The Riddle of Steel: why not using all dices to attack ?

[Lacco]

@Mark Hall: Thank you for that!

@BlacKnight: I sent you a PM but let's discuss here since the topic is alive:

Recently I started reading TROS and its successor Song of Swords

Well, congrats to that! RoS is still my favourite system so good choice!

It's also one of those I recommend to any GM that feels his combats are becoming a bit flat or just number crunching and to anyone who just has a writers' block.

Of course, the system is quite old and there are are several open points, which are not really stated directly in the rules, but we'll get to them.

Without further ado:

and playing around with the combat system and I wonder: why should the attacker not use all his dices in the first strike ?

This is one of the questions that seem like they should have an easy answer, but in reality is complicated.

First: it's actually a valid tactic to attack with a full amount of dice. There are moments, when this is not only good idea, but maybe even the only idea.

When is it good idea?

When the attacker is "wide open" (e.g. has no dice left due to wounds, fatigue, or other factors - you should try to maximize the damage and go for a quick kill in some cases; I'd suggest to use also the "extra damage" variant of cutting - using one CP die for +1 to damage; usable only once per cut attack).

When you have number advantage (2 vs 1) and you know your partner is able to block potential attack.

When you are low on dice as "last resort".

Also: in second exchange (unused dice are lost).

And yes, I know you asked for the opposite case. But this will be important later.

The answer that comes from old threads on the net is generally "because he would be undefended in the next exchange".
But that doesn't make much sense to me, as to steal the initiative the defender needs to parry succesfully, so he needs to use at least equal dices to the attacker, as using less dices on the defense is too much of a risk.

And the answer is correct. Mostly. Because while in the core rules there is no direct explanation what to do in case attacker uses all his dice but retains initiative, there is an example in Companion, which shows that in such case there is a second exchange and the defender may take initiative.

The "indirect" answer is: "there are two exchanges every round". Meaning that even if the character that defended in first exchange (and failed to gain initiative - e.g. via partial evasion, a tie) and has at least one die, he may launch an attack. According to the rules, you may launch attack even if you threw white ( = you chose to defend), but unless you -steal- initiative, your attack comes second.

Emphasis on the word "steal" is important: what you talked about above was not stealing of initiative - it was the act of taking initiative and these are rather different. You take initiative based on success of certain manuevers (e.g. successful parry or block provide you with the initiative, as does a counter) but you can attempt to steal initiative when you decide to attack instead of defending and try to act faster than your opponent (something similar to iaido or quickdraw attempts at wild west duels).

But back to the two exchanges: based on the rule, if the attacker has no dice left for second exchange, he can not attack, but you can still decide to attack - and since there is no "first" attack, your attack will land first. No problem there.

So in case we have two completely identical characters, with the same weapons (including the same ATN/DTN) fighting in featureless arena... you are correct. It's basically a matter of luck and there is no reason to not use all dice. We both go "all in" and we'll see who survives.

Luckily, this is only theoretical - in practice, the arenas are not featureless, the opponents are different and this style "put all dice here, attack, see who lives" will not be our issue in RoS. You never know - unless you have already watched someone fight - what are your opponent's stats (and even then - it's mostly guesswork). You will most of the time know what kind of weapon he uses (which tells you what kind of attacks and defence will/should they prefer), what armor he has (unless hidden), what school/proficiency he uses and what manuevers he has available.

And especially - you don't know your opponent's Combat Pool size. And while you can estimate it, it will take at least first round to get your first estimate in - and that can be fatally wrong (it's a nice tactic called "dice scumming" - you keep one or two dice in your pool without using them for 2-3 rounds and then you use them as an unpleasant surprise when the opponent counts your dice).

The opponents will not be identical. The weapons may be different. And the arenas... well, it will be fun.

In the PM I mentioned several things you can try to teach your players to fight in different ways and to use advanced manuevers. If you wish to discuss those, just quote the PM.

So, in an exchange where one side has dice left and the other doesn’t, they automatically become the aggressor and now know they can execute a comparatively unopposed attack. Let’s look at two 13 dice combatants, and some things that could screw the “all in” attack. They won’t always, but they can - enough to make it a gamble with the attacker’s life.

