=490). The catch is that there is a continuous spectrum between compromising and abusive, rather than a clear black and white divide. And as a significant other starts to demand more and more, you have to decide where to draw the line, and either stand up or break it off.

Local florist it is! Man, I gotta stop living in the last millenium... or get some sleep. Bawls and liquid energy shots are not a good way to go T.T

I'm of the opinion, it would be better to give her something a little more... permanent than flowers. Its Christmas after all. This is your chance to show that you have actually been listening, and to give her that one thing she always wanted (whatever that may be).

P.S. Are those who seek advice allowed to dispense as well? If you're screwing up your own love life (I thought I was doing well @@), seems kind of difficult for me to try to dispense advice to others...

Sure you can. Look at me, I sit here pretending to know something.

Felixaar

2008-12-04, 09:38 PM

They measure changing voltages. (Or constant ones, but that's pretty boring, and other devices can do that better.) Youtube the word.

You lost me at 'changing voltages'.

Nah, I kid :smalltongue:

Ash08

2008-12-04, 09:38 PM

Right so I talked to the girl being in my experince the girls are a whole lot more "understanding" than the guys. Anyway it turns out that she isn't even romanticly intrested in either of them, she may like them as people, but she said that she certainly wouldn't want to go out with either of them. Also, after telling her about their fighting and "exploits" she laughed and then said that she was flattered, but that I should talk to them about it. I have yet to go ahead with said talking but I plan on it tomorrow before anything bad happens in the general terms of the relations between my two friends. Do you think I should tell them that she doesn't like them? What should I say?

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-04, 09:43 PM

don't mention that shes not interested - that would come across as bitchy and they're likely to screen out the rest of the message and not take anything on board, even if you are right

tell them this: if they like her, have at it and make a move if they want to, but don't be idiots, argue and make everyone around them feel uncomfortable in the process. Its unfair on everyone else, and makes them look like immature morons.

If they don't want to get on (over a girl who neither of them has even made a move on yet - which is stupid enough), then thats their own call to make. But leave everyone else out of it

Ash08

2008-12-04, 09:48 PM

sounds like an excellent idea, I shall act apon it tommorow, thank you pancake guy

Felixaar

2008-12-04, 09:49 PM

Pfft, try asking her out yourself, just to make the situation more dramatic.

I kid, that's not a good idea.

Don't mention her not liking them, they won't believe you. Just tell them to hurry up and sort it out.

Good working talking to the girl, though.

Coidzor

2008-12-04, 09:50 PM

Do you think I should tell them that she doesn't like them? What should I say?

So she shirked out of doing anything, eh? Boop. You could just tell them to quit the stupidity and go ahead and get shot down already. Maybe point out how she said she'd never date either of them, but was taking great pleasure from their process of tearing their friendships apart when they don't have a chance in hell because she doesn't like them and neither of them bothered to ask her. Then segue into, well, on the otherhand, your friends don't much enjoy the two of you having such a falling out and alienating the rest of us because, y'know, we actually care about you when she'd just as soon watch you crash and burn.

You can, also, of course, just cut to the, "knock it off guys, this rivalry of yours is tearing us apart and isn't worth losing your friendship over and trying to force us to choose between the two of you. You need to calm down and take a step back and see what you're doing here." This is probably where the rest of the posse offers up their two cents in a Power of Friendship moment. Optionally you can go in here about how neither of them asked her out and you did ask her if she liked either of them and she said she'd never date either of them ever, especially after this fiasco.

Better advice forthcoming, but of course. ninja'd, but of course.

JeminiZero

2008-12-04, 09:55 PM

Syka

2008-12-04, 10:03 PM

This is why I do NOT get involved in those situations. I stay the heck away. I had two friends who, before they briefly dated, both told me they liked each other. I point blank told them both I would not be relaying messages, I would not be doing recon, and I would not get caught in the middle.

They broke up and I didn't get caught in the middle. :) It's kinda like how I won't get involved in fights between friends and such. I'm Switzerland, essentially. :smallwink: I like to stay neutral, unless there is a good reason to not be. Like if one of said friends had cheated, they'd probably be blacklisted.

Cheers,
Syka

Ash08

2008-12-04, 10:07 PM

@Ash08
(Unless I got ninja'ed) I will be the first to say you are not in an easy position. Because really, if I find out a friend of mine, went up to a someone I liked and told them that I liked them behind my back (or at least without my permission), I would not be happy with said friend. You will probably have to deal with this seperately, after letting them know what you did.

The next problem you face is that depending on how angry/paranoid they are, they may suspect that you are lying to them, so that they will break it off, and you can have the girl all to yourself. It will help if you bring the girl along so that she can tell them in person (failing which, a well worded e-mail from her to both of them will also work). You shouldn't have to give the 'just friends' speech on her behalf. For best effect, she should finish off by saying something like "I don't want to see two great friends fall out over me", to give them the impetus to start making up.

Edit: Dang it, this board is crawling with ninjas.

Uh yea, about that...:smallbiggrin: uh.. as the ... best with words in my group... uh ... I was voted up to do this.... not my choice, but best for job.... uh .... yeah... needed help.... not up to snuff... yea... so asked.... gotten help. There fore the group should save me from any bezerk fury(opretive word being should) Anyway, guys thanks for the advice, I'll incorperate a little bit of it all and make a LOT up as I go.... OH BOY am i looking forward to tommorow!:smalleek:

Felixaar

2008-12-04, 10:18 PM

I'm Switzerland, essentially.

I'm more like Germany. Ambitious, and misunderstood.

...Nah, I kid. I'm more like Australia, believe it or not.

Ash08

2008-12-04, 10:23 PM

I pride myself as some very obscure eastern european country. Bazzare in a good way. wierd humor, language and traditions that no one understands. But we have really good food!

averagejoe

2008-12-04, 10:31 PM

Coidzor

2008-12-04, 10:32 PM

Well, make sure that they're going to back you up before you go ahead with it and don't rely on them to "cue in" if they might be thinking they're just making you into the scapegoat.

In other news, I just tell both parties to ask the other out before they get bored and wander off.

@V: Pepper Spray?

Ash08

2008-12-04, 10:35 PM

Well, make sure that they're going to back you up before you go ahead with it and don't rely on them to "cue in" if they might be thinking they're just making you into the scapegoat.

Me? A scapegoat, I don't think they'd do that to ME. No actually I'll probably be fine. They'll back me up if things go wrong. And thats IF things go wrong, which were all hoping will NOT happen. Anyway as I said before I'm the best available at the time without hiring a proffesional guy for the job. But this will take some serious mumbo jumbo to get out of trouble if things go wrong.*takes big breath* Wish me luck:smallfrown:

Syka

2008-12-04, 10:45 PM

As I said, why I don't get involved. I don't mind friend's asking as long as they accept if I say no, I'm staying out of it.

Cheers~

skywalker

2008-12-04, 11:03 PM

I'm more like Germany. Ambitious, and misunderstood.

...Nah, I kid. I'm more like Australia, believe it or not.

Man, I was trying to think up something snarky but realized there is no funny, concise way to joke about or even describe Australia's contribution to any war I've heard of Australia participating in. Sad day.

I point blank told them both I would not be relaying messages, I would not be doing recon, and I would not get caught in the middle.

I'm sorry, I find the usage of the word "recon" hilarious.

couldn't have put it better myself - we're like shadows and vorlons. We both want you to progress, we just have differing methods :smallwink:

but with less planet-killers-hidden-in-hyperspace action

This deserves to be made into a banner, too...

Wait, where did all the banners go?!

Syka

2008-12-04, 11:13 PM

I actually have had friends ask me to find out subtly if another friend liked them and all that stuff.

I hate it. oo' 'Cause if you know they don't, you don't want to hurt them, but you also don't want to give them false info. It sucks. Can you tell I've had this attempted on me many times?

Cheers,
Syka

Coidzor

2008-12-04, 11:21 PM

Syka: You do seem a bit sensitive about such things.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-04, 11:25 PM

people know when they send me to dig the dirt for them they'll get the truth back... i dont see the point in lying. If it hurts, they'll have to suck it up, but at least they can get on with things instead of dwelling on a no-go situation. And woe betide those who get annoyed at not liking the response they get - don't ask me to do something if you're not willing to live with all the potential outcomes... thats just asking to get your head bitten off

Pyrian

2008-12-04, 11:34 PM

I'm sorry, I find the usage of the word "recon" hilarious.Love as war. :smallcool:

Syka

2008-12-04, 11:34 PM

Syka: You do seem a bit sensitive about such things.

People don't like hearing bad news. They have a tendency to shoot the messenger. :smallsmile: I've also had people try to give themselves the job of intermediary for me and a crush, and I couldn't stand it either, so...eh.

But yeah, if you give news someone doesn't want to hear, you are the closest target. Not too mention, if you a sworn to secrecy and then the target gets suspicious, you get in a bad spot if you like to keep your word and yet don't want to lie.

I had a friend once actually tell me he liked my sister. :smalleek: But, he didn't want me to tell anyone or anything so I was kinda going "Um...yeah...er..." and yet he wanted advice.

Cheers,
Syka

mercurymaline

2008-12-05, 01:49 AM

I just told my SO that in the morning he needs to get his stuff and GTFO. I...don't really know how to feel right now. It's lonely, all of a sudden.

turkishproverb

2008-12-05, 01:56 AM

We iz here if you need to talk.

mercurymaline

2008-12-05, 02:05 AM

Well, the reasons are varied and...delicate. Erm, don't really know if the situation could be fixed. Don't know what sort of advice could be given. I just thought if I put the words down, I'd feel a bit better about it, and I do. I'm just sort of venting. Thank you for your concern, dear. If anyone really wants to hear about it, I'll share, but it's a bit of a rant.

Coidzor

2008-12-05, 02:09 AM

Rant away to whomever you feel comfortable. Does a body good.

Vampire包子

2008-12-05, 02:11 AM

If you don't mind ranting in public, rant away, sometimes you just need to vent to someone.

Otherwise, there's always PMs.*

*(no puns with PMS intended).

mercurymaline

2008-12-05, 02:21 AM

Well, for those who don't know, I'm housesitting. For two-and-a-half years. Government contractor, Middle East, blah blah blah. I pay bills, but the house is already paid for. I'm just here to keep up on the place, feed the cats, etc.

I've lived with my SO for a year-and-a-half. He's on probation, been very well behaved, blah blah blah.

A mutual friend had spoke to him a while ago about his probation almost being up, and asked him if he would do [what got him on probation] again, and all he could say was "Maybe, I don't know." I do not approve.

I told him if he wants to be that sort of person, that goes to show he doesn't really want to be here, he just doesn't want to pay rent. And he wasn't avoiding certain behavior because I asked, but only because he was on probation. (Admittedly, I was overreacting, just a little.) But I told him if that's how it is, he doesn't get to live here.

Pyrian

2008-12-05, 03:11 AM

Does this (http://www.xkcd.com/513/) look familiar to anybody here? :smallbiggrin:

skywalker

2008-12-05, 03:17 AM

Does this (http://www.xkcd.com/513/) look familiar to anybody here? :smallbiggrin:

:smallsigh: I hate this meme.

averagejoe

2008-12-05, 03:42 AM

:smallsigh: I hate this meme.

The comic came up today. How can it be a meme? :smallconfused:

Felixaar

2008-12-05, 03:44 AM

Man, I was trying to think up something snarky but realized there is no funny, concise way to joke about or even describe Australia's contribution to any war I've heard of Australia participating in. Sad day.

You need more history lurnin's :smalltongue: but lets not let this topic get into military history again.

Wait, where did all the banners go?!

Yeah, been meaning to work on that. I have to make a new banner for my website, too.

Morbidwombat, be careful. It really does sound like you are overreacting - though it's difficult to tell without knowing what your SO was on probation for. But I've said some pretty stupid answers to some pretty easy questions in the past - saying "Oh, I dunno," to a question like this (the one I got asked was "So, if she tries to make you cheat on me, what will happen?"). I made the mistake of assuming we were still joking around, and well, it went bad. We made up two days latter when she realised I was just messing around. Ofcourse, she then cheated on me three times so I suppose theres a sort of irony in that.

The point is, be careful of making a rash decision - think about this, and don't just base it on one incidence.

Ofcourse, if theres been a lot leading up to this and/or his probationary reason is SO BAD, then it might be a wise idea to get him out asap.

Best of luck, pal.

also, *snort* at comic. Except I never get to the stage where they give in during a moment of weakness.

skywalker

2008-12-05, 03:46 AM

The comic came up today. How can it be a meme? :smallconfused:

I mean meme in the original sense, a shared cultural idea. Meme may have been the wrong terminology. Maybe trope? Maybe folklore? In any case, everyone has heard of this one. You have heard of the "ladder theory?"

It's bunk.

EDIT:
You need more history lurnin's :smalltongue: but lets not let this topic get into military history again. This idea is made even more strange by the fact that I love military history...

Yeah, been meaning to work on that. I have to make a new banner for my website, too.

Morbidwombat, be careful. It really does sound like you are overreacting - though it's difficult to tell without knowing what your SO was on probation for. But I've said some pretty stupid answers to some pretty easy questions in the past - saying "Oh, I dunno," to a question like this (the one I got asked was "So, if she tries to make you cheat on me, what will happen?"). I made the mistake of assuming we were still joking around, and well, it went bad. We made up two days latter when she realised I was just messing around. Ofcourse, she then cheated on me three times so I suppose theres a sort of irony in that.

This story is very sad. Sorry Felix. It also reminded me, tho, of Coupling. Does anybody else watch that show? Specifically, when the woman is trying to convince Jeff to have "unconditional sex" with her, despite his girlfriend. When another (attached) male is exhorted by his girlfriend to tell Jeff why that's wrong, his reasoning is a confounded "It could be a trick!"

Coidzor

2008-12-05, 04:19 AM

Definitely a delicate situation. Sleeping on it will hopefully help. Good luck, Master Wombat.

Hmm, so a friend of mine who graduated last year called me up yesterday, asking to rant at me/ask for some advice about a situation regarding her ex who dumped her 2 weeks ago. He's basically going through some kind of hysterics with the usual load of BS about not being able to live without her and so on, and even tried to come over while she was having dinner with another friend though she managed to talk him down to just staying in the car and she'd bring his stuff out to him (he managed to kick himself out when he dumped her, *shrug*)

Anyway, I told her to just chill and just take her time to enjoy his lack of proximity and wait a bit to see if he'd go really stalkerish or if he'd calm down, and to just focus on being away from his hysterical, obsessed self, since he seemed fairly ridiculous what with having taken her out engagement ring shopping after only 5 months and breaking up with her shortly thereafter. Basically, look after herself rather than worry about him.

What would you have said in such a sitch? Just going off of the surface(ish) like I was.

...a woman... wanting sex? It's always either a trick or a trap if not both. :smalltongue: Seriously though, you might not have had much of a chance if you had asked earlier on in the relationship before things more or less "settled," but if you try for something "organic" by waiting for the right moment to take her in her sorrow, that's not only creepy but also delusional. That's what I came away with after reading about that Ladder Theory stuff. Am I forgetting some major component to things? I mean, other than the fact that people can de(un?)-sex certain people despite bringing them close, such that party A has erased sexuality from their conception of party B while party B is lusting for party A...

Quincunx

2008-12-05, 05:05 AM

Does this (http://www.xkcd.com/513/) look familiar to anybody here? :smallbiggrin:

Don't you just hate it when someone manages to encapsulate. . .let's see, five full threads at 1500 posts apiece, plus 600 from this one, into a single page?

potatocubed

2008-12-05, 07:44 AM

A Little Perspective

So, I was talking to a guy at work earlier about the relationship disasters of his youth, and what I took from it was this:

I have been rejected by many women over the years, but no one has yet felt the need to fake their own death to get away from me.

So maybe I'm doing alright after all. :smalltongue:

Vampiric

2008-12-05, 08:01 AM

Does this (http://www.xkcd.com/513/) look familiar to anybody here? :smallbiggrin:

I must admit, I thought of RWA when I read it this morning :smallbiggrin:

Silence

2008-12-05, 08:39 AM

Does this make me an Epic Level Advice Giver? Cause it's about time.
Yes. Yes it does.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-05, 10:08 AM

Hmm, so a friend of mine who graduated last year called me up yesterday, asking to rant at me/ask for some advice about a situation regarding her ex who dumped her 2 weeks ago. He's basically going through some kind of hysterics with the usual load of BS about not being able to live without her and so on, and even tried to come over while she was having dinner with another friend though she managed to talk him down to just staying in the car and she'd bring his stuff out to him (he managed to kick himself out when he dumped her, *shrug*)

Anyway, I told her to just chill and just take her time to enjoy his lack of proximity and wait a bit to see if he'd go really stalkerish or if he'd calm down, and to just focus on being away from his hysterical, obsessed self, since he seemed fairly ridiculous what with having taken her out engagement ring shopping after only 5 months and breaking up with her shortly thereafter. Basically, look after herself rather than worry about him.

What would you have said in such a sitch? Just going off of the surface(ish) like I was.

i think you hit the nail on the head when you said look after herself. She needs to give herself space and time to sort out her own feelings. He doesn't seem to know what he wants, and if she stays around too much longer she could get really hurt

if she wants to take him back, then do so, but make sure she acknowledges the risk

averagejoe

2008-12-05, 12:50 PM

I mean meme in the original sense, a shared cultural idea. Meme may have been the wrong terminology. Maybe trope? Maybe folklore? In any case, everyone has heard of this one. You have heard of the "ladder theory?"

It's bunk.

I'm sorry, but I'm still very confused about what you're trying to say. What is bunk? What is the "meme" (for lack of a better word) you're even talking about? People putting up xkcd links? That comic? The ideas presented in that comic? If so what aspects of those ideas? I really have no idea what you're trying to say.

A meme, by the way, is an idea or behavior that can pass to others by imitation.

Quincunx

2008-12-05, 01:44 PM

Deathslayer7

2008-12-05, 01:59 PM

Vampiric

2008-12-05, 02:12 PM

three08

2008-12-05, 02:35 PM

Sorry for derailing this thread from XKCD...

>_>
<_<

But, I have a questionitp (tm).

Would you expect (/know of/know from experience/etc.) that religion can be a big influence on a relationship?

For instance, in this not-totally-but-for-the-moment hypothetical scenario, there is me, an atheist (with a touch of anti-organised religion, but that's another discussion entirely) who likes this girl who is catholic (devout-ness is yet to be determined). Thoughts/experience from the playground?

Secondly, any advice on how it might be handled if the conversation arises between us?

you'll have to find out how devout she is before we can really say. "catholic" means a lot of things to different people. suffice it to say, if she is devout, that = guaranteed conflict. doesn't mean the relationship won't work, but it does mean you will have to put in more effort and have more serious conversations and make more compromises and agreements in order to make it work. you'll both have to be accepting and understanding of the other's beliefs and opinions.

thing is, you can only control how much YOU accept and tolerate HER beliefs. you can't make her accept or tolerate yours. she may tolerate yours, or she might be able to be persuaded, but the very real possibility exists that she may not be willing to accomodate yours and nothing you can say or do will convince her. if that's the case, there's nothing you can do except comply or move on.

