The Riddle of Steel: why not using all dices to attack ?

[BlacKnight]

Well, first of all, thank you for the detailed answer.
This exchange is really interesting and I'm getting a lot of hype about trying the system in practice.

Now we enter RAI area:
From what I understood the player should not have enough time to calculate. Basically - the attacker has as much time as it takes for the defender to collect and roll dice after stating their defensive maneuver. Which means there is enough time to make a quick decision, but not to calculate in depth. And the original idea for feints was that you could even spot them:
==(working from memory, away from books)==
There is a skill, rather useful, called Body Language. IIRC, Companion states that you can use the skill in combat. As defender, you may pay 2 dice and roll PER/Body Language. If you suceed, you will determine if the opponent uses a feint (basically, he has to state feint before you state your defence). It also adds +1 die to your defensive manuever for each success, making a high-PER build with good Body Language a good choice for fencer.
(again, need to check this; don't have the books with me now)

Playing without giving too much time to the players to think is something I've seen suggested for more than one game. Never tried it in practice, but I'm skeptical of how doable it is.
Still, the idea is charming, so worth a try.

From purely statistical point of view and for our "naked swordsmen" - yes. I do not disagree with that.
For my example: she was not wearing any armor beyond leather vest and her rapier was not suited for parry against the cudgel. So it was 50:50 calculation and luck. Had she chosen a different tactic, the results could be widely disproportionate. To quote one of my players (who described the combat system quite masterfully):

In the example I stated, I did not win only due to luck. Of course, luck plays its role - but the difference was tactics. I knew what I was going to do - she did not. That's why she lost.

Assuming she had an ATN of 6 and you had a DTN of 5 on Total Evasion, she had a 20% chance of doing 5 or less successes, and even then you chances of matching her would have been 61% against 5 successes or 84% against 4. Your chances of getting 6 or more successes were 29%, and in that case it would have still no be enough for 58% of her rolls.
In short her chances to not hit you in the first exchange was little more than 20%.
What kind of tactic could have she used with an higher success ratio?

All combat rolls, with the exception of Toss and Stop Short, need to roll more successes than defender. RED-RED is actually another situation, where you do not have to roll more successes - you just have to hit first and hard enough.

I've checked the rules and those also need the attacker to win the contest.
I don't think there's any maneuver that does anything if you roll less successes than the opponent, hence why dice advantage is so important.

Not sure if this works in BoIT the same as in RoS. And in our theoretical case, Expulsion is easily defended against by preparing a feint-to-cut each round.

Also, it's a bit of RAI: rules state expulsion can be used only against cuts of 4 dice & less or thrusts - so my interpretation is that it just works as parry when the opponent feints. This is actually something that worries most people about RoS - the rules have multitude of holes, which can be either houseruled based on common sense, but it's kinda something that pops up often.

However, back to our case of expulsion being useless - let's step outside our clean test environment for a moment:
Let's consider a rapier. ATN 7 for cutting, 5 for thrusting. Optimized for thrust damage - which is a category we ignore, but should be considered at least later. Why?
If we take average characters and give them arming swords, they get ATN 6 for cutting, with ST+1 cutting damage.
If we give one an arming sword and the other a rapier (ATN 5, ST+2 piercing) and set them on each other, we get different results.
A successful hit with arming sword with exactly 1 net success will get you damage 6, which gets you a lvl 2 wound (Shock 4, Blood Loss 2, Pain 5-WP) - survivable if you keep your wits and manage to catch a break. With average attributes, this will actually cost you only 1 die in the long run.
The same with rapier gives you damage 7, level 3 wound (Shock 7, Blood Loss 8, Pain 8-WP) which will take more than a half of your CP first exchange and 4 CP each round.

The difference between Lv2 and Lv3 wounds is the difference between small wound that can be ignored and dealth with after the combat - and suddenly fighting for your life. And the decreased ATN of a rapier is very dangerous for unskilled opponent.

Now if you have a rapier and are attacked by any light sword (other test variables remain the same), it's actually a good idea to use expulsion any time it is viable, as you need only 2 dice to score a level 3 wound. Provided the attacker stabs (e.g. sidesword/bastard sword are optimized for stabbing) - even due to countering - he can not switch to cutting and your expulsion (if successful) will cost him his life in the long run.

