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Thread: 4-elements Monk

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: 4-elements Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I honestly think the 4E Monk would have been better off if none of their disciplines mimicked spells. Then you wouldn't get that comparison to EK/AT in the first place. Or, alternatively, if they hadn't included it in the core rules, and instead put it in the Elemental Evils Player's Companion, so that it could have drawn spells from there.

    Part of my problem with the subclass is that there doesn't really seem to be a good outline of how it's supposed to be special. Take the other magic-heavy core subclass - the Shadow Monk is blatantly supposed to be a stealthy scout/ninja. All four of the spells it gets (at 3rd level, mind you) are built around making you stealthier and making use of shadows. The 4E Monk doesn't really make those steps towards opening up a new role or redefining their old one - it's like the thought process when designing it started and ended with "they should have elemental powers!".

    Or, to look at it in another way: a Shadow Monk can do things with their features that a spellcaster who focuses on shadow spells just plain can't. At-will invisibility and teleportation while in poor lighting isn't something that can be replicated by making appropriate spell choices, and the four spells they get are drawn from distinct spell lists¹ so that it'd be really hard to copy them spell-wise without bending over backwards. Meanwhile, every single spell that a 4E Monk can pick from is on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. And, at the same time, their unique disciplines are available from 3rd level, and consist of a mediocre cantrip replacer, three combat options, and one bit of kinda interesting utility.

    ¹ Darkness is a Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard spell, Darkvision is an Artificer/Druid/Ranger/Sorcerer/Wizard spell, Pass Without Trace is a Druid/Ranger spell, Silence is a Bard/Cleric/Ranger spell, and Minor Illusion is a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiveStriker View Post
    This I totally understands and globally agree with.
    Small caveat though: redesigning everything as pure Monk feature would further expand the need to learn for players. Mimicking spells has at least the advantage of reusing features that everyone knows already and is familiar with using and ruling about.
    I completely agree as well. Yes, the other subclasses utilise spells, but aren't focused on them to the same degree. 4E was lazily designed and could easily have followed a similar pattern to the Way of Shadow or Open Palm without being overcomplicated. As I've discovered in exploring the class over the course of this thread, 4E isn't the "spellcasting" subclass; the Way of Shadow actually gets the same number of spells, just at lvl.3, as 4E gets over its entire career! Yet you don't see people comparing the Way of Shadow to EK or AT in the same manner as 4E. As you point out Amechra, 4E get's virtually nothing unique and I don't think that adding additional spell options would ever fix that.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2020-05-12 at 06:48 AM.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.