This is also something I mentioned in the PM: remember that you have countless NPCs. Players each have just one PC. So feel free to experiment - but RoS will force the players to play a bit safe with the dice.

1. A shield. Lower DTN means you need less dice on average...so if he throws 13, a defensive throw of 9 will probably block the strike or muff it to the point it glances harmlessly off armor. The remaining 4 dice go into a high precision attack against a weak point on the now defenseless attacker.

Shields are great. While in D&D the bonuses are not so good, here the shield is your friend.

Depending on where the player attacks - I usually ask the player to show me directly how they swing the weapon to know from which side the attack comes) - you can disregard more dice from defence: the shield provides a passive AV to torso/arm. Just hope they don't hit the head .

Exception: favouring. If you study the favouring rules from Flower of Battle, you can position the shield before the attack comes. But I'd save that for later.

With shield I would go for block open & strike. While the activation cost of 2 sounds bad, if you succeed, you get +1 die for each net success for your next attack: so with two opponents both using 13 dice it will look like this:
PC: 13 dice for attack
NPC: 10 dice for block open & strike, 2 dice activation cost.
Depending on the luck the NPC can end up with 1-3 additional dice, giving them a nice start against a defenseless opponent.

[QUOTE=KineticDiplomat;24552527]2. A riposte (counter) or a rota. If the party succeeds, it gets every one of the attackers successes back as more dice for the next exchange. Combined with a fencing blade or a long sword the defender would have the TN advantage as well. Low risk - if the attack gets through, it’s probably barely getting through and unless he’s completely unarmored the defender is fine. High pay off - if the dice go in y favor, suddenly you have 5-7 dice to fight a 0 die opponent with.

Emphasis mine.

Counter is one of my favourites. It works the best against large dice pool investments. While you do not get to choose the actual counter, most of the time it will not matter.

Why? You get all the successes your opponent rolled. Not net successes: all successes.

If they roll 7 successes, you get 7 dice to attack them.

Spoiler: For other times

Show

One of the applicable tactics that works well with too defensive players is to open with a weak feint (they guess/check if it is a feint and overcommit to defence, decreasing their dice pool) and then make a powerful counter in second exchange.

The successes from the counter go to the second round, where they add to the CP...

3. Ovveruns and Masterstrokes - particularly in heavily armored combat. The defender puts just enough in to let the chain mail or plate have a good chance of making the attack irrelevant, then uses the attacking portion of the maneuver to get in for free.

I'd say that if you already have an overrun or masterstroke, you do not care much about someone who overcommits - the manuevers provide their net successes to second exchange, so you can easily use the whole dice pool.

4. Full evasion. Will almost certainly avoid the blow and set the two combatants apart. Knowing what your “all in” opponent likes to do, come back in aggressive with a long extending thrust and leave enough dice to make it fast. Skewer him through the throat before his massive overhand chip comes down.

Full evasion resets the combat round, making it a good "irritate & strike" tactic.

I'd personally go for full evasion with... let's say 75-80% dice he provides. If you succeed, you break away from the combat and we're back at the initiative. Do it few times and if you get lucky, you get even.

What happens then is that you do not get hit, but he does not have dice for second exchange. It's a bit tricky, works badly with PCs, but may give a weaker NPC a good chance to get a good hit in.

What KineticDiplomat proposes could be also varied with following (I use this for overly cautious, skilled rapier fencer/sword & board NPCs):
1st round: white die, full evasion, let's see what he's got.
2nd round: white die, confirm amount of CP by full evasion again.
3rd round: white die. Steal initiative. Stab at arms for almost full dice pool (or go "Simultaneous Block & Attack", put less dice into defence), leave single die for second exchange.

It's a bit tricky & will cost few dice, but he'll have no chance to fight back at this point.

Most powerful hits to arms will make the enemy drop their weapon. Which means he swings with empty hands...

My bet is someone killed a few mooks with massive dice advantage and never had a near equal opponent punish them for the equivalent of taking giant sweeping slashes.

That would be my guess too, but I think the OP mentioned only reading through the rules. I'm looking forward to the discussion of this fine game, gentlemen