I went to read the rapier description in RoS and raised an eyebrow. "Rapiers are light weapons unsuited for parrying heavy swings"? I see somebody is confusing rapiers and smallwords, and even the latter can parry big swings.
-3 to swing damage? So less damage than a punch?

Ok, ramblings aside, why should you attack you a thrust at all? If the opponent is also attacking or is without dices, fine, but as first strike is sounds like you are asking to get expulsed.
Considering that Evasive attack doesn't work with thrusts, aren't thrust-centric weapons a bad choice? Especially the rapier that can't really cut, to say nothing of having to defend against cuts (DTN 8! Come on!)

I admit, I got lost there.

One possibility: 5+ die cutting attack. Meaning expulsion is out (in RoS), but feints are still possibility, while counters do not add much benefit.

Also: as HEMA practitioner of limited experience, hitting arms is really the easiest (not easy at all with a skilled opponent, but it's your best shot!), so this models it really nicely. And you answered your question: armor and limited hit locations is the first of two answers.

When you consider that many of the offered possilibites for armor cover shoulders (e.g. pauldrons, short sleeves), vambraces have nice cost/benefit ratio and most swords have AV value to protect fingers and wrist... you already have 2 or 3 of the 5 hit locations covered. Yes, a hit will hurt, but not nearly enough.

Of course, if your opponent did not prepare well and is sleeveless and lacking vambraces, you should go for it. The same goes for legs: many players tend to ignore upper legs as target and therefore do not wear any armor besides leather pants.

The second answer is "cutting at arms does not kill". Of course it does: if you rack enough blood loss, you just have to break the combat and circle around the enemy who will die slowly, but it's safer to just go for the blade-through-heart or decapitation once you soften the target.

This all actually provides a gameplay decision. Again, see below.

Still, a level 2 cut to the forearm is shock 5: it will probably lead to another succesfull hit in the next exchange, as the opponent would lack 5 dices from his pool.
Of course if the opponent has armored arms but some other body part uncovered you go for that, but my point is that, given the advantages of hitting first, whatever strike is the easiest to accomplish is generally the best option.

Also, I'm interested in making a "cloack and sword" campaign, so shields and armor would be a little out of place. You can have a buckler or an heavy cloack, but that's it.
That's why I'm so focused on the "naked swordmen" scenario: I need a symmetrical fight to work well.

I understand where you come from, but I am afraid this is not the case. At least not with people I encountered.

While some of the players will definitely try to go this way, you have several tools to persuade them otherwise. Consider the level 3 wound: it's almost debilitating in its effect. And we are not talking about level 5

It's usually a matter for single wound to calm down players that try to act this way. Especially, if you - the GM - play the enemies as persons and not numbers.

Let me explain:
When we talk about our testing environment, the two average guys with average stats and "average" TNs, it's fine and dandy to think about numbers and not characters. But that should not be the experience you go for.

RoS is a game about decisions. Do you go for quick kill and risk getting hurt by the opponent? Or do you let your less-skilled friend fight for his life for next 2-3 rounds? Do you take on the two swordsmen so that the others can level the field? Or do you play it safe even though someone might get hurt?

You have definetly hyped me here.
It wouldn't be the first system that reads one way but plays in another.

Anyway, while we are on this, let's theorycraft in a vacuum and see how far Alan the dicewaster goes on the spherical cow surface.

Ok, test. How unfairly should I fight? "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." My Spiritual Attribute "Hatred: Count Rugen" fires up. That's somewhere from +1 to +5 dice to my CP… my Oath "I will not lose another fight" too… and my Destiny "To Defeat the Killer of My Father" will give me some dice for each roll…

You joke, but that was my idea had you asked me for a detailed character

Spoiler: Option 1: Bob

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Meet Bob
CP 12, Reflex 5
Toughness 5+
Mail hauberk, coif, gloves (AV 3) (-1 CP)
Battle axe (ATN 7 cut, heavy, DTN 9, ST+2 damage) and banded heater shield (DTN 5, AV 6, -0,5 CP)
Total CP = 10

