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    Troacctid's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    There's certainly an advantage to having everything enumerated in one place, but I think you'll find that the Transformation domain kicks in pretty hard if you research a bit.

    Transformation domain gives you Alter Self at level 3. Alter Self gives you fly/swim/burrow as well as natural armor up to +8 and claw/claw/bite w/multiattack. Clerics of course can get it 24/7 at level 3 via DMM[Persist] which has many other applications as well. Here's a tradeoff table:
    Code:
    Alter Self           Wildshape
    +L3                    -L6 (to cast spells)
    +keep gear          -lose gear
    -keep physical      +new physical stats
    -no Ex attacks      +gain Ex attacks
    +no familiarity     -requires familiarity
    Both have:
    +effectively all day (via DMM persist or just hours available)
    -requires feat to use fully (Natural spell, or a partial share of DMM[Persist])
    +good utility
    +good combat

    At level 9 the cleric then gets Polymorph which is generally far more adaptable than Wild Shape. And a level 15, there is Polymorph Any Object which is broken-good. At level 17 the Transformation cleric gets Shapechange. It's not until level 18 that the spontaneous druid also gets Shapechange.

    Overall, the spontaneous druid has some advantage L6-L8, while the transformation cleric has an edge L3-L5 and L9-L17.
    Transformation domain cleric is pretty specific and even somewhat obscure. What percentage of spontaneous clerics are going to choose it? Of that percentage, how many also take DMM: Persist and don't have better spells to use with it? Because every spontaneous druid starts with wild shape as a baseline. If we assume power level is ranked based on a weighted average of what we expect lots of different builds to look like—and it is—I'd bet that the Transformation domain's impact on its respective class is much lower than wild shape's. Plus, druid also gets the animal companion, which is another powerhouse class feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    Sorcerer -> Low T1


    Explaination: Choosing the right spells (Calling Creatures/polymorphing/Shapechange etc) the Sorcerer can have a vast amound of versatility without sacrificing any Power. in a scenario were Dragon Magazine is an allowed source the item "knowstone" functions for a Sorcerer as a Scroll does for a Wizard. Runestaves can also give access to multiple other spells. Finally the prestige class "Mage of the Arcane Order" can give a Sorcerer the same versatility as a Wizard. Finally some spells give a great bonus to the Sorcerer over the Wizard (Arcane Spellsurge) wile others exclusive to the Sorcerer can give amazing combos between spells (Arcane Fussion and it's Greater Version).

    Because some optimisation (not to mention Dragon Magazine) is required to that end (as opposed to regular progression) i can see why it's considered T2. i don't want to oppen an old can of worms by this post either. Just wanted to share my oppinion that a well built Sorcerer deserves Tier 1.
    "Low T1" isn't a numerical value. 1.5? 1.4? I can put you down as a 1, but if you want "low" then I need a decimal.

    I must also remind you that prestige classes have no bearing on these rankings, so MotAO is irrelevant; proceed accordingly.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2019-10-16 at 12:14 PM.