Venting - Skill Checks and Role Playing vs Roll Playing

[neonchameleon]

#1. DM places a book that has been altered by magic to look like a book of bad poetry. The book radiates magic.

With Detect Magic, a Knowledge (Arcana) DC 18 (15 + spell level) identifies it as Transmutation. Not too bad if it stopped there. BUT... add a Knowledge (Arcana) DC 23, and it is revealed to be writing protected by a Secret Page spell (Identify a spell effect that is in place, DC 20 + spell level). THEN a Spellcraft DC 18 (15 + spell level, again) reveals the "properties of the magic item," which some players argue includes the "command word" to decode the writing.

Tell the players that that last part is ridiculous. The rest? Why not.

While this may be a bit of a challenge for low level parties, by the time a character reaches mid-level, there isn't much that they can't find out just by looking at or studying an item. Sure, there are ways in the rules to make it harder, like the Heighten Spell feat. Still, special measures should not be a requirement to make every single challenge harder. It starts to become bland when every single NPC caster has Heighten Spell, and the number of these options is limited.

In short you want high level PCs to be stumped on the same stuff that would have foiled them ten levels earlier. Why? Part of the point of levelling up is that you get new and different challenges as you've passed the old ones. I see no problem here, quite the reverse.

BUT... one or more of them have Knowledge (Local) and the players argue that they should be able to roll to see if their character knows all the details about this custom (that their characters have never been exposed to):

First, Knowledge (Local) is a bugged skill. There should be a Knowledge (Local) for each separate region. "I know local knowledge about everywhere" is just ridiculous. Second, they may not have seen it directly, but gossip? The fact that you and they do not play out every interaction they have had since the cradle?

And even combat challenges fall victim to this process.

"Identify the abilities and weaknesses of:"

Constructs, dragons, magical beasts - Knowledge (Arcana)
Aberrations, oozes - Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Humanoids - Knowledge (Local)
Animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin - Knowledge (Nature)
Outsiders - Knowledge (Planes)
Undead - Knowledge (Religion)

Once again I'm with the game rather than the GMs who want to blindfold the players (unless you're using beasties explicitly from the Far Realms). A high enough level ranger should be able to take one look at a monster they have never seen before and say "Teeth? It's a herbivore, it doesn't bite often - but watch for the back two molars. From its musculature, the real danger is that sharp tail that it can crack like a whip, breaking the sound barrier. It needs lungs that are larger than you'd expect so its heart will be *scetches* there. Top speed? With those muscles? Twenty five miles per hour or so - and it can keep it up for a few minutes. From the gashes along its side, it's been in a fight and will lash out twice as fast at anyone on its left flank." And be pretty close on their estimates.

Not having monster knowledge skills that can cover monsters the PCs haven't met before assumes one of two things:

1. There are no laws of physics, biology, or magic
2. The PCs are incurious idiots who never learn or extrapolate

Frankly, DMs assuming they are oh so clever because they are changing the natural laws is something I think should have been left in the 70s.

DC 10 + monster's CR

So a CR 10 monster is a DC 20.

Now here's a problem. A baby red dragon might be fifteen points easier to identify than its mother (who just gets identified as "A big red flappy thing" even after they've killed the baby).

How many times are the players going to use the excuse "my character could have found it out somewhere," and "it doesn't matter how my character knows it, I just beat the DC so tell me!"

As often as the DM tries to blind them and destroy their immersion by denying that their characters are capable of learning about the gameworld.

Where is the danger, the mystery, the excitement of encountering something new and actually having to work to find out about it instead of simply rolling a D20?

Who says you know everything about new monsters? Their physiology? Quite a lot. Their politics? Very little. Literally the only place where I see you having a point is that Knowlege (Local) is bugged.

Skills give knowledge to players through their characters that they would not otherwise have.

And by doing so they help make up for the fact that the pipe by which the players may investigate the world is pathetically tiny - and is limited to the speed at which they can talk and the DM can answer questions, and possibly to a couple of illustrations rather than to having five senses and having lived in the world for many, many years.

Skills give knowledge to players that their characters would have but the players would not have unless the DM gave it to them.

True, the DM can just rule that the character didn't roll high enough, but that's kind of hard to do when the character is trying to "Identify a spell effect that is in place." The Knowledge (Arcana) DC is 20 + spell level, for a maximum possible of 29 for a 9th level spell. The player rolls his D20 and gets a result in the 30's... telling the player they didn't roll high enough would be a bit of a stretch.

This is not a problem. The DM trying to create a world even people who live in know nothing about is a problem. So is the DM fudging rolls to restrict the players understanding of the world still further than the very low bit rate of the DM talking.

Roll playing has overtaken role-playing.

No. What you call roll playing is making up for the fact that you are unable and apparently unwilling to give the PCs sufficient information to portray experienced characters who are capable of observing their world and learning patterns at a deeper level than their PCs.

In fact, almost anything that is used to oppose these Skill checks is going to be a kludge, a solution that is inefficient, clumsy, or patched together.

GOOD! Trying to lobotomise PCs and deny them their choices and place in the world is a bad thing. Now (other than on the Knowledge: Local front) stop it!

Ok, end of venting. It is just aggravating when a player dismisses all the work you put into something by claiming that their character can roll a D20 and know all there is to know about it. And they can even give you what they think the DC should be... <sigh>

It might be aggravating, but if the players weren't finding your game of 20 Questions annoying they wouldn't be doing this. The problem isn't at the players end. It's that you are wasting your time putting together things the players obviously don't find fun, that spoil the players' immersion, and that just lead to tedium and frustrated players.

So what are some solutions I have used? I tend to pin down the player and point out that there is just no way their character could have that knowledge. I might be more generous on this point if the players didn't try to know everything, no matter how obscure or hidden, with a single D20 roll. Some players have complained, saying that no where in the rules does it say that, which forces me to resort to Rule #1. There is no way they can know everything about a new spell, or a strange new creature.

In short you are using Rule #1 to ensure that Spellcraft literally is meaningless. That there are no laws to magic, and no common patterns between spells. Which is the only way they couldn't know at least something about spells they encounter. You're trying to force a Calvinball universe.

I suppose this could be thought of as injecting some "realism" into a "fantasy" game, but without it, the game is nothing but tossing some dice and scribbling on a battle mat.

Or you give them challenges that don't revolve around you changing the rules on the characters. Instead you give them interesting and situations that are more interesting the more they know.

Or you play a game other than D&D where the magic isn't half so formalised. It's not "This spell always does this thing." And there's no spellcraft skill.

Actually, my serious recommendation is that you get a copy of Dungeon World and read the advice in there.

And seriously, as my final comment, if you take nothing else on board, the PCs apparently seem to think that they need to fight for every scrap of knowledge with you - because you are apparently adamant about denying it. I think everyone would be much more relaxed if you gave them more and only very occasionally kept some back rather than that they got used to fighting for every scrap of information. (In Dungeon World I'll sometimes ask the players why these monsters are especially scary - and if I get the Destroyer being made of marshmallow, I'll run with that).