Sub_Zero

2008-12-05, 02:40 PM

By the sound of it you don't really mind if she's catholic or not, so it really depends on her views. If she's willing to put up with your atheism then hey, you're there, but if not there's not really much you can do about it, you'd have to talk it out with her. But that's just my opinion.

Vampiric

2008-12-05, 02:55 PM

Thanks guys. Really helps to have someone else sort out your thoughts for you :smallbiggrin:

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-05, 03:28 PM

i am an athiest... i've dated religious girls before. The key i find is not to talk about religion, and just focus on the fact you like each other and have fun.

Zeful

2008-12-05, 03:33 PM

Deathslayer7

2008-12-05, 03:38 PM

Thanks guys. Really helps to have someone else sort out your thoughts for you :smallbiggrin:

religion is a topic that is bound to bring up some arguments. I wouldn't mention it unless you plan on getting engaged or something. Then I would. It is better to decide that early on.

RightHandless

2008-12-05, 03:50 PM

I'd ask for relationship advice, but most of my problems have to do with the fact that there are no eligible girls where I go to (that and my crippling self-esteem issues (please don't tell me to see a therapist about that either)).

How do I fix that?

Aside from finding some way to travel to where the eligible girls are, only the paths of long distance relationship and dates with Rosie Palms (every young man’s favourite seamstress,) are open for you to walk.

The low self esteem is an easier drama to end.

Why do you have low self esteem? If the answer is that you do not like the person that you are, then the solution is to take control of your life and make yourself change into somebody that you do like. Jokes about Rosie Palms aside, love thyself.

If other people are putting you down, then examine their criticism of you, if there is no justice in those criticisms, then have faith in yourself and treat those critiscisms with the contempt that they deserve. So long as you are not harming anyone else, you do not need to conform to societies standards and expectations. Society itself is made up of a great many vulgar and stupid people who believe that multitude is wisdom.

It is not.

I hope that this helps. If you wish to speak more of these things, you need only say so here or PM me.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-05, 03:53 PM

(please don't tell me to see a therapist about that either)

may i ask why not?

Syka

2008-12-05, 03:59 PM

It really depends. I've dated an Atheist, a guy with unknown religious beliefs, and a guy with an amalgam of beliefs. I myself am a committed non-denominational, non-church-attending Christian.

My ex had majoooor issues with it. He just couldn't understand how I could have faith, it boggled his mind. He couldn't handle it. I, on the other hand, was fine with the religious difference.

With my current boyfriend, we respect each others beliefs and have actually helped each other grow through are discussions about it.

I have a friend who liked me, though, who was uber Catholic. I would never be able to date him. Not because of his religion, but because of how he handles it. He basically looks down on those who have different beliefs and he takes it to an extreme such that he, I wouldn't be too far off base to say, is a bigot.

Basically, if someone would try converting me I couldn't date them. But if we can agree that we each have their own beliefs, it's fine.

Cheers,
Syka

Zeful

2008-12-05, 04:18 PM

Aside from finding some way to travel to where the eligible girls are, only the paths of long distance relationship and dates with Rosie Palms (every young man’s favourite seamstress,) are open for you to walk.

The low self esteem is an easier drama to end.

Why do you have low self esteem? If the answer is that you do not like the person that you are, then the solution is to take control of your life and make yourself change into somebody that you do like. Jokes about Rosie Palms aside, love thyself.

If other people are putting you down, then examine their criticism of you, if there is no justice in those criticisms, then have faith in yourself and treat those critiscisms with the contempt that they deserve. So long as you are not harming anyone else, you do not need to conform to societies standards and expectations. Society itself is made up of a great many vulgar and stupid people who believe that multitude is wisdom.

It is not.

I hope that this helps. If you wish to speak more of these things, you need only say so here or PM me. And where would those places be? I know of one place called "The Gay 90's" which, as the name suggests, is full of homosexuals as well. They are, according to people that go there, over affectionate. Zeful and affection mix like nitroglycerin and violent motion, meaning I'd start maiming the idiot that didn't get not to touch me. But I wasn't the most popular person in school, so I wasn't told of where to go.

As for the self-esteem, it's a trained response. For the last 10 years of my life I've been a social outcast. I've been verbally or emotionally abused by nearly everyone I've known in that period. In fact it's easier for me to list the people that have been nice to me (3 including a member here who's a recent addition) than it is to ballpark the people who have hurt me. So logic dictates that "If 99% of everybody you know hates you, they must have a good reason." At my lowest I hated myself with a passion that most people reserve for pedophiles, striking my own reflection in the mirror (it's a plastic mirror so I couldn't break it). Because of these issues, I don't go to new places, why expose yourself to more ridicule than necessary? So I can't find places where women interested in guys like me go for social encounters on my own. With no friends of any kind in my area, I have no one to take me either.

may i ask why not? Because I'm too poor to afford one. I make $500 a month.

skywalker

2008-12-05, 04:27 PM

skywalker is saying, after having read the xkcd comic, "That's not how reality works!" when what he means is "I'm doing that and I have no evil intent!" to which I reply "but there are evil consequences, which this comic makes visible, stemming from your action--your desperation curdles into her despair".

No, sorry, that's not what I was saying. What I was saying was, I hate the meme (idea) that is growing through our society that there are two ladders, two ways of classifying people, that women prefer jerks, etc.

The entire theory is stupid because when you get right down to it, the jerk isn't that bad of a guy. He just pleases her more than you do, and all you ever hear about is her (usually rather exaggerated) descriptions of what he's done wrong. He's not that bad a guy. In the end, the theory is actually more misogynistic than the "jerks" it decries, because it categorizes all women as bitches who can't (or won't) see that there's something better there.

If I'm anyone in that comic, it's the jerk. I've said this before: I'm smart, confident, good-looking, and on my way to becoming very successful. I'm also sweet, caring, and loving. The two are not mutually exclusive. So maybe the theory just doesn't apply to me.

But in my personal opinion, it's a bunch of pseudo-science made up and perpetuated (hence "meme") by guys who are bitter about trying to play out of their league and failing.

I hate that freaking theory.

Mando Knight

2008-12-05, 04:31 PM

The low self esteem is an easier drama to end.

Why do you have low self esteem? If the answer is that you do not like the person that you are, then the solution is to take control of your life and make yourself change into somebody that you do like. Jokes about Rosie Palms aside, love thyself.

Do you really think that self esteem is the easier drama, without exploring what the causes are first? :smallconfused:

Mine doesn't stem from social abuse--rather, it's primarily a hormonal imbalance. It's as real as the nose on your face, and I have to deal with it every day. In my case, it's a hereditary thing (my father and at least a couple of his brothers have been diagnosed with a similar condition), and an actual medical condition, which is treated by an actual medical prescription (what do you think Prozac is for, anyway?) from an actual doctor. However, the years of that mental state from before the treatment began are hard to overcome. For some, "low self-esteem" is simply a hill they have to climb, but for me, it's the freakin' Himalayas.

Zeful

2008-12-05, 04:32 PM

But in my personal opinion, it's a bunch of pseudo-science made up and perpetuated (hence "meme") by guys who are bitter about trying to play out of their league and failing.

I hate that freaking theory.

And why would us bottom rung guys be bitter about this? I hate that theory more than you do probably. Doesn't make it any less true.

Syka

2008-12-05, 04:45 PM

We've discussed this before (see Serp's siggy). THE LADDER THEORY IS A LOAD OF BULL.

I know that, personally, I do not have a friend bin. I've got guy friends who I've known so long that I truly would not want to risk the friendship for a romantic relationship or about whom I've known long enough to learn stuff that makes me realize we'd be incompatible. My current boyfriend actually began as a friend. He had firmly been in the 'friendzone' as we were both unavailable when we met. When we were both single, we began dating.

Basically, most of my guy friends have no chance of getting into a relationship with me, but it's not because one cannot jump ladders. It's because there is either no attraction there or I feel we'd be incompatible.

Cheers,
Syka

Sub_Zero

2008-12-05, 04:49 PM

Low self esteem catches me by suprise so to speak. I'll go a while thinking everything's ok then I'll suddenly just regret things I've said during the day, thing's I could've done better and then don't like myself for it. I find it hard to help my low self esteem because I think "I don't like the way I do such and such a thing, I need to change that", bit it's just part of my personality, and I'll do that, I can't really change it

Edit: I feel a bit better for posting this actually, it feels good to tell people, I don't think I've ever really told anyone before. I like anonymity :smallbiggrin:

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-05, 05:00 PM

the ladder theory is brilliant - the problem is a lot of readers view it as girl-bashing misogany... in truth it is critical of the behavior of both genders, even more so of men infact

RightHandless

2008-12-05, 05:47 PM

And where would those places be? I know of one place called "The Gay 90's" which, as the name suggests, is full of homosexuals as well. They are, according to people that go there, over affectionate. Zeful and affection mix like nitroglycerin and violent motion, meaning I'd start maiming the idiot that didn't get not to touch me. But I wasn't the most popular person in school, so I wasn't told of where to go.

As for the self-esteem, it's a trained response. For the last 10 years of my life I've been a social outcast. I've been verbally or emotionally abused by nearly everyone I've known in that period. In fact it's easier for me to list the people that have been nice to me (3 including a member here who's a recent addition) than it is to ballpark the people who have hurt me. So logic dictates that "If 99% of everybody you know hates you, they must have a good reason." At my lowest I hated myself with a passion that most people reserve for pedophiles, striking my own reflection in the mirror (it's a plastic mirror so I couldn't break it). Because of these issues, I don't go to new places, why expose yourself to more ridicule than necessary? So I can't find places where women interested in guys like me go for social encounters on my own. With no friends of any kind in my area, I have no one to take me either.

The issue of your self esteem needs to be addressed first.

Multitude does not make for wisdom, everyone you have known could be wrong, and if these people have abused you, then they are wrong, no good person would ever abuse or oppress another human being in such a fashion. Above all else, you must believe and know that the opinion of these other people does not matter. You are living this life for yourself, not for other people, you need to come to a point where you love yourself, regardless of other people’s opinions of you.

If you truly wish to end this self hatred, you are going to have to fight it. Forget about the past, the past is dust and has no hold on you, focus solely on the present, for it is the only time that you truly have control over. You must identify if there is something about yourself that you do not like, regardless of what other people think of you. Are you the person that you want to be? Are you doing the things that you want to do in life? If the answer to these questions is yes, then the matter is only an issue of courage, you must be brave enough to drive from your mind the scorn of others, and have the tenacity to hold onto the faith in yourself that you are doing the right thing. If you don’t know the answers to these questions or the answer is no, then have a long hard think about them. What is it about life that inspires you? What do you love above all other things? How can you best embody or propagate that ideal? What do you need to do to do that?

This is going to be extremely difficult, it will take great deal of very hard work. You will need to summon great courage to shield yourself from the clamour of those around you and listen only to yourself. It will take even greater courage for you to truly endeavour towards your goal, the goal of being the person that you want to be, for you not to falter in the face of hardships, and for you not to give in to despair, or the familiar comfort of self hatred.

I know that you can do it. I believe in you. This isn’t just some tale I am spinning you to make you feel false happiness, I truly believe that you can take control of your life and grow into a beautiful person who leads a meaningful existence. You need to believe in yourself too. You don’t have to and shouldn’t hate yourself. You are master of your own destiny and can shape that destiny to your will.

Once you begin the pursuit of your dreams, you will meet people. You will no longer be afraid to venture forth to new places because you will love yourself and wish to share your passions and interests with other people. In the act of pursuing your dreams itself you will go to new places and meet new people. In the meantime, you have the Playground.

Do you really think that self esteem is the easier drama, without exploring what the causes are first? :smallconfused:

Mine doesn't stem from social abuse--rather, it's primarily a hormonal imbalance. It's as real as the nose on your face, and I have to deal with it every day. In my case, it's a hereditary thing (my father and at least a couple of his brothers have been diagnosed with a similar condition), and an actual medical condition, which is treated by an actual medical prescription (what do you think Prozac is for, anyway?) from an actual doctor. However, the years of that mental state from before the treatment began are hard to overcome. For some, "low self-esteem" is simply a hill they have to climb, but for me, it's the freakin' Himalayas.

Self esteem drama, regardless of cause is ultimately a mental battle. Thus, unless your hormonal imbalance renders you completely incapable of self-control, which you yourself has said it does not, it is entirely within your capability to overcome. It is thus an easier drama to end by virtue of the fact that the outcome is not influenced by factors beyond the sufferer’s control. Nowhere have I said that it was anything other than a brutal mental slog.

You are an intelligent human being, you are not a slave to your emotions, however potent they may be. You can deny them and act upon that denial to the last.

I take your comments as rude and unnecessary, and would remind you that, without belittling your own struggle, many do not have such a convenient explanation for their self loathing as hormonal imbalance. I will speak no more of this matter.

To Zeful, if you want a broader spectrum of opinion on your issue (I can only offer my own experience,) then the posters in the Depression thread will be more than happy to listen to what you have to say.

Have faith in yourself and believe in the you that you want to be.

Vampiric

2008-12-05, 06:23 PM

potatocubed

2008-12-05, 06:37 PM

does I refer to you or him? because if it is you, I'm so quoting that middle part. :smallbiggrin:

'I' referred to me in the middle part. One of this guy's exes faked her own death (badly) rather than just break up with him. So quote away. :smalltongue:

Felixaar

2008-12-05, 07:25 PM

This idea is made even more strange by the fact that I love military history...

But it will never love meee! *weep* :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

This story is very sad. Sorry Felix.

Pfft. Felix live :smallsmile: Thanks, tho'.

Yes. Yes it does.

UHHN! ERRN! (I sayd WAR! UHHN!)
...sorry. Hope everything is alright, my friend.

Coid, thats so damn confusing it doesnt make sense. My advice is not to get involved. Support them, but dont try to make their decisions for them, at all. Of course, you should make sure to voice your own opinions, but not to force them on her.

Potato, Me either. ...yet.

On Mixed Religion Relationships, it depends how devout the two are. See, if this Catholic girl turns out to be strongly Catholic against poor Vamp's Atheism, then theres very little chance they'll get together. But she could be just one of those Catholic girls who was born into a Catholic family but doesn't really care (parents might be a problem in this case, though). At any rate you just need to find out her level of devoutity before going on.

And yes, I think that relationships between people of different beliefs can work - even when both people are affirmed in said beliefs. Theres two things necessary for this, however - firstly, the religions - or, in my case, lack thereof (we won't go into details of exactly what I am... I'm just a felix (or as my friends insist, the felix)), - have to be compatible. Some religions just conflict with eachother too wildly for a possible amalgamation (different afterlife beliefs for example). And secondly, neither partner can be stubborn - they must be able to compromise and accept eachother, since many relationship things - a marriage ceremony, the raising of children - can involve a heavy layover of religious beliefs.

Of course, all is just my opinion :smallredface:

Zeful, if you wanna try meeting people, you might consider an internet dating site or something of the like. Kind of depressing, I know, but hey, it could be worth a try. Office romances, while treacherous, are also a possibility if you feel desperate. Or you could just try doing things you like doing - join a book club, take dancing lessons, whatever tickles your fancy.

We had a discusssion on this topic not long ago about such a thing - that it seems relationships always come along when you least expect them, trope or no. So, a better Idea is try and make more friends, and just see if you seem compatible with any of them. Ofcourse, it is hard to get yourself out of the 'want a girlfriend' mindset...

As for building self esteem and confidence, the only way to get confidence is by doing things that require such confidence. So, pretty much just take a jump and do it. Hard at first, but you'll get the hang of it. For esteem, well, I find that life gets a lot easier if you just believe yourself to be the greatest person who has ever existed in the history of everything (but then, I have reason *slicks back hair*). You might also consider doing some rigorous daily physical excercise to make you feel a bit better about yourself too (if you want some advice on this, try to track down a playgrounder called The Crow. Or you could just ask me).

These things are all simple, but difficult - but they're not complex. They just require a bit of motivation, a bit of will power, to finally start doing things - and make sure never to give up when faced with resistance. After all, resistance is not a sign that you're doing the wrong thing - it's a sign that you're getting very close to acheivement.

Sub Zero, don't worry too much about this. I often look back at myself and go "By Steve, i can't believe I did that...", and more importantly, i never learn. I just continue ending every day with, "I'm so stupid!". But then, I have reason *slicks back hair*.

THE LADDER THEORY IS A LOAD OF BULL.

I dunno, I've always liked the theory of taking out the competition by beating all other possible candidates to death with a giant ladder. Now, lets get of the subject before Slurpee kills us.

edit: hail, yet another epic post.

Ash08

2008-12-05, 08:18 PM

despit the fact that NO one wished me luck, I feel that I've had alittle bit of said Luck in the way of talking with those to famous friends of mine. To say shortly, I cornered them one at a time, and basiclly told them that I had done a little snooping in their behalf and that I had come to the conclusion(through the snooping) that said girl does not like them, in fact she likes some one else. Both of them in their own way, after consoladations on my part finally have come to accept this. After breaking this slightly altered news to them, I proceeded to tell each of them about their horribly stupid behavior in the last couple of days. Now this was the time I was exppecting rages of primodial bezerk fury. However supprisingly they acted rather mature(for once) and took what was coming to them. I each seperatly convinced the two of them to shake hands with each other at lunch(that was scenic) and now due to my less thann honest:smalleek: part in this affair, everything is resolved for the most part. Let us hope this is lasting peace. And let us also hope that my lie was also the right thing. Well so ends my drama. I say, good ridance:smallbiggrin:.

averagejoe

2008-12-05, 08:22 PM

No, sorry, that's not what I was saying. What I was saying was, I hate the meme (idea) that is growing through our society that there are two ladders, two ways of classifying people, that women prefer jerks, etc.

The entire theory is stupid because when you get right down to it, the jerk isn't that bad of a guy. He just pleases her more than you do, and all you ever hear about is her (usually rather exaggerated) descriptions of what he's done wrong. He's not that bad a guy. In the end, the theory is actually more misogynistic than the "jerks" it decries, because it categorizes all women as bitches who can't (or won't) see that there's something better there.

If I'm anyone in that comic, it's the jerk. I've said this before: I'm smart, confident, good-looking, and on my way to becoming very successful. I'm also sweet, caring, and loving. The two are not mutually exclusive. So maybe the theory just doesn't apply to me.

But in my personal opinion, it's a bunch of pseudo-science made up and perpetuated (hence "meme") by guys who are bitter about trying to play out of their league and failing.

I hate that freaking theory.

Interesting. I'm not actually familiar with the ladder theory, but I didn't read any of that into the comic. It's basically just saying, "Look, dudes, it's lame to use those methods to try and get with a lady." Nowhere does it create a false dichotomy, nor does it portray women in a negative light.

