Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
Don't play role-playing games with them, they don't seem to be enjoying it. You seem to be trying to hoodwink them at this point. Alternate D&D and War Machine or something. Its my favourite war game and I would recommend it over D&D combat any day.
So, I wanted to address this first.

As you know, I started as a war gamer, but I don't play for the war game portion of an RPG any more. But that transition? Some people can jump in cold turkey; others need to ease out of their comfort zone. For many of the war gamers I've played with, having a character with no explicit, inherent buttons to push outside of combat, in a game with scenario-level tools that anyone *could* manipulate was optimal. They were here for the war game; other people could handle the "plot". It even came with built-in spotlight sharing. So I have a hard time seeing why you'd think this was a bad setup, given that, afaict, it's fairly optimal.

Also, War Machine is… OK. But it doesn't scale well to "triple the points" or "4-player", which is one of several reasons it feels kinda samey and predictable. I prefer war games with more variety. And where your choice of "class" does not so hard code your options as War Machine does.

Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
You want to understand this problem? Well given this is you I will make a special recommendation. Play a fighter. Make a fighter whose purpose is to fight and solves problems with physical fighter-like means.* Play it in 20 campaigns under 20 GMs. In combat focused campaigns and social campaigns and exploration campaigns and in high OP parties and low OP parties. With other fighters and in a party oozing with magic.

I can guess how it will go. ... Or since that would take a long time, ask people who like fighters why they like them and why they feel the fighter gets the short end of the stick.

* As opposed to mind games or something that I am sure you could make work.
Well played.

I've played Fighters/muggles in numerous systems, including 2e & 3e, to get a view "from the trenches", to let me do a better* job playing Wizards.

In fact, proportionally, I've played too many them in 3e for my taste. Worse, I don't remember receiving a single buff spell as a muggle since y2k.

I've been party leader, party tactician, and primary damage dealer on multiple occasions. I've been "the guy with style", and I've been completely bloody useless. I've been OP, I've been a joke, and on at least one occasion, the best thing about my character was the fact that I brought a war horse.

But I don't really enjoy playing muggles. I've wasted far too much time on them already - what do you suspect that I do not see?

* Both "more effective" and "party friendly"

I'll reply to other things in a bit.