The Man Keeping the Martial Down

[AMFV]

As much as I defend the option to multi-class, I'm going to have to question that assertion that the game is designed such that "complex builds" are the default assumption. I think that stance is entirely an artifact of the online numbers-optimization-centric echo-chamber.

It very clearly was:

Here's Monte Cooke talking about how he designed the game to "reward" system mastery:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Montecookquote.png

So clearly the game was designed with multiclassing and complex builds as the goal for a player with "system mastery" who would then be "rewarded" with a better play experience. Whether that's a good thing or not it was a design goal. I would argue that the way to fix it would be to leave the complexity in place (since a lot of people love the complexity), and to reduce the number of trap options, so that it's more choices and less "I suck now" things since I don't think that's actually good design.

But yes, the game was deliberately designed with complex builds and trap options in mind.

(Further, I'd assert that multi-classing exists as much to provide variety and to facilitate character-mapping-optimization as it does to facilitate numbers-optimization.)

Certainly so! Those are both functions of multiclassing, which is why in a perfect world you'd have multiple multiclassing and prestige classing options that would all be equally useful to your character. And it's not just "numbers optimization" it's optimization of play experience.

This is also why when I'm building a "martial" character I might have a diverse array of different options. My Fighter/Bard/Suel Arcanamach/Sublime Chord is going to be a profoundly different character (and arguably not a martial any more) than my Horizon Tripper character, or than my Barbarian Ubercharger or than my "The Big Guy is With Me" mount build.

In a game system with Classes, the Classes as-provided should all be completely viable and as balanced as possible straight out of the box -- anything else is objectively poor game design.

That's not correct at all. That depends entirely on your design goals. If your goal is to create a system where people are expected to multiclass, it's not poor design to have a game where that is the case. It may not be design that is to your taste, but it's certainly not poor game design. There is a reason why people jumped ship from Wizards to Paizo, with the release of 4e. And it's not some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, it's that they actually enjoyed the complex building aspects.

So the "fix" is to make every class a mess?

No, the fix is to have either all classes complicated (like the fighter) or all classes simple (like the Wizard). I've seen all classes simplified in the AEDU design of 4e (which I actually enjoy from time to time), I've never seen the reverse attempted. I think that if it's a stated assumption that characters are going to multi and prestige class and that's what you expect I think that would make the game richer, of course that involves a lot of complexity so it would be difficult to design, but I would argue that if the character creation minigame is what you're there for, then making that more the case would be good.

Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron?

I've actually missed that one. But I don't think that's what I'm advocating for.

Once the Fighter multiclasses, it's not a Fighter anymore, it's a Fighter/X. If we're going to discuss the balance between Classes, it has to be the actual Classes, not an assumption of some build involving bits of other Classes.

But we're not discussing actual classes. We're discussing the disparity between "martials" and "casters" and a martial if they are playing the way that the game was designed is expected to multiclass and have a complex build. Fighter 20 is a intentional design trap the same way that the toughness feat was an intentional design trap. The expectation is the complex build. And a big part of the game is building complex characters. This is why I love building gishes, because when I love casters, but I lose out on the complex build aspect when I play casters in game.