I'm pretty sure it isn't a meme, though; just because something is accepted by a lot of people doesn't make it a meme. You could just call it a theory or an idea. I'm sorry to get so hung up on this, but it's just that this time the misuse of a word made your meaning completely obtuse (at least to me), and that's the point at which grammar/spelling/word choice correction becomes acceptable.

And I'm gonna have to be picky here and say that there is no 'out of your league'. If you like someone, then go for them. They'll either like you, or they won't. There is no 'league' on which to rate someone. /rant
:smalltongue:

Low self esteem dudes and ladies out there take note; this is very true. The very concept of "league" is an artificial cultural construct based on arbitrary and, frankly, worthless conditions. It's just another way for one group of people to say, "I'm better than this group of people," and those sorts of things are only as true as you let them be. It's all very small minded and shallow.

Pyrian

2008-12-05, 09:03 PM

I'm pretty sure it isn't a meme, though; just because something is accepted by a lot of people doesn't make it a meme. You could just call it a theory or an idea.I think you're drawing distinctions that don't exist. All memes are ideas (or sets of ideas), and all ideas that are communicated are memes. (That's what a meme is: an idea or set of ideas which is being "replicated" through some form of communication.) ...The word is essentially redundant (nobody talks about uncommunicated ideas), an artificial construct designed to highlight similarities between concepts and viral genes.

averagejoe

2008-12-05, 09:40 PM

I think you're drawing distinctions that don't exist. All memes are ideas (or sets of ideas), and all ideas that are communicated are memes. (That's what a meme is: an idea or set of ideas which is being "replicated" through some form of communication.) ...The word is essentially redundant (nobody talks about uncommunicated ideas), an artificial construct designed to highlight similarities between concepts and viral genes.

Hrm. I had thought this might be the case, but I discounted that idea since I doubted the word would have such a meaning, because such a definition seems to render the word almost meaningless. I went with the definition closer to what people mean when they talk about "Internet memes." Perhaps incorrectly.

This will be deleted shortly.
Tommorow, I'm going to the movies with my one friend. Just me and her. I'm really glad that I'm getting to do this. It's not a date.
I wish it was. I really do. I want to tell her how I feel. But idk how. I really don't. "I like you" Really doesn't cut this, and I'm afraid she might take me wanting to take our friendship farther, as me just trying to get with her(ya know, "'Get with her") or that she wouldn't want to be more then friends, and in which, I'd want to stay friends with her, but then, with the kind of awkwardness that follows, I don't know if she'd want to stay friends with me.

I'm gonna enjoy tommorow, this isn't immediate, but still

I would advise you to tell her honestly how you feel; just lay it out. Be simple, direct, and honest. You might lose your friendship, but even if you don't say something you might lose it anyways; holding these kinds of things in can create a rift between people. It is somewhat risky, but, in my opinion, if you really do like her then the risk is worth it. Of course, this is a decision you have to make for yourself, but I would encourage you to tell her.

SilentNight

2008-12-05, 09:50 PM

This will be deleted shortly.
Tommorow, I'm going to the movies with my one friend. Just me and her. I'm really glad that I'm getting to do this. It's not a date.
I wish it was. I really do. I want to tell her how I feel. But idk how. I really don't. "I like you" Really doesn't cut this, and I'm afraid she might take me wanting to take our friendship farther, as me just trying to get with her(ya know, "'Get with her") or that she wouldn't want to be more then friends, and in which, I'd want to stay friends with her, but then, with the kind of awkwardness that follows, I don't know if she'd want to stay friends with me.

I'm gonna enjoy tommorow, this isn't immediate, but still

I would tell her. Make sure you make her understand you're content with just keeping the friendship though. This happened between me and one of my life-long friends recently. We gave it a shot for about a month but it was too awkward. The minute we decided to go back to friends, boom! The awkwardness went away. Just get it out in the open otherwise she'll be your "what if?" girl and that hurts a lot more than at most a few weeks of depression.

Syka

2008-12-05, 09:54 PM

I declare a tie on the meme discussion. ;) Mainly, 'cause it's essentially irrelevant.

Side note: You'd think the last couple weeks before ending the LD part of an LDR would be the best- you have an end to look forward to.

They lie. :smallwink: This isn't near the longest we haven't been able to see each other, but it's easily the most stressful. We're dealing with exams and the whole "zomg we'll actually have a REAL relationship" and the "zomg I may have no life due to a job I'm applying to" on my end. (No life as in working 3pm-12am Sun-Thur)

Cheers,
Syka

JeminiZero

2008-12-05, 10:09 PM

And why would us bottom rung guys be bitter about this? I hate that theory more than you do probably. Doesn't make it any less true.

I have never heard of this ladder theory, so I did a quick google and came to this page (http://www.laddertheory.com/).

To be honest, it seems to me that not all of it is true. Parts of the Ladder Theory (As described in that page) are rather misogynistic. E.g. the bits where it states you have to be an utter jerk to attract women.

But I suppose what you are saying IS true, is the part of the theory that describes the Female 2 ladder system. Except of course, that depending on where you look, the Female 2 Ladder System has various incarnations with differing premises and outcomes, and its hard to say a certain theory is true, if everyone has differing ideas on what that theory is exactly. (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder_theory) describes a very different female 2 ladder theory from the one I linked to above). Ergo:

We've discussed this before (see Serp's siggy). THE LADDER THEORY IS A LOAD OF BULL.

is technically incorrect. Rather, there are multiple ladder theories (or more specifically female 2 ladder theories), of which some or most contain bull. IMHO, however, there are elements of truth in some of them, such as:

1) Females evaluate males seperately on their potential to be friends and to be mates (i.e. boyfriend/husband).
2) Because of the above, it is possible for a female to like a male as a friend, but not as a mate (the so called friends zone or bin)

Syka

2008-12-05, 10:13 PM

I do evaluate based upon this, essentially, assuming I'm not in a relationship.

The problem is the classification is very fluid. I realized that two of the three guys I've dated have been friends beforehand, actually.

It's not like "He'll just be a friend" and "He'll just be a mate". I've moved guys from potential partners to platonic relationships and vice versa.

There is no friend bin. Everyone has people they'd be willing to date and who they wouldn't, but it's hardly a solid classification. As situations change, evaluations change and this is true for everyone regardless of gender.

Cheers~

EDIT: And I've also put guys I've been sexually attracted to firmly in the friends category because I'm intelligent enough to realize when basic values are different enough that it would make a relationship impractical.

In short, ladder theory is bull and how people handle their interactions is far more complex than ladder theory can accurately describe.

Double Edit: I misunderstood your post, but my response stands for those who think the friend's bin is the kiss of death.

Felixaar

2008-12-05, 10:13 PM

despit the fact that NO one wished me luck.

Whaaaat, I'm no one now? Even if I forgot to type it out, I did wish you luck. At any rate, good work, my friend - an excellent execution of thy battleplan.

And Shraik, listen to SilentNight's advice. He knows what he's talking about.

And thanks for ending that, Sykes. Hang in there, you're close! *hugs*

JeminiZero

2008-12-05, 10:58 PM

The problem is the classification is very fluid. I realized that two of the three guys I've dated have been friends beforehand, actually.

It's not like "He'll just be a friend" and "He'll just be a mate". I've moved guys from potential partners to platonic relationships and vice versa.

Actually, the fluid classification thing fits in with the straddling version of the ladder theory, where every guy starts out on both ladders. And those in the friend bin are people who are high on the friends ladder, but low on the mate ladder.

There is no friend bin. Everyone has people they'd be willing to date and who they wouldn't, but it's hardly a solid classification. As situations change, evaluations change and this is true for everyone regardless of gender.

As I see it, this is a definition problem, much like the ladder theory itself. The ladder theory may or may not be bunk depending on how you describe it, just as the friend bin may or may not exist depending on how you define it.

The friend bin as I see it, are those males a female would like as a friend and nothing more.

EDIT: And I've also put guys I've been sexually attracted to firmly in the friends category because I'm intelligent enough to realize when basic values are different enough that it would make a relationship impractical.

Not really. In ladder theory terms, it simply means that your mate ladder includes basic values as an evaluation criteria, and realization of differences moved them several notches down the mate ladder. Most ladder theories acknowledge as much, that sexual attraction is not the sole determinant of mate evaluation.

Double Edit: I misunderstood your post, but my response stands for those who think the friend's bin is the kiss of death.

The major issue you and Serpentine seem to have with the friends bin (well, my definition of the friends bin anyway), is how easy it is to exit friend bin.

I will grant that it is certainly possible: most versions of the ladder theory state that you can jump ladders (or the straddling version states that you can try and progress up the mate ladder).

Syka

2008-12-05, 11:08 PM

The ones I've read say it's difficult.

It also assumes that the values you want in a friend are different than those you want in a mate, which is patently false. The reason women date jerks is usually not because they are jerks but because they are confident where as the nice guys are rarely confident.

You'll notice that the nice guys in good relationships are also confident.

Cheers~

Pocketa

2008-12-06, 12:42 AM

I've known a guy for over a year now, but I didn't really know him until I joined Orchestra when school started. I play cymbals and he does bass, and he gave me 4 lessons or something, I dunno, anyways. We never talk usually, but recently, he's been really super nice to me and I don't know why. He's all "Be careful with guys, they play games with girls, etc." and we always joke that we are totally not interested in each other and people are always joking we should go out. We're just not...no. Just not interested. Or so I thought!

Because today, he made the "Be careful" statement, but also, kept complimenting me on a rehearsal we did, and had others compliment me on it, and he sat next to me a bunch of times but then asked me if it was okay if he went and hung out with other people. But we hadn't even been talking, etc. Also, I'd sit down, then he'd sit next to me. Not the other way around. EVER! Also, another time, he went to get a better seat with some people, and then came back and asked me if I was okay. I said I was fine and it didn't bother me at all, because we aren't together. FYI, it was a fieldtrip, symphony hall seating and public transport seats that I'm referencing to.

So what does it mean?

I don't get this at all. It's really a mixed message. I thought we were just acquaintences...

Syka

2008-12-06, 12:44 AM

rayne_dragon

2008-12-06, 12:55 AM

Well, if you're confused about it, the best thing to do might be to ask him outright how he honestly feels. It does sound a lot like he likes you though, but that hardly means anything.

You may want to figure out your own feelings before talking to him if you haven't already so that if he is interested you can either act on your mutual interest or politely, but firmly inform him you're not interested. After all, it would suck to tell someone you like them only to have not know how to respond - that's an awkward moment best avoided if possible.

Pocketa

2008-12-06, 12:55 AM

He may have romantic intentions or he might just want to become better friends. It's hard to tell unless, well, you're him or he tells you outright.

Also, are you still with the long distance guy or whatever? I'm just curious since I forget a lot of stuff and I tend to be behind on this stuff. >>

Cheers,
Syka

Nah, we broke up because he was still in love with his ex, he lives far away, etc. It was a clean break. Also, he didn't contact me. For a month. My friend said "what if he's grounded and his phone got stolen", I said that would never happen and that's ridiculous.

She was right.

And we talked and then broke up.

Went out with a guy that basically tried to get me to fall for him, then pulls out the creppy cards: "You're so fat" "You should worship me" "I want to date whoever I want and you need to be faithful to me no matter what" "I stalk girl a, b, and c", so seeing as we were never really an item, I hung out with his roomie one day to go and get my stuff back (shirts I'd lent him, etc.) and we fell for each other the second time we hung out, and we've been steady for a month or two.

We see each other once or twice a month, both have v-cards and are planning to save it. We've had opportunities and have the opportunity, we just would rather wait. It's the "what if" factor. I don't want to get pregnant. Also, it's just not important to us.

It was his birthday recently, and the first month anniversary, and we aren't seeing each other around Christmas, so I made some amigurumi (knitted dolls). There's a zombie snowman, Nosferatu, and a pair of grim reapers, a girl and a boy. He got me a dress and a plushie from Nightmare Before Christmas that I'll be getting tomorrow. I'm super pumped because we haven't hung out for serious for about a month.

We have a good relationship thusfar, but I think he's a little too into me. As in, he'd settle down with me eventually "into me". It's too soon to say so I think it's just him being a guy and the fact that neither of us has had a real normal relationship before, built on trust and understanding. We don't have to see each other all the time, we talk alot on IM or the phone but don't make a big deal if we can't make it, we have our own lives, our own friends, and we don't have to go out for dinner and a movie all the time. We usually just hang out and play Rock Band.

I do need advice, however, on something else.

There's a friend of a friend who's the leader of the group I hang out with (not a gang-type way, he's just The Guy) and he's had a crush on me for a while. I'm not into him, we don't have similar interests, and he's not my type, and I've made it known to him that I'm not breaking up with my boyfriend any time soon, but he keeps trying to convince me that he's great. "Can your boyfriend cook a 6 course meal?" "Can he do Swedish massage?" "Is he in the Air Force?" "Can he serenade you?" I'm not gonna be mean to him like I usually am to people that do this because he's friends with my friends, but I don't know what to do instead. Usually, I'll tell them I'm not interested, and the second time, go "mean-popular-hottie" on them and talk about how they'll be single forever, nobody'll love them, they'll never find true love, they're pathetic, etc. But I can't in this case.

EDIT: On the Orchestra guy, he knows I like(d) him because there was a rumor, plus I flirted with him a lot. But then again, I flirt with everyone. Another theory is that it's just him using the Golden Rule. I'm from an area where everyone's super nice and polite, even if we don't mean it, because that's just how we are, and in the Bay, I'm gonna stereotype here and say a lot of people at my school are really rude. I don't even curse much, I don't like saying "darn". Maybe it's just reciprocated respect and politeness?

skywalker

2008-12-06, 01:12 AM

Hrm. I had thought this might be the case, but I discounted that idea since I doubted the word would have such a meaning, because such a definition seems to render the word almost meaningless. I went with the definition closer to what people mean when they talk about "Internet memes." Perhaps incorrectly.

Yes, this would seem to be the case. I meant it as Pyrian explained, better than I could have. You were incorrect, but there ain't nothing wrong with that :smallsmile:

Side note: You'd think the last couple weeks before ending the LD part of an LDR would be the best- you have an end to look forward to.

They lie. :smallwink: This isn't near the longest we haven't been able to see each other, but it's easily the most stressful. We're dealing with exams and the whole "zomg we'll actually have a REAL relationship" and the "zomg I may have no life due to a job I'm applying to" on my end. (No life as in working 3pm-12am Sun-Thur)

*hugs*

It will be ok.

The friend bin as I see it, are those males a female would like as a friend and nothing more.

Ok, here's the first thing I thought when I read that: It's only a bin if you don't want to be there. If you stop thinking of it as a "bin," and realize that some girls aren't going to want to sleep with you and that's ok, I think not only will you have a better perspective, you'll wind up being classified as "friends only," less often.

I seriously think the idea that males will sleep with everyone they meet in some circumstance is silly. I don't think mature males act this way. We might joke about it (and believe it in moments of cynicism), but I personally know from experience that sleeping with someone I don't care about is bad for my emotional health and theirs. Now that I know this, I can freely classify some women (most, in fact) as "would not sleep with, no matter what, for the forseeable future." I can create lists of people I would sleep with, etc, but I would certainly not classify females I meet based on desirability.

Also, again, from experience, I have had several girls who I thought were definitely "friends." I thought that, if there was a friends ladder, I was squarely there, and there was a gaping chasm between the two ladders. Not that I was interested in any ladder-jumping at all. At one point I was told "you are my friend. Nothing can ever happen between us, because we are friends." I think I've mentioned this story before. She wound up all over me, which I completely did not expect.

I again state, I do not think there is a "ladder." There might be two different groups, and you might get classified as "friends only." But thinking of it as a ladder, thinking of it as a "hierarchy," or thinking of girls as "bitches" only compounds the problem. It doesn't do anything to solve it.

JeminiZero

2008-12-06, 02:26 AM

Usually, I'll tell them I'm not interested, and the second time, go "mean-popular-hottie" on them and talk about how they'll be single forever, nobody'll love them, they'll never find true love, they're pathetic, etc.

Alright, now thats just cruel. Poor self esteem is already major problem, and such crap doesn't make it any better.

There's a friend of a friend who's the leader of the group I hang out with (not a gang-type way, he's just The Guy) and he's had a crush on me for a while. I'm not into him, we don't have similar interests, and he's not my type, and I've made it known to him that I'm not breaking up with my boyfriend any time soon, but he keeps trying to convince me that he's great.

First, try talking to him. Muster the most serious angry voice you can, and give him a 'stop or else' speech.

If that fails, next, try telling your mutual friends and asking them for help. If one voice doesn't do the trick, maybe 2 or 3 will. Although they might look at him in a slightly different light when they find out he is persistently trying to steal someone else's girlfriend.

If that doesn't work, resort to cutting off/minimizing contact.

The ones I've read say it's difficult.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Unfortunately, no scientific studies have been done, but I will note that logically speaking, it is those people who end up stuck in the friends bin who complain about it the loudest, thereby biasing general perception towards its existence and difficulty in leaving. :smallsmile:

Ok, here's the first thing I thought when I read that: It's only a bin if you don't want to be there.

I suppose yes, those who don't want to be there call it the bin. Those who don't mind, call it the zone. But the issue generally only arises when the person wants to exit the zone/bin but can't, so by and large, it gets called the bin.

I seriously think the idea that males will sleep with everyone they meet in some circumstance is silly.

Which leads us to the misandric portions of the ladder theory. I would technically disagree, since "in some circumstance" is such a broad term, that it includes altered mind states, extreme duress, and various other 'what-if' scenarios.

I don't think mature males act this way. We might joke about it (and believe it in moments of cynicism)

But I understand what you (trying to) mean: that the 2 ladder system applies as much to males as females. Just that less mature males tend to throw all females onto the mate ladder to begin with.

but I personally know from experience that sleeping with someone I don't care about is bad for my emotional health and theirs.

Oddly enough, this meshes with the male aspect of the ladder theory. You have to care for them (i.e. they have to be high on your one ladder) for you to start considering sleeping with them.

but I would certainly not classify females I meet based on desirability.

And again, (most) ladder theories acknowledges that sexual attraction is not the sole determinant.

Also, again, from experience, I have had several girls who I thought were definitely "friends." I thought that, if there was a friends ladder, I was squarely there, and there was a gaping chasm between the two ladders. Not that I was interested in any ladder-jumping at all. At one point I was told "you are my friend. Nothing can ever happen between us, because we are friends." I think I've mentioned this story before. She wound up all over me, which I completely did not expect.

See straddling version of ladder theory. Also, consider the possibility that when she said "just friends", she may not have been aware you were on the mate ladder, or that you might have 'accidentally' jumped ladders since.

I again state, I do not think there is a "ladder." There might be two different groups, and you might get classified as "friends only." But thinking of it as a ladder, thinking of it as a "hierarchy,"

I see it more of an internal rating system (i.e. how much you care for someone), which is ever present, even among friends. You have mere acquaintances, friends, and best friends. Also, while a normal ladder implies linear hierarchy, a ladder theory does allow for multiple people to be on the same rung.

or thinking of girls as "bitches" only compounds the problem. It doesn't do anything to solve it.

