Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
Nope, doesn't have to be edge printing, just something easily visual as you flip rapidly through the book. GURPS 4e and Eclipse Phase are good examples of what I'm talking about.
That's fine, then. No argument there.


Which seems like an argument in favor of not always having character generation at the beginning of the book.
Not in the context of character generation rules outlining what is important to the system and being a good hook for potential buyers, along with all the other hooks at the start. (Fiction, lore, TRPG introduction, etc. You want your hooks at the start, not the end. Character building is a hook.)

Additionally, regardless of the mechanics it is fairly easy to tell if character generation will be easy or tedious by reading through those rules. Often, it also presents a good intro for how the book will be layed out. For a simplified example:

1. Intro
2. Character generation overview
A. Basic stats
B. Side system A.
C. Side system B.
D. Miscellaneous.

3. How Stats work.
4. How Side system A works.
5. How Side system B works.
6. How the Miscellaneous stuff works.

The above is super simplified, but is a coherent layout that prepares you for what is coming. Often the Character Generation steps really can be super simplified, and that's sufficient. (In Apocalypse World, the Character Generation steps are:
1. Pick a playbook.
2. Look at the "Making a ______" section of the playbook.
3. Do what that says. (Everything is on the playbook already)
4. You're done.

For something like Apocalypse World, the Players only need the playbook for their class and one additional printout to cover everything they need to know. The GM needs... the rest of the book.

Putting the player stuff in front means that when the GM shares that digital copy around (I do this for game purposes,) they don't have to scroll for 5 minutes to grab the 3 pages they need. Just dip in at the start, nab your junk, and go. For digital? Wildly more convenient.

Again, if you're going to have to read other rules first, why not put them first?
They read the character generation steps because:
1. It's a potential hook.
2. It can be used as an outline for the rest of the book.
3. It can be used as a summary of later mechanics that is quick at hand.
4.

Again though, is it knowing HOW to make a character the give context or is it knowing WHAT a final character looks like.
MiguelAndTulioSayingBoth.gif
But the former is a great setup for how the rest of the book will go. Let's take an RPG about Wizards. The character generation steps could look like this:

1. Pick a name for your wizard.
2. Pick one of the 5 schools of magic (Zappy, Healy, Changy, Hidy, or Deady, See Chapter 2)
3. Pick your Wizardly Robe (See chapter 3)
4. Pick your Wizardly Staff (See chapter 4)
5. Select the spells in your spellbook (See chapter 5)

Since character generation is often a workflow, this doubly makes sense as that workflow can be indicated early. If the Robes depend upon your School, then you can introduce that basic concept in the chargen outline. You are now primed to look for that before getting to Chapter 3.

Because I'm arguing that it's the later. I'm arguing that putting some pre-gens up front and using that for context for the rest of the rules
Errant the Faceless
Hard +3
Cool +2
Hot -1
Sharp +0
Weird +1
2 armor
Chainsaw (3-harm loud messy hand)
Rasputin
Insano-like-Drain-o
Wilson
[ ] 3:00
[ ] 6:00
[ ] 9:00
[ ] 10:00
[ ] 11:00
[ ] 12:00

That's the current information I need for my AW character. I've removed parts that are explicitly explained on the playbook.

If you can tell me what even half of this means better than my wife who has never played but can read the playbook, I'll eat a hat.

[QUOTEP
and putting creation at the back is a better flow than putting creation up front and either requiring they create a character without context, or jump back and forth to get context[/QUOTE]
Or they are a normal human being, read the creation steps, know what will be in the rest of the book, and then read with an understanding of which bits go where in the workflow, OR, they follow along with the rules and build as they read, giving them both current context and an ongoing instruction guide. If bits of your character creation REQUIRE backtracking, the problem is the chargen, not the printing order. It will suck regardless of where you put the steps.

to create a character that then gives the remaining context they need to other rules.
Or... they do what reasonable human beings do, as seen above.

The argument seemingly stems from a belief that people are inherently stupid and either:
A. Cannot witness instructions without following them
B. Cannot comprehend a general overview of a process until they comprehend all the deep mechanics of said process. Yet my 2 year old knows that food goes in your tummy, and turns into poop. She seems ok at grasping that process without knowing all the minute How's and Why's.

I know the general process for making bread, from planting to slicing, but I probably couldn't go out and write a book about it. Yet I have a comfortable understanding such that if I read a book about bread, I would know more or less what was going on at all times, because I am coming into that content with a basic overview of how it works. So even if presented with rhe baking first and the grain growing second, I would not believe that you bake the bread before growing the wheat. I would find the layout strange, but not paralyzing.

Maybe I'm the reincarnation of Einstein, though, and other people panic if presented with a non-exhaustive process guide.