I acknowledge that there are some highly misogynistic versions of the ladder theory out there. And yes, their way of thinking does not helps solve the problem.

Felixaar

2008-12-06, 03:03 AM

Coidzor

2008-12-06, 03:27 AM

It is a delightfully whimsical way of referring to such things. I think my ex referred to virginity as a v-card a few times, though I've only really ever heard it used in a joking manner in the flesh.

Funny thing about Ladder Theory, I always thought that the bitches thing was just for the shock value (or the lulz) more than anything else, as all the incarnations I'd encountered (mainly variants of the "intellectual whores" subset) mainly just seemed to exhort guys to "man up" in the confidence game.

Mainly because it just seemed like they were sick of guys whining about how they couldn't get with girls they had befriended as a means of getting into the pants of, but had never made a move, and then have the audacity to claim that they were "nice guys," despite not actually being nice.

And that's how I interpreted the xkcd thing as, another indictment of "nice guys" as being creepier and less respectful than the jerks who at least compete to get the girl to accept their advances willingly rather than attempting to undermine the will and volition of the object of affection/desire.

Kinda surprised people object to the model's "static" nature though, isn't it obvious that conditions change and people usually are incapable of consciously categorizing people based upon their desirability, limited as we are...

Which reminds me, I probably need to work out how I'd ask a girl to coffee. Well, that, and I'm reminded of how annoying it is when a third party tells you that "girl X isn't interested in you," especially when you've not made any actual moves towards said girl or declared intentions of going after her, either. It mainly just makes me want to ask the girl out just to spite the lot of them (if the girl is even in on it). Does that seem a tad vindictive?

On another note... It's probably a bad idea to ask a guy you almost slept with (let's say, nakedness happened, didn't due to not wanting him to really cheat on his s/o with you) for advice about how to deal with your most recent ex begging to get back with you, right? How do you express in relatively polite terms how bad the premise sounds to a friend if she did something like that?

Edit: Go look up Steely Dan's song "Dirty Work" and listen to it, everyone.

Edit: Point to the man in the nifty hat. You know you're living your life wrong when you start to dread a girl asking you up to her room.

Pyrian

2008-12-06, 04:55 AM

My issue with the various ladder theories is that insofar as they are correct (people judge other people's fitness as friends and mates on at least partially separate scales) they are patently obvious, and insofar as they are not patently obvious, they are only rarely correct. In short, they do not constitute useful information. :smalltongue:

Ninja Chocobo

2008-12-06, 07:26 AM

You must identify if there is something about yourself that you do not like, regardless of what other people think of you. Are you the person that you want to be? Are you doing the things that you want to do in life? If the answer to these questions is yes, then the matter is only an issue of courage, you must be brave enough to drive from your mind the scorn of others, and have the tenacity to hold onto the faith in yourself that you are doing the right thing.

Pardon me here, but I have terrible self esteem as well. Who I want to be is myself, only with better self esteem and less loneliness, which, as has been mentioned, will follow as a result of the former. People are also mostly nice to me. Thus, I have my doubts about this advice.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

EDIT: Not yet, I don't.

Alright, now thats just cruel. Poor self esteem is already major problem, and such crap doesn't make it any better.

As far as I could tell it's only the confident jerkbags that get this. Could you confirm this please, Pocketa?

Syka

2008-12-06, 01:45 PM

Let's all agree to disagree as we did with the memes. :)

Pocketa, if he won't back off- go mean. Tell him that someone who is trying to lure you from your boyfriend is definitely not someone you would want to date, even if you were single, etc. Try nice, then try mean.

Coidzor, yes...Bad Idea (TM). I'd guess they were doing other stuff, just not sexing, yes? Yeah, still cheating, by the way. I somehow managed to convince a friend that it was not a good idea to talk to the guy she's been flirting with/in an emotional relationship with about troubles with her boyfriend. After they broke up and said guy found out, it realized I had good reason- because he started pursuing her much more afterwards, despite still being in the relationship. oO

On the v-card: I hate the whole concept of virginity in the first place so...yeah. That's a rant for another time.

On 'nice guys who want in your pants': Yeah, the up front is definitely better. My current boyfriend has never hid that the fact I wanted to wait did bug him some, and he would ask me every now and then "Can we yet?" knowing full well the answer was no. But we respected each other's views on it. My ex let me think for over a year and a half he was cool with it, then he starts getting all pissy if I so much as tangentially mention sex. I was pissed about that because he then kept trying to coerce me into it. It wasn't a teasing "Can we?" like my now boyfriend but an almost whiny "Why can't we?"

There is a reason I'm happier with my current boyfriend and why I actually class him as a nice guy with confidence.

Cheers~

Coidzor

2008-12-06, 02:13 PM

Coidzor, yes...Bad Idea (TM). I'd guess they were doing other stuff, just not sexing, yes? Yeah, still cheating, by the way. I somehow managed to convince a friend that it was not a good idea to talk to the guy she's been flirting with/in an emotional relationship with about troubles with her boyfriend. After they broke up and said guy found out, it realized I had good reason- because he started pursuing her much more afterwards, despite still being in the relationship. oO

Well, yeah, I know it was cheating, I don't much care about that since I know the guy enough to know that he isn't going to try to make a play for her, mostly because she moved away after graduating. Plus he's getting his for it anyway, noone on campus'll go near him after the girl he cheated on dumped him. There's currently a pool going over whether he'll "turn gay" out of desperation or not, actually.

So she was surprised that the guy she had been seeing behind her boyfriends back made a play for her after she and her boyfriend broke up?

On the v-card: I hate the whole concept of virginity in the first place so...yeah. That's a rant for another time.

On 'nice guys who want in your pants': Yeah, the up front is definitely better. My current boyfriend has never hid that the fact I wanted to wait did bug him some, and he would ask me every now and then "Can we yet?" knowing full well the answer was no. My ex let me think for over a year and a half he was cool with it, then he starts getting all pissy if I so much as tangentially mention sex. I was pissed about that because he then kept trying to coerce me into it. It wasn't a teasing "Can we?" like my now boyfriend but an almost whiny "Why can't we?"

Still, that's an impressive feat of fortitude on his part. Over a year and a half before he even started making advances that managed to make a blip in the "kill this guy" meter.

Syka

2008-12-06, 02:45 PM

It's...complicated. Very, very complicated. Basically, they've been flirting for a while and, despite THREE of us telling her it's more than flirting for him, she kept denying it. She finally can't escape it, and then she was making excuses why it'd be OK for them to eventually be in a relationship. Despite him lying to his girlfriend about her, etc. :smallannoyed: I've been mentally smacking her for that and trying to pound it into her that if he'll do it once, he's more likely to do it again.

Not too mention she'd probably be pretty much blacklisted by...a lot of people. I know I'm, personally, not trusting her after this. It's more complicated, though. >>

And not really...we were long distance and didn't even see each other the first year except for the first time we met so...yeah. We were also 16 (me) and 15 (him) when we began dating. I consider my current boyfriend's patience much more impressive given the circumstances (actually seeing each other frequently, he's done it before, etc). There is more to it then this, as well, but basically, given the situations my ex wasn't really all that 'great' for it. ;) Especially seeing how he cheated on me. :smallsmile:

Cheers~

skywalker

2008-12-06, 03:41 PM

Especially seeing how he cheated on me. :smallsmile:

I... don't think that's a sentence one normally follows with a smile face...

What do you hate so much about the concept of virginity?

Syka

2008-12-06, 03:55 PM

The cheating was what finally ended the relationship (I think it's what gave him the guts to do it), so despite the issues is caused it did have a good outcome, ultimately.

The whole giving/taking/losing thing denotes possession. Except virginity is an abstract concept that you can't truly possess. The whole idea that something that was part of you is now gone, whether it was given or taken or lost, is just depressing. Enjoying consensual sex for the first time should not be seen as losing part of you, it should be celebrated as discovering a new part.

I am the same person now as I was when I was a virgin, with just a difference in my 'experience' level. I did not lose anything, I didn't feel different. I was still me, the same person I've always been.

If anything, I gained something rather than lost it. I personally like how Inara on Firefly puts it: "Virginity is just another state of being." (Jaynestown)

To me, the terminology surrounding virginity and having sex for the first time just carries many negative connotations.

Not too mention the hooplah you can get into when someone whose raped asks if they are still a virgin or if nothing having your hymen means you aren't a virgin and yada yada yada.

Cheers,
Syka

...and if my ex reads this, he'll be pissed. >> Not that it matters.

Jibar

2008-12-06, 04:03 PM

I don't think I've a single friend who hasn't used the term "taking" in terms of my virginity.
I will say that I was used and I wasn't fully comfortable or ready for the relationship. And now, I have to covince myself that this is true. Me being me, I blame myself for the whole affair and find myself defending the woman who for all intents and purposes took advantage of me.

...'s complicated.

Syka

2008-12-06, 04:08 PM

Dallas-Dakota

2008-12-06, 04:11 PM

*hugs Syka*
Thenk you, Syka.
Just for helping out so many people. And me a loong time ago(long for me...It feels like a month ago that I joined these forums.....Interwebs time is fastses...)

And you also Bor. *hugs Bor also*

You two are probably the most kind people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing!

*hugs*

Innis Cabal

2008-12-06, 04:16 PM

The whole giving/taking/losing thing denotes possession. Except virginity is an abstract concept that you can't truly possess. The whole idea that something that was part of you is now gone, whether it was given or taken or lost, is just depressing. Enjoying consensual sex for the first time should not be seen as losing part of you, it should be celebrated as discovering a new part.

I don'y nomally post here, I am happily engaged, but I do read from time to time. And this stopped me.

So I have to ask...wha...i've never once heard losing one's virginity as a bad thing(unless well...it -was- done in a bad way).

Syka

2008-12-06, 04:21 PM

I don'y nomally post here, I am happily engaged, but I do read from time to time. And this stopped me.

So I have to ask...wha...i've never once heard losing one's virginity as a bad thing(unless well...it -was- done in a bad way).

That's the point, the terminology of LOSING something or TAKING something is negative in and of itself, regardless of if the actual event was positive. It makes virginity seem like it is a defining factor in someone's persona. It's fine if it is important to someone, but I think the terminology around it needs to be revised.

On another forum someone asked "is it mine?" in regards to their girlfriend's virginity. I know many people who think it's a grand thing to have someone else's virginity. I personally find that an offensive way to look at sex and sexuality.

My virginity is not my boyfriends, nor was it really mine. I was a virgin, now I am not. Simple. It's just another state of being, not something for someone to posses.

Now, I'm not saying the act of having sex for the first time is not something special or that it should be taken for granted in anyway. I just feel the concept of virginity is outdated and can carry too much weight in someone's judgment of someone else.

Cheers~

potatocubed

2008-12-06, 04:24 PM

I know many people who think it's a grand thing to have someone else's virginity.

They probably didn't have to clean up afterwards.

Quincunx

2008-12-06, 04:51 PM

For such things were washing machines with different temperature settings invented. Remember, while you want hot water to help remove most stains, you want cold water to rinse out blood. Hot water will just make a bloodstain permanent. (While many of our readers and nearly all of the female ones have probably found this out already, it doesn't hurt to state it again.) Just be sure to get the sheets washed the next day if not sooner. Letting these stains sit will ruin the sheet and possibly work down to the mattress, where it'll be even harder to remove. Febreeze only disguises symptoms, it does not solve problems.

RightHandless

2008-12-06, 05:22 PM

Pardon me here, but I have terrible self esteem as well. Who I want to be is myself, only with better self esteem and less loneliness, which, as has been mentioned, will follow as a result of the former. People are also mostly nice to me. Thus, I have my doubts about this advice.

I am not replying to this to defend my ego (c whut I did thar?), but rather, because I actually don't want you to have low self esteem.

You say that you want to be yourself. Thus you like the person that you are, barring the fact that you have low self esteem. So why do you have low self esteem at all? Either you like who you are, and the low self esteem is irrational or you don't like who you are and the low self esteem is a result of that.

If your case is the latter then the advice stands, if the former is true, then just man up and shout down your subconscious. I had a really, really horrible childhood, my subconscious is broken beyond all repair and would send Freud himself screaming for the hills. But I am not ruled by my subconscious, because I have conscious thought with which to override it.

It sounds stupid, but if you feel bad about yourself for no good reasons, then in my experience, part of overcoming that is consciously insisting that you are a good person and that you do not want to feel this way.

Pyrian

2008-12-06, 05:25 PM

I'm not sure I'd even dignify virginity as being a state of being, given that the state of being a virgin is potentially indistinguishable from not being a virgin.

It's history, peculiarly described as a state.

mercurymaline

2008-12-06, 09:26 PM

Morbidwombat, be careful. It really does sound like you are overreacting - though it's difficult to tell without knowing what your SO was on probation for. But I've said some pretty stupid answers to some pretty easy questions in the past - saying "Oh, I dunno," to a question like this (the one I got asked was "So, if she tries to make you cheat on me, what will happen?"). I made the mistake of assuming we were still joking around, and well, it went bad. We made up two days latter when she realised I was just messing around. Ofcourse, she then cheated on me three times so I suppose theres a sort of irony in that.

The point is, be careful of making a rash decision - think about this, and don't just base it on one incidence.

Ofcourse, if theres been a lot leading up to this and/or his probationary reason is SO BAD, then it might be a wise idea to get him out asap.

He was on probation for a really stupid charge, but the point is this: This house = not ours. We don't get to just do whatever we want. The people who own the place are rather conservative, and obviously, work for the government. Illegal behavior on the part of their housekeepers would not be acceptable, and I won't be homeless b/c he can't behave.

It doesn't bug me that much, and I'd never tell him what to do with himself, I was just really upset at that point. He's not the most affectionate person on the planet (He's too metal for all that.) So in the midst of the argument, the thing that brought it all up, I accused him of not being there "with me," but for the free rent. Very juvenile, I know. But it really feels that way sometimes.

So I told him to get out, and the fact that his response was basically "You couldn't pay all the bills if I wasn't here," didn't really help my mood. He's not spoke to me about it since, nor has he made any move to GTFO, so he's basically decided to disregard that conversation entirely. Also doesn't help my mood.

@Coidzor: "Master Wombat?!?" I kind of like that.

Felixaar

2008-12-06, 09:50 PM

Ah, I see. Probably for the best what you did then, but, as I said, before making any further moves you best ascertain precisely whether or not he was just messing around with the chances of him getting into it again or not.

Doesn't sound like he's being very nice though, especially with that bills comment.

As for virginity, I think the problem is that most people are confusing Abstract and Concrete nouns - Viriginity is an Abstract thing - you can't touch it, or hold it with your hands, and thus it can be interpreted in whatever way you like - and some acts do questionably consititue the (removal? loss? end?) of viriginity to some, but not to others. Ultimately, I think it'd be easier if we just didn't get so up in arms over it - everyone is right, in this case.

rayne_dragon

2008-12-06, 10:11 PM

I've heard that virginity used to be roughly equivilant to unmarried. Of course I have no actual sources to back me up on this, so I suppose it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially since it may just be translation issues with Greek and Hebrew words as opposed to the original meaning of the word itself. Still, if true, it's interesting how much it's changed over the centuries.

Also there are definitions of virginity that aren't abstract... but I don't see why anyone makes a big deal about it (except in cases of your own personal belief system). There's also too many different things you can do to be able to easily sort things into a single yes/no category.

Syka

2008-12-06, 11:03 PM

Blah, why must friends act so silly sometimes? Not even silly, this is downright stupid.

She actually asked if I could be just a little happy for how he was acting (he was complimenting her and saying sweet things and all). As I told her, were the situation different I'd be ecstatic because she deserves something good but, knowing the situation, there is no way.

At least my current drama isn't my own but those of my friends (there is her, then another friend with his girlfriend none of us like (lot more to that story), and then that friend and another friend of ours are having a kind of falling out type thing). It's less stressful when the drama in relationships is not related to you.

I much prefer helping rather than needing help. :smallsmile:

Cheers,
Syka

rayne_dragon

2008-12-06, 11:08 PM

I much prefer helping rather than needing help. :smallsmile:

Don't we all?
At least that's the reason I read this thread.

Syka

2008-12-06, 11:20 PM

Don't we all?
At least that's the reason I read this thread.

I've known people who thrive on drama. I'm actually convinced that the Girlfriend We Don't Like is one of such people. As my friend said, things would be going good and she'd find something that would mess it up again.

Cheers,
Syka

Pocketa

2008-12-06, 11:39 PM

Poxy! *runs up and gives a big hug* I haven't seen you around in ages! When you read this, PM me and we'll chat about things.

As for the issues...

-Orchestra Guy sounds like one of two things - he may either be interested in you, and worried of ruining his chances, or he might be kinda worried about you and such, and feels guilty about leaving you - is it just the two of you whenever he leaves? Or are their more people around?

-And as for the other guy, a stiff pipe to the head always does the trick. However, thats probably illegal in California, though not if he's a pigeon, I hear, so you better off just officially telling him you want him to stop - otherwise he sounds like the kind of guy who might just think that you're playing hard to get and screwing with his head, which could eventually lead to very bad situations.

Heh. You're the only person I know who refer's to virignity as 'v-cards'.

The awkward thing about him (OB) asking if it was okay to leave was specifically the fact that it was not just me and him, there were other people around, he sat by me more than would have been average, and the fact that he came back to check up on me. It was a whole fieldtrip full of maybe 50 students, so we weren't together, there was no buddy system, and we are not friends. It was weird and other people commented on it as well.

On the other guy, I'm thinking I'm gonna let it cool off and go to the library at lunch instead, because he knows he's not my type (I'm semi-shallow, unfortunately, but I always am rationalizing it.

tl;dr lots of people like me, so I distinguished between those that were very attractive, those that had great personalities, and "the rest". T

he former two had priority, but there were too many, so I only am interested in people that are my type (tall skinny) and have an awesome attitude)

and he knows I don't just leave people for other people. I don't do that. I started dating my current boyfriend because we were just gonna hang out and I was gonna pick up my stuff from the apartment, and I fell for him. But another part of me says that I should like another guy instead, who I'll call Forchie (4chan), because he has good grades, ambition, comes from the "right" kind of family, he's wealthy, lives nearby to me (10 minutes whenever I want vs. 45 minutes on BART once a week), is closer to my age, etc.

Being human is tough, but that's what makes it beautiful. I have the power to love, and sometimes, one has to make choices. I don't know who I should be with, but I have made a comittment to my boyfriend. He might upset me sometimes on accident (saying things jokingly I get upset by), he might not be the brightest bulb in the lamp, but what makes him different from all the other guys I like is that I care about him.

And I'm glad he cares about me too.

Because, realistically?

All the other guys are hormonal teenagers looking for one thing. Not all guys, mind you, just the ones involved in this (Forchie, Orchestra Boy <OB>, and Mr. Lunch), and it's okay, it's just not what I am looking for.

averagejoe

2008-12-07, 01:51 AM

It sounds stupid, but if you feel bad about yourself for no good reasons, then in my experience, part of overcoming that is consciously insisting that you are a good person and that you do not want to feel this way.

I concur (and find it encouraging that someone else thinks about things this way. There's too few people who do, and they never believe me when I essentially give them the secret to happiness. Or at least a secret.)

Virginity is something people get too hung up on. I have to agree with Pyrian; it isn't like, look I'm one thing, then, OMG sex, and I'm another. Sex is just something you do. When I try root beer for the first time have I lost something? When I break my first limb have I transitioned to another state of being? This romanticism and glorification of sex to, at times, near religious levels is silly.

Pyrian

2008-12-07, 03:43 AM

(I'm semi-shallow, unfortunately, but I always am rationalizing it.

tl;dr lots of people like me, so I distinguished between those that were very attractive, those that had great personalities, and "the rest". T

he former two had priority, but there were too many, so I only am interested in people that are my type (tall skinny) and have an awesome attitude)Heheh, this gives me flashbacks to the discussion on "leagues" we had here recently. Everyone was arguing that they don't exist, which is technically true, but people are still generally judgmental. Personally, I have zero issues with "shallowness" in relationship seeking, because frankly, the difference between what I want in a close friend and what I want in a relationship is pretty much entirely physical. :smalltongue:

That being said...

It's reputationally dangerous to actually say the sorts of things you just posted. Far better to just stick with "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested," "I'm flattered, but I'm taken," and even "Thanks, but you're not what I'm looking for in a relationship." Never actually tell people statements that basically amount to, "Lots of people like me so I don't have to stoop to dating you" - even if, in your opinion, it is true. :smallcool:

averagejoe

2008-12-07, 03:55 AM

Everyone was arguing that they don't exist, which is technically true, but people are still generally judgmental.

Well, that's just a matter of perspective. If I get rejected by someone it isn't because they're too good for me, it's because they weren't perceptive enough to see how great I am. :smallcool:

Coidzor

2008-12-07, 06:18 AM

Yay for romantic entanglements. More of a, getting this out of my head than a complaint... I think.

So I was hanging out with some of the lady friends since one of them turned 20 yesterday and they were having a bit of a movie thing. One thing leads to another, and one of the girls decides she doesn't want to climb up the bunkbed into her bed so she (K) crashes in her roomie's(S) bed, and even burrows under the covers. S and her friend T decide that this won't do, or that going to bed is an excellent idea, so they pile in after her, and before I've gathered my stuff and excused myself, they invited me into the pile.

This continues for some time until things get rearranged by K deciding that she doesn't like being on the bottom, so I end up on the bottom, being all dense and all. She leaps out of the bed 5 minutes later due to having been on top of my lap in some small part *ahem*. So, then I realize that I've been rubbing the backs of S and T, and can't really figure out if they're awake or what since they've both got large amounts of hair. I lay there for awhile, before I realize that T is nuzzling deeper into me, so I ask them if they're awake or not, S doesn't respond but T does, and I think that's the first time I've asked someone if they wanted to kiss me or something and not been laughed at. Then, later, she bit my tongue after dragging me to the futon. There is something very excruciating about having your tongue bitten on down on with a purpose while someone is kissing you.

I think we were watching movies until 10:30, messed around hanging out until 11-something, then the bed thing happened, this continued until about 12:30 when I tucked S into her covers since we had been on top of them earlier and T dragged me off. make out session/dealing with cat/hanging out uncertain about what had just happened ensued until about 3 when I excused myself since despite S and K falling asleep while I was in their bunkbed, they probably would take a turn if I were there when they woke up.

Feel a little bit guilty since I had been meaning to ask S out, but had been pushed into uncertainty about whether I should due to her roomie K and another friend telling me not to do it without being solicited for advice or even being told I was into her. On my part it was partially release, guess I'll find out what her side was. I did follow my friends' advice to let her kiss first though, since that time earlier in the thread where a girl asked me to kiss her and then turned out to have not realized it.

...Come to think of it, I think my shoes are still somewhere in there...

ghost_warlock

2008-12-07, 07:16 AM

Pocketa

2008-12-07, 01:13 PM

Heheh, this gives me flashbacks to the discussion on "leagues" we had here recently. Everyone was arguing that they don't exist, which is technically true, but people are still generally judgmental. Personally, I have zero issues with "shallowness" in relationship seeking, because frankly, the difference between what I want in a close friend and what I want in a relationship is pretty much entirely physical. :smalltongue:

That being said...

It's reputationally dangerous to actually say the sorts of things you just posted. Far better to just stick with "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested," "I'm flattered, but I'm taken," and even "Thanks, but you're not what I'm looking for in a relationship." Never actually tell people statements that basically amount to, "Lots of people like me so I don't have to stoop to dating you" - even if, in your opinion, it is true. :smallcool:

I know it's dangerous to say that sort of thing, but people know I have those standards regardless because of the kind of people I date. Attractive (to me) with some redeeming attributes at least. I think the biggest problems I have with the persistent guy was the fact that he knows I have a boyfriend, he's trying to get me to leave my boyfriend for him, and the fact he knows I'm not interested in him physically or personality-wise.

I don't like people trying to break up couples to get to one of the members of the couple because it happened to me with my first boyfriend.

I've tried to tell him nicely that I'm not into him, so I might have to be really mean to get him to go away. I don't really want to do that, so I'll just avoid everyone for a week. Also, I have the sort of reputation where if you're nice to me and I like you, you're fine, you have a loyal friend in me. If you're mean to me or people I care about, you're toast. And trying to get me to break up with my boyfriend to go out with you for no other reason other than the fact that you want to own me? Not cool.

skywalker

2008-12-07, 03:52 PM

I don't like people trying to break up couples to get to one of the members of the couple because it happened to me with my first boyfriend.

Who does like those people?

Syka

2008-12-07, 04:20 PM

Who does like those people?

The people who do it. I've heard people say if the couple isn't married, the person is still fair game.

:smalleek:

Cheers~

Coidzor

2008-12-07, 05:31 PM

I think it's more considered bad form than insert head between legs. At least I think it's generally considered a step up from straight-out adulterering. Kissing Cousins but not quite the same. (Mostly because, if one succeeds, one can refluff the situation to cast it all in a good light)

Yay for murk. It's what lurks within the hearts of man. That and lust and a little greed and sloth in varying amounts.

Cleverdan22

2008-12-07, 10:05 PM

So I'm asking out a girl I've liked for over a year now Thursday. Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes, wish me luck and all that. Hopefully I'll do better than Haley.

Syka

2008-12-07, 10:13 PM

So I'm asking out a girl I've liked for over a year now Thursday. Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes, wish me luck and all that. Hopefully I'll do better than Haley.

Good luck! Good for you for going out on the limb. Taking chances are the only way you'll ever get anything done in life.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-07, 10:15 PM

So I'm asking out a girl I've liked for over a year now Thursday. Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes, wish me luck and all that. Hopefully I'll do better than Haley.

good luck there! I would advise against mentioning how long you've liked her for though - that will just add unnessary pressure to the situation that neither of you need. Look forward to hearing back from you

Cleverdan22

2008-12-07, 10:18 PM

Thanks guys! And yeah, Pancake, I realized that might not be the best thing to do. I guess I'll find out on Thursday if I will regret not having done it sooner, or regret doing it at all.

Gray Jester

2008-12-07, 10:31 PM

The people who do it. I've heard people say if the couple isn't married, the person is still fair game.

Which is disrespectful of the couple, what they've put into the relationship, and their agreement to be monogamous. If the person doesn't -know- the people are together, and is simply being -more shiny- then one of the people, I see it as acceptable. However, as soon as it gets to manipulation of one or both ("I heard he said...", "Wow, your SO is *x*", etc.), it's not acceptable anymore.

Syka

2008-12-07, 10:43 PM

Which is disrespectful of the couple, what they've put into the relationship, and their agreement to be monogamous. If the person doesn't -know- the people are together, and is simply being -more shiny- then one of the people, I see it as acceptable. However, as soon as it gets to manipulation of one or both ("I heard he said...", "Wow, your SO is *x*", etc.), it's not acceptable anymore.

Yeah, as I said- I try and avoid those people. Which is why I'm so torn over the situation with my friend. On one hand, if it were another friend I wasn't as close to, I'd not hesitate to end the friendship. On the other, I am familiar with what she's been through in the past so it's not entirely nonsensical the reasons behind her actions and if I drop her now it would probably do more harm than good.

At some point I'll need to tell her that she's changed from the K I knew, not in a good way.

God I hope I don't get a call in a couple days telling me they hooked up. :smallsigh:

Felixaar

2008-12-07, 11:37 PM

Well, that's just a matter of perspective. If I get rejected by someone it isn't because they're too good for me, it's because they weren't perceptive enough to see how great I am. :smallcool:

Steve damn it, Joe, you're awesome.

So I'm asking out a girl I've liked for over a year now Thursday. Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes, wish me luck and all that. Hopefully I'll do better than Haley.

Way to go, Dan! Just a heads up, it couldn't hurt to check out the 'talking to girls' link in my sig.

Sykes, I'd say just keep out of it. You don't want to get your fingerprints on whatever train wreck may be coming :smalleek:

Hmm, on breaking up couples, I agree it's not really appropriate to attempt to break up another couple in order to score one of the members for yourself - after all, I've often though that love is not wanting someone, but wanting them to be happy (and hoping against hope that you can be the one who does make them happy), thus if you love someone then you should, regardless of whether it hurts you or not, let them make their own decisions. You can't just come up with the "but he's not a good guy! it'll break up eventually!" excuse either - you may be right, but you don't have the right to decide that for them. You don't necessarily know whats best for a person, so you just have to let them make their own choices...

Ofcourse, if you're a self-righteous, fast talkin' ******* who doesnt care a thing for the person in question but just thinks their hot and wants them for your own purposes, then, well, that's perfectly fitting with character.

It's a hard situation to be in, though. I've been put in it myself, once or twice, and I figured I had no choice but to simply wait and see. Eventually, those two did break up, and everything sort of came together nicely before falling apart in a hideous wreck.

So... don't get too up in arms about people who try to break up other relationships, if they're doing it for love. No, they aren't doing the right thing, not by a long shot - but it's an understandable thing, and they're probably as confused as hell of it and criticism wont help. After all, Love, like War, makes people do crazy things.

Coid my man, what an interesting life you lead. Now, first, you need to sort out what the hell is going on with T - pretty much ask her if it meant anything, and then if it didnt mean anything to her then well move on from that, and if it did, then you need to work out if it meant anything to you and either go for it with her or just let her down nice and easy.

If you go for it with her, congrats. If not, and you still want to ask out S, then you need to wait a while for T to cool off - be sure she wont go psycho or something - then lay your battleplan. Though I doubt you need it, it couldn't hurt to check out the 'talking to girls' link in my sig.

And now for something completely different...
Not really asking for advice but just an update on my situation - Last night my folks threw a dinner party - always a rowdy affair. Anyway since Rachel and I were supposed to catch up on Friday but didn't because he team meeting for her trip to USA and Mexico got shifted to that night (watch out, Seattle, Portland, San Franscisco and Tijuana!), I invited her over to the party.

Party was a quite a lot of fun, as it always is - but due to seating arrangements I didn't really get to chat with Rache much. Heh, funnily enough, towards the end of the evening, we all sort of sat around in a big old circle, and me, being lazy, was one of the last people to drag a chair over. So, I plonked myself right down in the middle of the four old ladies and we had a great old time chatting about the way things used to be and splitting a block of chocolate.

Anyhow, earlier in the party, Rache got a call from her dad saying he was coming to pick her up. He turned up only a few minutes later with some news - her uncle passed away. V. sad though not entirely unexpected - he's been in the grips of extended dementure for many years now, and though I didn't say it, I couldn't help but think that it was kind of for the best.

I gave her a call to day to see how she was going. She seems all right though a little shocked. I suppose even though you know these things are coming they still take you by suprise. I told her to pass on my condolences to her parents and all that, and that we'd chat later and catch up some time during the week.

I think I did okay. The only thing I'm really wondering is whether or not I should attend the funeral - I only met the guy once, and he was already out of it by then, but I feel more like I could be there for Rache's emotional support. But then, I also feel like I should let them be together as a family for this occasion and not get involved.

Thoughts?

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-07, 11:38 PM

I guess I'll find out on Thursday if I will regret not having done it sooner, or regret doing it at all.

trust me - rejection is always better than regret. The pain from former is fleeting, but the latter will stay with you for a LONG time to come

Felix - talk to her. Be direct about it. Even if she doesnt want you to attend, she will appreciate the gesture. Plus if you're direct and she doesn't want you to attend, then at least you can offer other methods of support if she needs them. Just let her take the lead on the situation in terms of direction and give her the space to decide

SilentNight

2008-12-07, 11:59 PM

Felix:What pancake said.

Felixaar

2008-12-08, 12:16 AM

Good advice, Gentleman, but the only problem is that Rache' is extremely weak willed. If I told her to go jump off a cliff I have no doubt that she'd give serious though to the idea.

What I mean is, if I make any indication whatsoever I'd like to attend, she'll instantly invite me regardless of whether she really wants me there or not. However, if I ask her if she'd like me to come, she'll say 'no, that's okay, but thankyou,' simply because she never accepts anything on the first offer and wouldn't want to - in her words, not mine - waste my time.

*shakes head* Females. So difficult to read, and then when you work them out, they drive you even more mad than usual.

I think I'm pretty much decidely over the idea of a relationship with her, though. Partly because of the weak willed part I mentioned before, but also that I think I can help her a lot more as a friend.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-08, 12:21 AM

Felix - i think as you're not keen on the idea of a relationship with her, that would go against directly offering to attend the funeral to support her. It would chuck out all sorts of mixed messages (no one takes a friend to a funeral). Just offer her "if theres anything you need, don't hesitate to ask... and i mean that". Thats the best you can do in the situation without pressurising her one way or the other. It allows the decisions she makes to be her own, without making her feel she HAS to involve you out of some sense of gratitude for the offer

Serpentine

2008-12-08, 12:59 AM

:smallsigh: I hate this meme.To be fair, the comic is lampooning this (stupid) idea. It's basically looking at the hypocrisy of the guys who believe in it. As the punchline emphasises, they claim to be the ones who truly respect women, when in fact they're just manipulative.
Yep, was summoned. Rawr :smallwink:
The important bits from my siglinks:

If I found out that one of my friends was saying that the only reason I won't snog him is because he is irrevocably in the "friend bin" or equivalent, my response would be outrage: How dare you reduce my entire psyche to such an over-simplification, how dare you presume to know my most intimate emotional workings beyond what I've already expressed to you, and how DARE you shunt all your insecurities and flaws onto me?! I find it downright offensive. Among the innumerable implications are that: a female's emotions and opinions are immobile and constant, her mind is unchangable, and she is in no way effected by outside stimuli; frienships are absolutely inferior to physical relationships; a guy is only hanging out with a girl because he wants to get with her; and that the only real factors in a girl's choice of significant other is whether they're classified as "datable" or "friend". Your female friend may be a) Not interested, b) Secretly interested, c) Just hasn't looked at you in that way yet, or d) Is more interested in someone else. None of these are unchangable! Simply letting them know that you might be interested in them in a way other than friendship could be enough to shift it, or there's also the whole, you know, working on your current relationship with them thing. There is also, of course, the possibility that you're simply not the sort of person she's interested in. You might be able to try to alter yourself to fit better what she does like, but this is probably a good idea only if this change would be for the better. Otherwise, give up and/or hope her taste changes. In any case, is friendship really so terrible that you can't just enjoy it without lamenting over the lack of "something more"? If so, back away. You'll only end up blaming the girl, ruining what you have, and quite possibly making her miserable.

The "friend bin" or equivalent, as used everywhere I've seen it, as opposed to being talked about, as in this discussion
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang.

Real life
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. I really like you and enjoy being around you. But, I'm sorry, for one reason or another, you're just not the sort of person I'm interested in dating right now.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?

It seems like you imagine the female mind is set up like this -
Not dateable: Friend.
Dateable: You, unless you're a Friend.

Whereas in fact it's probably more like this:
Friend: Funny/intelligent/interesting/clever/etc
Dateable: As above, + "something else" and/or "clicking" + attraction

"Girls like bad boys/Good guys finish last". I would suggest that the issue here is not one of good/bad, but confidence. Confidence is sexy. That's not to say that shyness is never attractive, but it's less attention-grabbing than self-confidence, and rarely sexy. Unfortunately, there is a very fine line between "self-confident dude" and "arrogant bastard", which a depressingly large number of both males and females fail to distinguish. It is (probably) not the bad things bad guys do that they like, but the confidence they have to do/while they're doing it. Being a little assertive occasionally is not a bad thing. (alternatively, it could be a self-esteem issue, in which case I think you'd be doing her a favour by letting her know that it's not just jerks who are interested in her)
Jemini, the blue bit is something I think is particularly relevant to one of your points. The problem with it isn't the idea of "categories", it's the idea that the only reason a girl won't go out with a guy is because he's a friend, and that this not only cannot be changed but is undesirable. Honestly, Syka's "there's friends I've been friends with too long to risk the friendship by going out with them" I find pretty dodgy, but I suspect that the real issue is that she's not interested in them that way, possibly due to the duration of the friendship (...still seems dodgy, sorry), rather than simply the fact of the friendship.

Flix: How about "Unless you'd prefer I didn't come, I'd be glad to keep you company"?

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 01:05 AM

Who does like those people?

So, what if, like, the 'couple' are in a long-distance relationship and only see each other 2-3 times per year?

I've always managed to...deflect...homewreckers targeting me while I'm in a relationship, but I've accidentally become a homewrecker when a couple women apparently decided that I was a better deal than their current long-distance relationship. Does it reflect poorly on me that I just went with it and didn't try very hard to dissuade them? (Well, I suppose the first time it happened I did, but that was mostly because I didn't see my relationship with the girl lasting very long.)

Coidzor

2008-12-08, 01:06 AM

What does that mean, anyway? It was just passing infatuationish? I find myself wondering about that idea for some reason. Hmm.

Be there for her, be the hand that reaches, not the hand that overreaches down the back of her dress...wait...I'm mixing metaphor again. Uhm... Be the hand that goes halfway, not the hand that forces into a soul-crystal for a year while reprogramming the person to believe exactly as you do. Yeah, there we go. What Pancake said.

The annoying thing is that I have to figure out what I'd like to go for in this scenario and since it popped up so unexpectedly I'm having to think about it. And I ended up giving her a day to think about it as well, though if she wanted to she could find me/contact me.

Did I mention that being bit in the throat makes for an interesting bruise?

Ed 1:Serpentine: I always viewed it as more, a certain quality or qualities lacking in otherwise decent people caused them to progress in a woman's estimation of their worth(Fladder) without having any equivalent gain in their status as sexual entities/mates(Sladder). Rather than Friend sticker = no sex. The erroneous thinking of the "'nice' guys" that the theory itself seemed to mock and decry is what I thought was the source of "she won't date me or see me as anything other than a teddy bear due to being a friend" sentiment. ...Or was something different being discussed?

Edd 2:Yay for convoluted webs of humanity.

n' Eddy 3: And then there's the times where the outside factors are friends and family who want a girl to stop seeing the guy for hitting her and sleeping with grandma at that one christmas party....

Serpentine

2008-12-08, 01:09 AM

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-08, 01:19 AM

sometimes it takes an 'outside influence' to make a person realise that they want to end things

not because the new person is more interesting etc etc, but meerly because itmakes them realise how not happy (different from unhappy) the old person makes them

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 01:25 AM

I think I've always viewed the situation in the light that it's not my responsibility to ensure that the person I'm with is happy. That's their responsibility. However, I will ensure that I am happy, which entails expressing my emotions and affections and doing nice things for the woman I'm with as they come naturally. I do my share of house chores (perhaps more than, actually...) but that's more an aspect of learning how to peacefully cohabitate with anyone, not just a SO.

I guess I figured that if someone is in a relationship but is actually looking for someone else, they can't be all that happy in the relationship?

TFT

2008-12-08, 01:56 AM

JeminiZero

2008-12-08, 02:09 AM

Jemini, the blue bit is something I think is particularly relevant to one of your points. The problem with it isn't the idea of "categories", it's the idea that the only reason a girl won't go out with a guy is because he's a friend, and that this not only cannot be changed but is undesirable.

You seem to be missing my point (well one of my points at any rate). The entire Ladder Theory and the accompanying Friends Bin is such an ill-defined and nebulous concept that it means different things for different people. Ladder Theory and its accompanying terms (including friends bin) is impossible to debunk, simply because no one can agree on what it is in the first place. Consequently usage of these terms promotes misunderstanding, as each person takes away a different message from the same words. E.g.

What He Said
Guy A: I was in her friends bin.

What They understood:
JeminiZero: She wasn't attracted to him in that way.

Misogynistic Ladder Theory Proponent: She's a !@#$%^&* who will only date jerks.

Coidzor: I always viewed it as more, a certain quality or qualities lacking in otherwise decent people etc etc

Serpentine: How dare you reduce my entire psyche to such an over-simplification etc etc

You will note that I previously decided to try and circumvent such misunderstanding by actually stating what I believed the defining points of each were.

skywalker

2008-12-08, 02:15 AM

I guess I figured that if someone is in a relationship but is actually looking for someone else, they can't be all that happy in the relationship?

I'm going to address both of your posts in one because it saves time and effort. On the subject of long distance, people can make rash decisions when there's a big distance. I think taking advantage of someone in a time of unhappiness is wrong, yes, especially when the other party isn't around to fix it.

More generally, let's go back to my most recent woe, detailed starting in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5395902&postcount=468). Would you say that guy was "in the right?" Clearly, my girl was upset about something with me (I'm pretty sure it's this incredible depression I'm in right now) to even consider him, correct? Now, I can see where you're coming from. But I think taking advantage of someone's weakened will-power in an attempt to make them break a promise they've made is... well, gitp isn't friendly to the words I want to use. It sucks, to say the least. I have been that guy in the past and it's never worked out well. I also realized later that I was really screwing over some pretty nice guys who were just in bad situations at the time. Except for that one jerk. But I don't think I did the right thing, even in that situation. Having been there, I can understand the appeal and the psychology behind both being and accepting a bad influence. I still don't think it's right.

EDIT: And I'm clearly referring to a more active "homewrecker" in this situation. There is less dishonor in merely being a willing participant, altho clearly, you must be willing to participate. It's not like I looked at those girls and said "No, what about your boyfriend?!" and then they tied me down, etc. I still feel bad about even those situations where I was merely "a willing participant."

Pyrian

2008-12-08, 02:50 AM

I think a relationship should end because of issues inherent to that relationship, not because of outside issues. E.g., a person should break up with their SO because they don't want to be with them anymore, not because they'd prefer to be with someone else.I've always been surprised at the sheer number of people who really really don't want to be single, above and beyond all other considerations. These people will only jump 'ship if they've already got their next one lined up. I don't agree with that attitude nor behavior - but it's too widespread to ignore. :smallconfused:

Nor do I think that behavior, outside of marriage, is strictly speaking wrong or "evil", as long as they end one relationship before actually beginning the next one (my experience is that these people are no more likely to cheat than anybody else, and perhaps even less so).

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 03:25 AM

I'm going to address both of your posts in one because it saves time and effort. On the subject of long distance, people can make rash decisions when there's a big distance. I think taking advantage of someone in a time of unhappiness is wrong, yes, especially when the other party isn't around to fix it.

More generally, let's go back to my most recent woe, detailed starting in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5395902&postcount=468). Would you say that guy was "in the right?" Clearly, my girl was upset about something with me (I'm pretty sure it's this incredible depression I'm in right now) to even consider him, correct? Now, I can see where you're coming from. But I think taking advantage of someone's weakened will-power in an attempt to make them break a promise they've made is... well, gitp isn't friendly to the words I want to use. It sucks, to say the least. I have been that guy in the past and it's never worked out well. I also realized later that I was really screwing over some pretty nice guys who were just in bad situations at the time. Except for that one jerk. But I don't think I did the right thing, even in that situation. Having been there, I can understand the appeal and the psychology behind both being and accepting a bad influence. I still don't think it's right.

EDIT: And I'm clearly referring to a more active "homewrecker" in this situation. There is less dishonor in merely being a willing participant, altho clearly, you must be willing to participate. It's not like I looked at those girls and said "No, what about your boyfriend?!" and then they tied me down, etc. I still feel bad about even those situations where I was merely "a willing participant."
Okay, where to begin...
Well, I suppose that maybe I'll start with your specific question, do I think he was 'right' to text your somewhat-girlfriend inappropriate things? Well, I'm not actually sure. I'm not sure if this is something I could give a yes or no answer to. On one hand, I realize that it was emotionally hurtful for you and if she's committed to her relationship with you it was probably out of line. On the other hand, if she's not as committed to the relationship and you do have trust issues with her, this sort of thing is probably going to continue, if only in your mind, and eventually spiral out of control. You cannot be in a healthy relationship with someone you cannot trust. It's really as simple as that. Whether or not she's still texting, or doing other things, you're likely always going to be afraid that she is and feel insecure about the situation. Sometimes, 'if you love them, let them go' is really good advice. :smallfrown:

I've been there. If you want to know how the situation eventually resolved itself, click the spoiler. Not for the faint of heart/stomach.I was living in the same house as a girl I was sort-of-seeing like you are with your lady. We had separete bedrooms, mine being in the finished basement of the house, directly under her room. She brought another guy home while I happened to be there, sleeping. She didn't know I was home. They did "stuff." I woke up and could hear almost everything. I vomitted. After that, I knew there was no way I could ever be with her again and I moved out within the day. Note that I'm not saying this is how your situation will play out, but you may be heading for similar heartbreak and emotional turbulence.

Okay, that said, I suppose I'll try to explain, without justifying, my actions in the questioned circumstances:

The story of "E"In the first situation, the young woman - let's call her "E" - was the roommate of a friend of mine during college. E had recently returned from a year studying abroad in Japan and was getting re-acclimated to life in the states. She'd had limited contact, by phone, with her boyfriend while in Japan and had seen him maybe twice since returning. When the school semester started she frequently complained about him not being able to 'handle' her having been overseas and them being separate for so long. Since her roommate was a friend of mine, we frequently ate lunch together with our other friends. As it turned out, we had a class together, too. As the semester progressed, she continued to argue with her boyfriend over the phone and want to talk with someone about it afterwards. Since her roommate was frequently in class at the time, she would call me since I was the "safest" other person she knew at the college at the time. Honestly, I never wanted/expected to be in a relationship with her because I knew she intended to go back overseas ASAP and I had no intention of getting into a similar situation as her boyfriend; I was trying to be a good friend. I guess you can call that 'taking advantage' if you want, but I don't think I did. Heck, if anything, I kept her in that relationship with him far longer than she otherwise would have since I continually tried to give her advice for working out their issues. Eventually, she called me and told me that she'd broken up with her boyfriend over the phone and just wanted to get out of her dorm room for a while. I empathized with her situation and agree to meet her at the local Dairy Queen, since she loved soft-serve and planned on using ice cream as comfort food. She got her ice cream and we walked/talked about the situation. Eventually, she wanted to go to my dorm because she was a fan of Space Ghost: Coast to Coast and I had some of the episodes on VHS. We'd watched maybe 45 minutes of the show, mostly in silence other than laughter, when she suddenly told me that she "liked" me. I shut off the tape and we talked about the situation. I tried to be empathetic but logical, reminding her that I was leaving for Colorado in the spring and she was probably going back to Japan in a year or two, that our lives were heading in different, irreconcilable directions. She started crying. I couldn't handle crying. I relented, and told her we could try to make it work 'for now.' That turned into a recurring theme in our "relationship" - her crying and me giving in. I've since steeled my heart to that particular form of manipulation. We were more-or-less continually together from September until December of that year; until just before leaving from winter vacation from school, when my fourth attempt to break up finally 'took.' In the end, I think E probably manipulated and 'took advantage' of me more than I did her. At the same time, though, I really owe her a lot since she taught me to beware being guilt-tripped through tears and also because it was her that finally got me to seek help for my depression issues. We talked a little the next semester, but not much. She soon moved on to another guy soon after the semester started, which I figured was none of my business. She's now living in Taiwan and, apparently, happily married to a local. I say, 'good for her, it looks like she got what she really wanted all along.'

The story of "J"I met J shortly after moving to Colorado, the fall following my break-up with E, almost a year after I'd met E. My first encounter with J was when I went to see her about these scholastic clubs the school sponsored, called FIGs (First-year Interest Groups). She was the "FIG-mentor" for the biology FIG, of which I was co-opt'd into when I registered for classes the previous spring. When I first met J, she was sitting in her dorm room with her boyfriend, watching some TV show. I didn't know this at the time, but he was there visiting her from where he was attending college in Pittsburg. After he left, in a couple days, they didn't expect to see each other again until winter vacation. The next time I saw her, though, she told me the whole story about him and her (which was actually sort of odd, considering I don't remember asking...), about how they were high school 'sweethearts' but were now in a long-distance relationship. She told me it was hard for her being in a relationship like that. I remember thinking 'okay... :smallconfused:'. Over the course of the next couple weeks, we saw a lot of each other since she lived just down the hall in the dorm and, because I was trying to make friends in an unfamiliar place, I attended all of the FIG meetings. I had just moved from Iowa to Colorado and I didn't know a single person there, after all. As it turned out, though, the FIG attendence dropped off to the point where it was usually just her, myself, and other student who would regularly attend the meetings. They were my first friends out there so I ended up spending a lot of time with them. Until the other person dropped out of school because of an apparently near-terminal case of homesickness... :smallconfused: Anyway, J and I became close and spent a lot of time together. Maybe too much time, but I hardly knew anyone there and I'm fairly introverted so I just made do. I do remember talking with her long-distance boyfriend over the phone and him chewing me out for trying to 'get with' his girlfriend. I was honestly bewildered, though, I hadn't even considered that being a concern. Maybe I'm just being naive or stupid, I don't know, but I think that phone call was the first time I'd ever thought of her as something other than just a friend... By September we were an 'item,' though and I honestly have no idea who made the first move or even if you could say 'moves' were made. We sort of just ended up together because of circumstances. We were both lonely, maybe, and found comfort in each other. If it's any consolation, after three-and-a-half years of being together, J was the woman I was living with in the horrible, spoiler'd basement situation above... :smallfrown: Edit: she's now living in Arizona with the guy from the basement situation and their son.

Ninja Chocobo

2008-12-08, 03:51 AM

part of overcoming that is consciously insisting that you are a good person and that you do not want to feel this way.

Ah, this would do it.
See, I'm not a good person. I kinda forgot that when I was replying to you. I'd like to be a better one, sure, but I don't think there's a way how.

technically none of this stuff is bad in and of itself,

You're joking, right?

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 04:16 AM

Ah, this would do it.
See, I'm not a good person. I kinda forgot that when I was replying to you. I'd like to be a better one, sure, but I don't think there's a way how.

See, I used to worry a lot if I was a 'good' person.

Eventually, though, I realized that I don't really care if I'm a 'good' person so long as I'm accepted, appreciated, and loved for being the twisted freak person I am by the like-minded sadists people I've come to hunger for care about.

I'd like say that, over the years, I've come to regard you all as... people... I... met. [/Rimmer]

@V: Well, I'm also the sort to carry stress in my digestive system. I don't get tense muscles. And that occurred in the spring of 2005 so it's memory is fading with time. It certainly changed my understanding of what it means to suffer, though.

Coidzor

2008-12-08, 05:04 AM

Oh god man... No wonder you vomited. I feel queasy just from reading about it. I mean, the white castle isn't helping anything, but... wow. I mean... my stomach is in knots just trying to imagine that sort of situation and failing. I'm sorry things had to go out like that. :smallfrown:

Kinda has dampened my jubiliation at being quoted in a context as to illustrate someone else's point from a bit earlier.

Complicated sexual entities are complicated. x y is x.

Felixaar

2008-12-08, 07:13 AM

GW, that's definitely a bad situation to be in. I'd say it's the danger of having a semi-relationship with a roommate. It's a bit late, but I'm sorry at any rate.

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 09:18 AM

GW, that's definitely a bad situation to be in. I'd say it's the danger of having a semi-relationship with a roommate. It's a bit late, but I'm sorry at any rate.

Well, my attitude towards the whole experience is more-or-less 'you live, you learn' anymore. I got through all of it pretty much intact but for some emotional scarring. Listened to a lot of Crossfade, who I now can't help but associate with that relationship (both the good and bad times, though). I know we both did things at the end that we regret. I talked with her via e-mail a couple times about a year and a half after I moved back to Iowa and, though we'll probably never talk or see each other again, I know that things are sort-of okay between us now. Or, at least, our individual feelings of resentment towards each other have reached acceptable levels. :smallwink:

Syka

2008-12-08, 09:20 AM

Serp, to clarify. Some of my guy friend's I've been potentially interested in, others not at all. However, those I were interested in, the attraction faded the more I got to know them due to basic incompatibilities in things such as lifestyle choice (one in particular- I'm a teetotaler and have asthma/can't stand the smell of smoke, one of my guy friends I was formerly interested in drinks like a fish and smokes like a chimney), etc. It's not so much "We've been friends too long" as "I realize that we are different enough that a romantic relationship would not work." It's what my boyfriend and his ex went through, but they actually had a relationship. They realized that as great as they were as friends, they made horrible lovers.

Even the guy friend I mentioned above said we make great friends but a relationship just couldn't happen. Despite our attraction, we both realized it would never work (trust me, I love the kid, but we're too different in what we need and want, in general out of life, not just in a relationship).

Hope that clears it up.

Serpentine

2008-12-08, 09:26 AM

I thought it'd be something like that. Coolios.

GW: Right, this is bugging me. I can remain silent no longer!
Stop using "anymore" incorrectly! Or at least weirdly! Cease and desist, lest the Hammer of Righteous Thinking descend upon thee!

potatocubed

2008-12-08, 09:48 AM

While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of Serp'tine gently rapping, rapping with her big hammor.
Quoth the warlock, "Anymore".

:smalltongue:

Apologies to Poe. Please don't haunt me.

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 09:59 AM

Serpentine

2008-12-08, 10:02 AM

I looked it up, which is why I added the "weirdly", cuz you are maybe technically correct. Guess I always use it with the first definition.
Still. Weird =.=

Cristo Meyers

2008-12-08, 10:04 AM

See kids, this is why you should always discuss grammar with your partner.

Don't let an adverb tear your relationship apart. :smalltongue:

ghost_warlock

2008-12-08, 10:09 AM

Hm. This may just be one of those word-usage things that doesn't translate across an ocean.

Edit: Also, I was brought up/eductated in Iowa, which may be relevant. :smalltongue:

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-08, 10:32 AM

I've been getting annoyed at a few people at my school that are starting to bug me(on purpose) This idea was cemented in my mind when one of them decided it would be fun to see if he could throw hangers at me while in a dark room, right before we had to go on stage for a concert. This guy has done all of the following: shot an air soft gun at me, decided to make an annoying song (A parody of the badger song) using my name and spread it around the school, and hiding my backpack while I used the restroom. At least twice. Consider that this is only one person, and technically none of this stuff is bad in and of itself, its more of the fact that he does it to intentionally get on my nerves. If I cut off all communication verbal or otherwise with him, do you think he get the gist of what I'm trying to show and bugger off, or at least tone down on the annoyance, or should I try something else?(And no, I'm not going to go bug a teacher. This isn't overall that big of a deal, I just don't want to have to deal with it)

Yay for ranty posts... advice?

what you describe amounts to bullying. If he shoots you with an airsoft gun in school immediately report him. The rest... that can be handled in other ways

In this situation, the worst thing you can do is show your annoyance. It spurs them on trying to see how much of a rise they can get out of you, and if they know they can get it, they will come back time and time again. There are a few 'correct' responses to it (depending on your morals)

1) crippling put down. (good for the bag situation)
If you're still in school, the simple allusion to your rejection of their sexual advances is usually enough (especially if they're of the same gender - teenagers can be very insecure about their sexuality. Sad but true.). This ranks low on the creativity scale, but usually does the trick, especially if don't over egg it.

A perfect example, from my college days was when there was a short lived spree of me and few friends handcuffing each other to various things (teenagers + handcuffs = cheap laughs and mischief). One of my friends, on a mission to gain revenge for handcuffing him to a bench at break, tried to cuff me to a table in a lesson. Fortunately your humble protagonist avoided such a feeble effort and loudly proclaimed "Look, [friendsname]. I've told you already. Im not interested in you in that way. Stop trying to hold my hand".... cue cringe-of-death from him as he turned as red as a stop light. A good and simple shaming is usually enough. Modify it to your situation. Apply. Shame.

its got to provide enough embaressment to make him think twice about doing something again, while looking effortless enough to make it look spur of the moment

bare in mind that was almost 3/4 of a decade ago in terms of the maturity scale

2) Speak to a friend, see why hes doing it.

3) Ignore him.

4) Pull a stunt of you own.
Make sure it enduces a shame factor that will make him think twice about acting again. I'd really advise against this as it may lead to all sorts of repercusions/get-back, and may just esculate things. Only really worth doing if you can REALLY turn the screw in a single decisive action that you know will bring the shame of the century.

5) Take the power of the pranks away from him. (re: the singing of your name to badger badger badger)

lap it up. Start clapping along, smiling and join in the singing - encourage it. See if you can get the whole canteen singing it one day at lunch. Hell, get up on the table lead the singing if you have to. For a few minutes everyone will know your name, and he'll still be a faceless no-one. You may get a bit of teacher based flack for it, but as long as you keep some backbone through-out, and don't whinge about it, you should be ok.

If you show that the attention is distressing you, rather than boosting your ego, then it will only continue. The minute you turn the tables and show you enjoy the attention is the minute he can no longer use it to wind you up

Neko Toast

2008-12-08, 11:03 AM

Hm. This may just be one of those word-usage things that doesn't translate across an ocean.

Edit: Also, I was brought up/eductated in Iowa, which may be relevant. :smalltongue:

Well, it is Iowa... *is native to Wisconsin*
Just be glad you weren't brought up/educated in Illinois.

Sorry, that was off-topic.

Haven't really posted in here for a while, not that I needed to. Nothing's changed, really.

Cristo Meyers

2008-12-08, 11:11 AM

Well, it is Iowa... *is native to Wisconsin*
Just be glad you weren't brought up/educated in Illinois

:smalltongue:

Neko Toast

2008-12-08, 11:12 AM

:smalltongue:

Do you know the meaning of the acronym FIB, Cristo?

Syka

2008-12-08, 12:57 PM

Well, it is Iowa... *is native to Wisconsin*
Just be glad you weren't brought up/educated in Illinois.

Sorry, that was off-topic.

Haven't really posted in here for a while, not that I needed to. Nothing's changed, really.

Hey now, the boyfriend is from Illinois. ;) Granted, he left the minute he was able to, but still...hehe.

Vampiric

2008-12-08, 01:22 PM

Do you know the meaning of the acronym FIB, Cristo?

Don't you mean FBI (http://www.choiceshirts.com/item/A2027D/)? :smallwink:

averagejoe

2008-12-08, 01:35 PM

Ah, this would do it.
See, I'm not a good person. I kinda forgot that when I was replying to you. I'd like to be a better one, sure, but I don't think there's a way how.

Of course there's a way how. It's never too late to change.

skywalker

2008-12-08, 04:37 PM

Okay, where to begin...
Well, I suppose that maybe I'll start with your specific question, do I think he was 'right' to text your somewhat-girlfriend inappropriate things? Well, I'm not actually sure. I'm not sure if this is something I could give a yes or no answer to. On one hand, I realize that it was emotionally hurtful for you and if she's committed to her relationship with you it was probably out of line. On the other hand, if she's not as committed to the relationship and you do have trust issues with her, this sort of thing is probably going to continue, if only in your mind, and eventually spiral out of control. You cannot be in a healthy relationship with someone you cannot trust. It's really as simple as that. Whether or not she's still texting, or doing other things, you're likely always going to be afraid that she is and feel insecure about the situation. Sometimes, 'if you love them, let them go' is really good advice. :smallfrown:

I've been there. If you want to know how the situation eventually resolved itself, click the spoiler. Not for the faint of heart/stomach.I was living in the same house as a girl I was sort-of-seeing like you are with your lady. We had separete bedrooms, mine being in the finished basement of the house, directly under her room. She brought another guy home while I happened to be there, sleeping. She didn't know I was home. They did "stuff." I woke up and could hear almost everything. I vomitted. After that, I knew there was no way I could ever be with her again and I moved out within the day. Note that I'm not saying this is how your situation will play out, but you may be heading for similar heartbreak and emotional turbulence.

Okay, that said, I suppose I'll try to explain, without justifying, my actions in the questioned circumstances:

The story of "E"In the first situation, the young woman - let's call her "E" - was the roommate of a friend of mine during college. E had recently returned from a year studying abroad in Japan and was getting re-acclimated to life in the states. She'd had limited contact, by phone, with her boyfriend while in Japan and had seen him maybe twice since returning. When the school semester started she frequently complained about him not being able to 'handle' her having been overseas and them being separate for so long. Since her roommate was a friend of mine, we frequently ate lunch together with our other friends. As it turned out, we had a class together, too. As the semester progressed, she continued to argue with her boyfriend over the phone and want to talk with someone about it afterwards. Since her roommate was frequently in class at the time, she would call me since I was the "safest" other person she knew at the college at the time. Honestly, I never wanted/expected to be in a relationship with her because I knew she intended to go back overseas ASAP and I had no intention of getting into a similar situation as her boyfriend; I was trying to be a good friend. I guess you can call that 'taking advantage' if you want, but I don't think I did. Heck, if anything, I kept her in that relationship with him far longer than she otherwise would have since I continually tried to give her advice for working out their issues. Eventually, she called me and told me that she'd broken up with her boyfriend over the phone and just wanted to get out of her dorm room for a while. I empathized with her situation and agree to meet her at the local Dairy Queen, since she loved soft-serve and planned on using ice cream as comfort food. She got her ice cream and we walked/talked about the situation. Eventually, she wanted to go to my dorm because she was a fan of Space Ghost: Coast to Coast and I had some of the episodes on VHS. We'd watched maybe 45 minutes of the show, mostly in silence other than laughter, when she suddenly told me that she "liked" me. I shut off the tape and we talked about the situation. I tried to be empathetic but logical, reminding her that I was leaving for Colorado in the spring and she was probably going back to Japan in a year or two, that our lives were heading in different, irreconcilable directions. She started crying. I couldn't handle crying. I relented, and told her we could try to make it work 'for now.' That turned into a recurring theme in our "relationship" - her crying and me giving in. I've since steeled my heart to that particular form of manipulation. We were more-or-less continually together from September until December of that year; until just before leaving from winter vacation from school, when my fourth attempt to break up finally 'took.' In the end, I think E probably manipulated and 'took advantage' of me more than I did her. At the same time, though, I really owe her a lot since she taught me to beware being guilt-tripped through tears and also because it was her that finally got me to seek help for my depression issues. We talked a little the next semester, but not much. She soon moved on to another guy soon after the semester started, which I figured was none of my business. She's now living in Taiwan and, apparently, happily married to a local. I say, 'good for her, it looks like she got what she really wanted all along.'

The story of "J"I met J shortly after moving to Colorado, the fall following my break-up with E, almost a year after I'd met E. My first encounter with J was when I went to see her about these scholastic clubs the school sponsored, called FIGs (First-year Interest Groups). She was the "FIG-mentor" for the biology FIG, of which I was co-opt'd into when I registered for classes the previous spring. When I first met J, she was sitting in her dorm room with her boyfriend, watching some TV show. I didn't know this at the time, but he was there visiting her from where he was attending college in Pittsburg. After he left, in a couple days, they didn't expect to see each other again until winter vacation. The next time I saw her, though, she told me the whole story about him and her (which was actually sort of odd, considering I don't remember asking...), about how they were high school 'sweethearts' but were now in a long-distance relationship. She told me it was hard for her being in a relationship like that. I remember thinking 'okay... :smallconfused:'. Over the course of the next couple weeks, we saw a lot of each other since she lived just down the hall in the dorm and, because I was trying to make friends in an unfamiliar place, I attended all of the FIG meetings. I had just moved from Iowa to Colorado and I didn't know a single person there, after all. As it turned out, though, the FIG attendence dropped off to the point where it was usually just her, myself, and other student who would regularly attend the meetings. They were my first friends out there so I ended up spending a lot of time with them. Until the other person dropped out of school because of an apparently near-terminal case of homesickness... :smallconfused: Anyway, J and I became close and spent a lot of time together. Maybe too much time, but I hardly knew anyone there and I'm fairly introverted so I just made do. I do remember talking with her long-distance boyfriend over the phone and him chewing me out for trying to 'get with' his girlfriend. I was honestly bewildered, though, I hadn't even considered that being a concern. Maybe I'm just being naive or stupid, I don't know, but I think that phone call was the first time I'd ever thought of her as something other than just a friend... By September we were an 'item,' though and I honestly have no idea who made the first move or even if you could say 'moves' were made. We sort of just ended up together because of circumstances. We were both lonely, maybe, and found comfort in each other. If it's any consolation, after three-and-a-half years of being together, J was the woman I was living with in the horrible, spoiler'd basement situation above... :smallfrown: Edit: she's now living in Arizona with the guy from the basement situation and their son.

Okay, so, first off, that really sucks that you had to go through that. Like, hardcore. I'm sorry. I think both of those situations aren't exactly what I was envisioning. I definitely think E did manipulate you moreso than you her, altho we don't have the whole story here. Still, tho, you contributed to someone breaking her promise to someone else. No, you didn't break the promise, and no, you may not have even convinced her to, but you were still a part of the promise-breaking. And I think that's bad-news bears. Those situations have mitigating circumstances, but then again, they all do. I think you contributed to wrong doing. Maybe we should agree to disagree.

As for my situation, I loved something, I let it go, it slept with someone else, told me it screwed up by sleeping with someone else, and eventually decided it wanted me back. Right now, it's probably the one not letting go, honestly. I think what really gets me about the situation is, the guy in question was my friend, and his comments (which included "I want to be your man." "I can treat you better than him." and "I love you.") came about 5 days after we all hung out and he told her "You guys are obviously so great together. I'm sorry I ever even thought about coming between that." Ok, thanks bro. You can have this stiletto back out of my kidneys any time now.

I'm doing my best to be secure, I think trust issues don't necessarily spiral out of control all the time, especially if you have the proper tools to work thru them. It's just this middle part that sucks.

Once again, I'm truly sorry you had to experience the vomit thing. That royally sucks. I can actually imagine being there. Whoa :smallfrown:

Archpaladin Zousha

2008-12-08, 06:52 PM

Does this thread help with relationships such as friendship and such? I'm having an issue with some friends lately that I can't figure out how to help.:smallsigh:

Dragonrider

2008-12-08, 07:01 PM

Does this thread help with relationships such as friendship and such? I'm having an issue with some friends lately that I can't figure out how to help.:smallsigh:

Ask away. We take all kinds of questions/woes/mysteries of the universe. :smallsmile:

memnarch

2008-12-08, 07:05 PM

Archpaladin Zousha

2008-12-08, 07:07 PM

I've got several friends on another forum, and I'm feeling torn between them.

One of them's been feeling really down lately. Apparently doesn't have any friends left, his parents are mean to him and he can't get a job.

He has taken a dislike to several other posters I am also friends with. One of these friends I regard as a very wise person. This very wise person says the other friend thinks he's an ******* because:

I'm tired of his self rightous pity parties. He thinks i'm an ******* because i don't dote on him like the spoiled child he wants to be, and because i called him a jerk for yaking about the fact that he cybered with me.

He's mad at another poster because she broke his heart (she's the forum's resident hypersexual), and the other two he's mad at I'm not sure why he's mad at them.

So he comes to me all depressed-like and I feel like it's my job to help, and to try and patch things up with the other members of the community. I feel like if we don't have solidarity as a community we're gonna end up breaking apart and going our seperate ways. Plus I'm worried this guy might go over the edge if this depression thing keeps going.

I want to help everyone in this, but I don't knwo where to start or what to do, and I feel like all I can do is type impotent words of consolement and send them to him.:smallsigh:

Gray Jester

2008-12-08, 08:02 PM

I would like some advice in general about holding conversation with people. To be specific, the small talk kind; I'm usually in the background (quiet and by myself), but I occasionally get into a conversation with someone and then I have no idea what to talk about. Ideas? Suggestions?

Good subjects include, but are not limited to:

The weather
Current events
The person who you are talking to (Most people are -usually- willing to go on for -hours- about themselves. Just figure out a few good questions)
Shared interests
Funny stories (Best when told dramatically.)
How cool *x* is (Some cool fact you picked up on wikipedia. If you tell it right, people will be like "Whoa!". If you tell ten of them right, scattered through your conversation, people will think you're intelligent.)
Girls, if you're both guys, or guys, if you're both girls. How confusing they are is a -popular- subject, and many guys/girls can go on at length about just how weird the opposite gender is.

Bad subjects include, but are not limited to:
Politics (unless they agree with you, or it's a debate, they tend to bring up feelings best left for the line before voting)
Religion (See politics, then add belief.)
Controversial subjects (See religion, politics, and consider abortion, gay rights, video games, etc.)
Computers/Video Games/Geeky things (at length), unless they are also interested in such. If this falls under 'shared interest', then it's not bad, otherwise, people will yawn when they hear about how awesome your new quad core, 2.2 Ghz, 64 bit, 6 GB RAM computer is. On the other hand, if you just did get a quad core, 2.2ghz, 6 GB RAM computer, you -totally- have bragging rights over the plebians who're still using 32 bit processors and don't even dual core processors. At least, in -my- opinion. (*CoughguesswhatIjustgotcough*)

Oh right, and advice. Just bring them up when the current conversational thread seems to have ended, or even before (and then you can switch back to the previous subject, if you feel so inclined: as long as you've gotten part way through the story and finish most of them, it's not all that hard). Oh, and if you're still struggling, look at the news, wikipedia, etc. and prepare a 20 to 30 minute set of chats/questions/etc. with time left for them to reply/add their opinion, etc., to use at the party/event/throughout the day. Also, the only way to get good at small talk is to practice it, so you might be well served by detaching your back from the wall and meeting people, practicing making small talk.

Felixaar

2008-12-08, 08:18 PM

Ask away. We take all kinds of questions/woes/mysteries of the universe. :smallsmile:

Including those man was not meant to know! *waves arms about and makes eerie ghost noises*

memnarch, some of us aren't really suited to conversation - for instance, I am typically only good at conversation when the person I am talking to is either doing all the question asking, or a particularly interesting person. It's important to ask people questions in return to continue a convesation but every now and then you just have to write it off as loss because they're so damn boring (lookin' at you, me). At any rate, just jump in whenever you wonder something about the other person, and ask them about themselves. Or, if you've been thinking about something recently, discuss it with them! and fear not, you'll improve. I certainly have.

Zousha, wise friend is wise. This other one sounds like a pain in the ass who is unlikely to much improve. Sounds harsh, but some people just never change, simply because they don't have the will to do so - as terrible as ones life may be, it seems they always believe it easier to sit around and complain. Perhaps you should give up the consoling words - so long as he goes on receiving the pity he's looking for, he'll never change. A harsh shock might be just what he needs to pull him out. But... I don't know. Be very very careful, since some people get a harsh shock and become better for it, and some do much much worse things, like suicide. Whatever you do, do it cautiously. Sorry I wasn't able to help more :smallfrown:

Cheers, all.

Syka

2008-12-08, 10:09 PM

On small talk: I found finding a common TV show/movie interest always gets the ball rolling. Or music. It can either spawn reminiscing and finding similar things or a nice debate.

Kuma Da

2008-12-09, 12:02 AM

Zousha,

your friend sounds like he's stuck in a massive self-esteem pit. I mean, he's having trouble getting a job (that's a serious kick to the self-worth of some guys,) his parents are at him (or that's how he interprets it. It doesn't matter either way, unless you want to focus in on fixing that problem. If so, good luck man. You know the situation better than I do,) he got his heart broken by one girl, and another girl (maybe guy? I don't know his orientation,) thinks he's an utter tool.

So, basically, he's got a ton of pressure coming in on him. The way he processes that pressure seems to be lashing out moodily at people, but that's not to put blame on him. I think I'd do the same in his shoes.

Unfortunately, the anger/moodiness isn't helping him fix any of his problems. It's only making them worse, which in turn leads to him getting angrier, etc. This is a downward spiral, and could conceivably become a serious problem. I'm glad you're looking to do something about it.

While it is conceivably possible for him to resolve all this on his own, it's much easier if someone else steps in and gives him a hand. And I don't mean 'easier' in the sense of 'taking the easy way out', I mean it in the sense of 'saving a lot of pain and stress.' Which is generally a good thing to do.

-

Alright. That's enough analysis. Let's move on to actually solving the problem.

Basically, your friend has low self-esteem. If you can give him a jump-start to that self-esteem, you might be able to remind him that he has some control over the situation that he's in, instead of being a worthless lump undeserving of salvation (which is silly, but when people get far enough down they can start thinking like that.) So now the problem becomes a matter of giving him back his confidence without a) sounding like you're trying to inflate his ego, or b) sending entirely the wrong signals.

Telling a guy that he should value himself a little bit more has always been harder for me than telling a girl the same thing. With girls, simply telling them that they're prettier or more capable than they think (provided you're being sincere,) can be really effective. If you tell a guy that he's strong and capable, it comes off as slightly weird at best and a come-on at worst. And that's if you're being sincere. (note: this restriction does not apply if you're a girl.)

If you're trying to boost a guy's self-esteem, one of the most effective phrases that I've found is "I respect you." It works equally well as a way to soften the blow of any harsh advice you might have to give.

Aside from letting this guy know that you still think he's a decent person (i.e. reminding him that he still has friends,) the best things you can do for him is to listen to him and maybe to try and troubleshoot some of his problems (like letting him know that he accidentally offended your wise friend when he talked about cybering with her, and possibly sympathizing by saying that it was an easy mistake to make, but still a mistake to apologize for.) That should take some of the stress off of him.

With persistence and a little bit of luck, he should get out of the pattern that he's in.

I hope all of this helps.

Serpentine

2008-12-09, 12:05 AM

TFT

2008-12-09, 12:23 AM

what you describe amounts to bullying. If he shoots you with an airsoft gun in school immediately report him. The rest... that can be handled in other ways

In this situation, the worst thing you can do is show your annoyance. It spurs them on trying to see how much of a rise they can get out of you, and if they know they can get it, they will come back time and time again. There are a few 'correct' responses to it (depending on your morals)

1) crippling put down. (good for the bag situation)
If you're still in school, the simple allusion to your rejection of their sexual advances is usually enough (especially if they're of the same gender - teenagers can be very insecure about their sexuality. Sad but true.). This ranks low on the creativity scale, but usually does the trick, especially if don't over egg it.

A perfect example, from my college days was when there was a short lived spree of me and few friends handcuffing each other to various things (teenagers + handcuffs = cheap laughs and mischief). One of my friends, on a mission to gain revenge for handcuffing him to a bench at break, tried to cuff me to a table in a lesson. Fortunately your humble protagonist avoided such a feeble effort and loudly proclaimed "Look, [friendsname]. I've told you already. Im not interested in you in that way. Stop trying to hold my hand".... cue cringe-of-death from him as he turned as red as a stop light. A good and simple shaming is usually enough. Modify it to your situation. Apply. Shame.

its got to provide enough embaressment to make him think twice about doing something again, while looking effortless enough to make it look spur of the moment

bare in mind that was almost 3/4 of a decade ago in terms of the maturity scale

2) Speak to a friend, see why hes doing it.

3) Ignore him.

4) Pull a stunt of you own.
Make sure it enduces a shame factor that will make him think twice about acting again. I'd really advise against this as it may lead to all sorts of repercusions/get-back, and may just esculate things. Only really worth doing if you can REALLY turn the screw in a single decisive action that you know will bring the shame of the century.

5) Take the power of the pranks away from him. (re: the singing of your name to badger badger badger)

lap it up. Start clapping along, smiling and join in the singing - encourage it. See if you can get the whole canteen singing it one day at lunch. Hell, get up on the table lead the singing if you have to. For a few minutes everyone will know your name, and he'll still be a faceless no-one. You may get a bit of teacher based flack for it, but as long as you keep some backbone through-out, and don't whinge about it, you should be ok.

If you show that the attention is distressing you, rather than boosting your ego, then it will only continue. The minute you turn the tables and show you enjoy the attention is the minute he can no longer use it to wind you up

Now, I guess I should have added the fact that this school is only about 100 kids big, so everyone knows practically everyone...

I guess I will stick with the badger song thing. Along with him, there were at least 4-5 other people joining in.

So overall, some of your advice is useful, but some of it is inapplicable. I will try to do a couple of these things, unless the situation calls for something else.

Also, to the other person who replied: Yes some of it is bad, but it is all bearable, even if I would like it to stop.

skywalker

2008-12-09, 12:30 AM

One of many things one can learn from Animorphs: A conversation is just a series of questions. You ask them a question, listen to their answer, and then they ask you a question, and you give them an answer, and so on. If they don't ask, you keep asking them. Then, if all goes well, a conversation should blossom.

Yes!

This forum should have an Animorphs reference at least weekly.

RabbitHoleLost

2008-12-09, 03:28 AM

I... went on a date earlier.
This guy...I've nothing in common with him. We don't like the same things and he has horrid taste in music. His intellect is not enough to stimulate me.
There's no hope for romance.
I enjoy spending time with him, but we do nothing that endears him to me more than any other friend, aside from the cuddling during a movie.
I'm not sure if I'm continuing to see him out of a lack of any other option, or if its because I'm wondering where this might go.

Er...I guess there isn't much advice that can be given, and I rather just wanted to type out my thoughts.

InaVegt

2008-12-09, 03:31 AM

I say you should just ditch him, Rabbit.

Serpentine

2008-12-09, 03:43 AM

I've been getting annoyed at a few people at my school that are starting to bug me(on purpose) This idea was cemented in my mind when one of them decided it would be fun to see if he could throw hangers at me while in a dark room, right before we had to go on stage for a concert. This guy has done all of the following: shot an air soft gun at me, decided to make an annoying song (A parody of the badger song) using my name and spread it around the school, and hiding my backpack while I used the restroom. At least twice. Consider that this is only one person, and technically none of this stuff is bad in and of itself, its more of the fact that he does it to intentionally get on my nerves. If I cut off all communication verbal or otherwise with him, do you think he get the gist of what I'm trying to show and bugger off, or at least tone down on the annoyance, or should I try something else?(And no, I'm not going to go bug a teacher. This isn't overall that big of a deal, I just don't want to have to deal with it)

Yay for ranty posts... advice?What you said about cutting off all communication sounds like it might be a friend-like sort of a person. Assuming they're not, and this is more or less a case of bullying, I was thinking about it today and had an idea. Now, this would be very experimental, but it could also be fun. It's based on three premises:
1. The ol' turn-the-mockery-back-on-the-mocker stock solution,
2. People don't like having to think about why they do what they do, and
3. Bullies rely on a lack of direct, civil confrontation.
Psychoanalyse him and his behaviour. Question everything he does. Be direct with no hint of complaint or distress but merely intellectual curiosity. Ask him why he's done something ("What was the purpose of hiding my bag?"), how it makes him feel ("Tell me, does it give you a feeling of power?"), why it's so funny ("Interesting... The Badger Song is an amusing but benevolent tune, with no detectable object of ridicule. Yet your version of it, based on the context and subject, is intended to be a sort of insult. Where is it, exactly, that this new undertone comes from?", "Is it an example of shaedenfraud (sp?), or a more generic slapstick humour?"), his conciousness of its wider effects ("Are you aware of the effect of this on the victim's, i.e. my, psyche? Does this enhance your experience, or is it simply not considered?"). Always stay calm and unruffled, with a facade of intellectual curiosity. If you're into psychology or sociology, the results could be genuinely interesting.
If you want to kick it up a notch, you could more actively mess with him. You probably wouldn't want to actually take notes while you're talking to him, but you could get yourself a notepad, and sit in class alternately gazing thoughtfully at him and writing in it. I don't know whether it'd be better to keep staring at him if he sees you looking or to quickly look away. If you're really determined (and/or worried about being sprung) you could actually write notes on your discoveries.
Just an idea. If you give it a shot, tell me how it goes.

Skywalker: Didn't you say that last time I gave that advice? :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2008-12-09, 05:07 AM

I'm not quite sure if I should remember that your animorphs reference was a burn and comment upon this fact or if I should be amused and approve of the point it had in the broader thread. So I'll just go with the effect it had given our context and call it good. So, kudos, mademoiselle.

Rabbit. Seriously? Continuing? How long has this been going on? How serious has it gotten? Are you kinda depressed that there's no one else and so you're just in it to be doing something?

JeminiZero

2008-12-09, 05:27 AM

I'm not sure if I'm continuing to see him out of a lack of any other option, or if its because I'm wondering where this might go.

IIRC, you were suffering from romantic burnout. Whether you want to give him (and yourself) a chance is ultimately up to you. Otherwise, you should make it clear to him where the relationship is heading (i.e. into 'Just Friends' territory).

Hadrian_Emrys

2008-12-09, 05:45 AM

Rabbit, if there's nothing there's nothing there. I'd aim for weaning things down to being friends. Odds are that you're to have some drama in your near future though.

xPANCAKEx

2008-12-09, 11:59 AM

RabbitHoleLost - nothing wrong with carrying on dating the guy, just so long as you make it clear you're not interested in a relationship with him. Focus on the aspects you do enjoy, and it could make for an enjoyable evening here and there. At least if you're honest, and can get what you want (more cuddling, im guessing?), then if hes willing its on his head to continue

and if hes not willing - no loss to you. You can find another cuddle buddy elsewhere

RabbitHoleLost

2008-12-09, 12:54 PM

Eh, I'm fairly certain he feels the same way; I mean, how can you feel anything if there's nothing in common? We have physical chemistry, and that's really it. He's not all that eager to be emotional around me, so I'm assuming its a mutual thing.
Either way, I'll try to talk to him about it to make sure its certain between us.

Zarrexaij

2008-12-09, 01:57 PM

SQUEE!!!

I finally talked to the guy in my CS class. Turns out, he's not a CS major (electrical engineer). We had lunch together.... for an hour. It was nice talking to him; we shared important things in common. He's very more intelligent than I thought. Unfortunately, he seems to be quite busy with finals and studying so I might have to wait awhile until doing this again with him.

I have his email.

...unfortunately, he lives in Texas >.< so yeah, he's leaving Thursday night to go back for a bit. I suppose we can talk over the break.

Sub_Zero

2008-12-09, 02:01 PM

Yaaayyy, you talked to him!:smallsmile:

Don't worry though, that was the hardest step, and you even got his e-mail woop. Sounds good if you have things in common, keep going at it and good luck

RabbitHoleLost

2008-12-09, 02:01 PM

Congrats, Zarre!
I'm proud of you :smallbiggrin:

Zarrexaij

2008-12-09, 02:09 PM

Does that mean I win?

I sorta felt like he was shutting me down since I asked him if he wanted to watch a movie with me, and every date I could think of was taken. :smallamused: It is finals week though, and I got his email.

Hells yeah. Email means I can have another chance.

Pyrian

2008-12-09, 02:20 PM

This guy...I've nothing in common with him. We don't like the same things and he has horrid taste in music. His intellect is not enough to stimulate me.So, wait, what, is he hot?

Eh, I'm fairly certain he feels the same way; I mean, how can you feel anything if there's nothing in common? We have physical chemistry, and that's really it.Ah, I see. :smallcool: Don't underestimate physical chemistry. It's kind of like chocolate... Very tempting, very bad as a sole diet, yet I wouldn't want to live without it, either. :smallbiggrin:

Sub_Zero

2008-12-09, 02:22 PM

Ah, I see. :smallcool: Don't underestimate physical chemistry. It's kind of like chocolate... Very tempting, very bad as a sole diet, yet I wouldn't want to live without it, either. :smallbiggrin:

That is the best analogy I've ever heard. Not only because it's right:smallbiggrin:

RabbitHoleLost

2008-12-09, 02:24 PM

So, wait, what, is he hot?
Facially, no. But his body is amazing, as is his hair, and he makes me laugh >>

Ah, I see. :smallcool: Don't underestimate physical chemistry. It's kind of like chocolate... Very tempting, very bad as a sole diet, yet I wouldn't want to live without it, either. :smallbiggrin:
We'll see if I can live off of chocolate and laughter for a while :smallwink:

Zarre: Well, seeing as it IS finals coming up soon, he's probably incredibly busy. You should continue to chat with him via Email over the break, and resume the chase when next semester kicks back in

Immutep

2008-12-09, 02:25 PM

[QUOTE=Zarrexaij;5444893]Does that mean I win?QUOTE]

It's not a game Zarrexaij!
I'd advise a little caution as things seem very delicately balanced and too much or not enough work could see them toppling. Vague i know and for that i'm sorry, but thats the trouble with relationships, if they were easy then this thread wouldn't exist.

Zarrexaij

2008-12-09, 02:31 PM

It's not a game Zarrexaij!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/Draconican/7940f041.jpg

I'm just happy I had the balls to ask him to lunch.

Dr Legostar

2008-12-09, 02:32 PM

Facially, no. But his body is amazing, as is his hair, and he makes me laugh >>

We'll see if I can live off of chocolate and laughter for a while :smallwink:

Zarre: Well, seeing as it IS finals coming up soon, he's probably incredibly busy. You should continue to chat with him via Email over the break, and resume the chase when next semester kicks back in

enjoy a fling, but don't get trapped by "there's no one better for me out there so I might as well settle" that leads to all kinds of bad.

three08

2008-12-09, 04:37 PM

I'm just happy I had the balls to ask him to lunch.

well congratulations! sounds like a promising start, too. just don't press things too hard. the timing is a little rough, but hey. email is a great low-pressure way to get to know someone.

Coidzor

2008-12-09, 04:43 PM

Zarr: Congratulations on getting a lunch hour.

Don't underestimate physical chemistry. It's kind of like chocolate... Very tempting, very bad as a sole diet, yet I wouldn't want to live without it, either. :smallbiggrin:

That's a pretty good way of putting things. I'm contemplating whether I want to be the kind of person who sigs such things... Then again, I am a bad person after all...

Gray Jester

2008-12-09, 04:49 PM

First off, congrats, Zarre, you totally get epic win points for being epic and win. Even if it doesn't work out as anything more then a friendship (or even that), you got up your courage and talked to him, which is, in and of itself, wonderful. Move forward slowly with this, and trust with your instincts. I'd advise writing a friendly email or the like, just to make it clear that you're still interested in him, and have email dialogues, although you might want to limit it to one or two emails a day (or just use AIM instead of email. :P) It's a good chance to get to know more about him in a low-pressure environment, so take it. Right now, just treat him as you would a friend you're getting to know: it allows you to come across as not creepy, nor dependent while getting to know him. And, worst comes to worst and he isn't interested, then you've made yourself a new friend, which is always something good.

Does that mean I win?
It's not a game Zarrexaij!

Yes it is. Like any game, romance has, at its root, some form of uncertainty. It also has rules, players, stakes, and rewards for 'winning'. I don't see any difference between the two.

Vampire包子

2008-12-09, 06:16 PM

Don't underestimate physical chemistry. It's kind of like chocolate... Very tempting, very bad as a sole diet, yet I wouldn't want to live without it, either.

I'd emphasize the, "very bad as a sole diet". Unless you are going the "Friends with Benefits" route, I've never seen a relationship based on physical chemistry that ended well.

Awesome bodies and hair are easy to find: go to any dance club, gym, etc. But those are for one-night stands and flings, not for relationships.

Any relationship should have physical chemistry, but not as the main ingredient. If it's the main ingredient, the relationship is doomed to fail sooner or later- who is hot after 50 more years?

Pyrian

2008-12-09, 06:30 PM

Like any game, romance has, at its root, some form of uncertainty. It also has rules, players, stakes, and rewards for 'winning'. I don't see any difference between the two.I disagree. Love, like war, is famously distinguished by its relative lack of rules. At best, it's like Warhammer 40K, where individuals and groups frequently disagree strenuously on what the rules actually are. Anyway, I think it's silly to call real-life issues "games" because game creation frequently concerns itself with simulating real-life decisions and consequences. Yup, life resembles a game made to simulate life. ...So? A game is, IMO, distinguished precisely by its artificiality.

Syka

2008-12-09, 08:29 PM

First, I want to sig the physical chemistry=chocolate quote, Pyrian, if you don't mind terrible? Thanks. :)

Second, blargh. Blargh blargh blargh. Bad things come in three's, right? Yeah. Everyone remembers my situation with The Girl from 2-3 weeks ago, yes? Well, then there is my friends situation which is similar to mine, except she's The Girl and it was far, far beyond what my situation was. I found out tonight that they kissed. I told her I'm extracting myself from the situation; I've yet to decide how to distance/end the friendship.

Because, honestly, she knows what she is doing. She knew it would happen, despite her protests that she'd never let it get that far- even I knew it would happen. She also know how badly it hurts, because she is the one who helped me get through when my ex did the SAME EXACT THING to me as this guy is doing to his girlfriend.

THEN I found out today a second friend is in a similar situation, except worse in that her fiance's family is LYING TO HER and encouraging her fiance to date while they are separated. I mean, wtf? They told him not to tell her he was hanging out with a friend of his alone and are wanting him to date the girls that have been asking him out (all old friends, evidently). While he's still engaged to her. WTF? Seriously? C'mon, it's one thing to not like your future daughter in law, but really? That bad?

So, basically I have a 5 year friendship that will be ending and am worried another of my friends will end up breaking up with her fiance when they had a pretty good relationship until he went to OK. She's trying to move, but evidently his family isn't 'sure' she'll move out there, hence encouraging him to date. :smallannoyed: Grr.

Coidzor

2008-12-09, 11:58 PM

Is hard to win out over craziness. Sounds like the situation is mostly on him and his rude family. I mean, seriously, if they're going to treat her like that, why would she want to move into the thick of them while trapped by a marriage?

Come to think of it, why are you so involved with who your friend is or isn't interested in dating in the first place?

Felixaar

2008-12-10, 12:45 AM

Way to go Zarre! I knew you'd do it.

Rabbs, end it. Physical closeness to a person without any actual emotional ties to them can only end badly.

Syka, woah. Well, I suppose you've just got to continue your plan to extract yourself from it. Ofcourse, in that third case probably the best thing you can do is stand by your friend, but remember - if their relationship cant survive this, can it survive thrity, forty, fifty, sixty seventy etc years of marriage to come?

*hugs* for all.

TFT

2008-12-10, 12:48 AM

What you said about cutting off all communication sounds like it might be a friend-like sort of a person. Assuming they're not, and this is more or less a case of bullying, I was thinking about it today and had an idea. Now, this would be very experimental, but it could also be fun. It's based on three premises:
1. The ol' turn-the-mockery-back-on-the-mocker stock solution,
2. People don't like having to think about why they do what they do, and
3. Bullies rely on a lack of direct, civil confrontation.
Psychoanalyse him and his behaviour. Question everything he does. Be direct with no hint of complaint or distress but merely intellectual curiosity. Ask him why he's done something ("What was the purpose of hiding my bag?"), how it makes him feel ("Tell me, does it give you a feeling of power?"), why it's so funny ("Interesting... The Badger Song is an amusing but benevolent tune, with no detectable object of ridicule. Yet your version of it, based on the context and subject, is intended to be a sort of insult. Where is it, exactly, that this new undertone comes from?", "Is it an example of shaedenfraud (sp?), or a more generic slapstick humour?"), his conciousness of its wider effects ("Are you aware of the effect of this on the victim's, i.e. my, psyche? Does this enhance your experience, or is it simply not considered?"). Always stay calm and unruffled, with a facade of intellectual curiosity. If you're into psychology or sociology, the results could be genuinely interesting.
If you want to kick it up a notch, you could more actively mess with him. You probably wouldn't want to actually take notes while you're talking to him, but you could get yourself a notepad, and sit in class alternately gazing thoughtfully at him and writing in it. I don't know whether it'd be better to keep staring at him if he sees you looking or to quickly look away. If you're really determined (and/or worried about being sprung) you could actually write notes on your discoveries.
Just an idea. If you give it a shot, tell me how it goes.

Skywalker: Didn't you say that last time I gave that advice? :smalltongue:

I'll be honest, I like this idea, though I don't know whether or not this guy is actually going to give me any answers to my questions(Its not that hes my friend, its more that since we have almost all our classes with each other, we have to have some kind of relationship(No not that kind, the friend, acquatence, etc.), And he seems to like annoying the heck out of me. I was kind of curious of this myself. Lets see what happens...:smallamused:

EDIT: I think I'm going to type out notes, though I don't know whether or not I should post details on here(But I'm thinking no, since I might be getting into more details about this guy, though not personal info like his name or whatever). If Serp is interested, I'll pm her my notes because it was her idea, but otherwise I don't think I'm going to write them down here.

Pyrian

2008-12-10, 02:28 AM

First, I want to sig the physical chemistry=chocolate quote, Pyrian, if you don't mind terrible? Thanks. :)Of course you can, I'd be flattered! :smallredface:

Agamid

2008-12-10, 03:05 AM

I have a friend who has been going out with a guy no one likes except her - he's a complete leach, blows all their grocery money on gifts she doesn't want, had nasty mood swings where he'd abandoned her at train stations when she has no idea of where she is, or called her up while she's on her way to school and told her that he'll kill himself if she doesn't come home and stop him. He's also lying to her about quitting smoking and about talking to his exes, and he has no concept what-so-ever about what's socially appropriate, for example, he threatened to beat up one of our mutual friends while we were over at the friend's house for his and his partner's babyshower/housewarming/engagement party because he made a jokingly critical remark about him. not to mention all the times he's beaten the crap out of strangers for 'looking at him funny' or for saying crap about him or his girlfriend and the number of times he's tried to pull her out of school because he 'wants to talk'.
And he cries, all the time. Her brother called him an emo and he cried!

anyway... they broke up about a week ago and she's been crying pretty-well constantly since, so we (me and all her friends) have had to juggle the whole comforting her while at the same time celebrating that he's gone (or wondering how we're ever going to get the money he owes us now).
So, while broken up he rings her and asks if she can drive him to his GP appointment, she does and his doctor immediately admits him to a psych ward and now they're back together... and she's visiting him in hospital everyday.

I just feel like getting back together with him was the worst possible thing she ever could have done, but i really don't know if i should tell her, especially while she's so emotional...
And i don't know if anyone has any advice they can give... but it's like everyone i know has just recently had their relationships go down the crapper and they're ALL coming to me as a shoulder to cry on, so feel i needed to get my feelings on one of these relationship train-wrecks off my chest...