Tactics:
Defensive stance, block first attack, draw first blood in second exchange. Once the field levels, go for block open.
Your attack: 16 dice with TN … I assume you meant "Arming Sword" as the "Side Sword"… the knightly side sword, not the courtly-renaissance blade?
Alan: Cut with TN 6 for 17 dice. Assumed 8+ successes.
Bob: Block with 10 dice, TN 5. Assumed 5+ successes.
3 net = ST + 1 damage + 3 = around 8 cutting damage
Which way did you cut?
Axe hand: TN 5 + AV 3 for gloves = 8 = you scratch the armor
Shield hand: TN 5 + AV 3 for gloves + AV 6 for shield… not even close.
Tanking is actually a tactic. Risky one, but functional.
Oh, second exchange: 4 dice cut against arms… that means actually 5 dice. 5 dice with TN 7 = most probably single success.
Damage: ST + 2 + 1 net success = 7…
Decrease the damage by toughness, leather armor? If I hit the fingers, Alan is safe due to the hilt - that’s 1 in 6 chance.
Otherwise he just got level 1 wound, which is actually fine.

You see, most level 1 hits to the arm do very little damage. Shock & pain tend to be around 4-WP, which means that average character can easily get hit and keep on fighting.

But I had an axe.

Hand axes cause additional shock: + (1 * Damage Level) Shock. In our case, just one die. Oh well, still - first blood.

Had I rolled two successes on the TN 7…? I just evened the field, retain initiative and can start with bind & strike.

And I forgot that battle axes are Long while arming swords are Medium (which gives me advantage until you hit me).

So, a backfire? Not really, just a tough fight.

I can't find any battle axe in the weapons list, there's the handed axe which is medium.
How did Bob got initiative when is Block failed? And where did he got 4 dices, when he had used all 10 to block?

Also, with sidesword I meant the Reinassance blade, but given that it's a thrust oriented weapon in RoS (even if it's actually well balanced, although some are more like rapiers), and having seen my doubts on these weapons above, I gladly switch it with an arming sword.

Spoiler: Option 2: Bobb

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Meet Bob's brother Bobb.
CP 12
Leather armor (AV 2), TO 4.
Longsword (held in both hands, ATN 6 for cutting, 7 for thrust, DNT 6, DMG ST +2 cut, ST +1 thrust)
Aggressive stance.
Evasive attack; upwards cut for 7 dice + 4 dice for evasive part.
Evasive attack means the guy jumps back and cuts at the same time. The dice spent in addition to the attack increase both your and mine ATN. Yours by 1 per each die spent, mine by 1 per each 2 dice spent.
Alan's TN is 10. Bobb's is 8.
After we solve who hits first, fun starts.
Alan will most probably get 1 or 2 successes, which means it will hit, but may cause at most level 1 or 2 wound, meaning Bobb's attack still hits.
Pray I do not hit location 4: groin. Shock 9, pain 9-WP (drops by 5 after 1d6-1 minutes). If I do, it's game over for Alan, even at level 1.

Well, if Alan sees his opponent throwing the red dice he should go for Elusive attack too. 4 dices to increase enemy ATN to 10, but with 2 dices from the stance and 1 from the arm cut he loses only one dice.
If he uses less dices he just make increase his chances to miss, without helping his defence in any way. He wants to roll all of his dices: his hope is to strike first and strike hard.

Spoiler: Option 3: Melinda

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We've had Bob and Bobb here. Meet Melinda, so we fulfill our diversity quota .
Melinda has a leather armor, covering most of her body, a steel vambrace and pauldron.
Melinda also a bastard sword, which gives her length advantage.
CP 14, just like Alan's.
Neutral stance, throws white die.
14 dice vs your 16 dice.
Melinda starts the duel while standing on top of stairs, giving her higher ground (+2). She'll also use these to make a terrain roll - push you back - so Alan loses balance.
Which means, if she succeeds you have to roll knockdown or Alan takes a long fall down the stairs.
Even if not, she still keeps the higher ground.
And now. Alan goes for full attack (-1 for medium weapon attacking long one), she decides to attack too, stealing initiative.
She uses 6 dice for the attack: thrust to the head (-1 CP). She pays 4 dice as activation cost for the stealing and uses 3 dice to increase your TN for the reflex roll.
You lose the roll (predictably, she rolls her REF against 6, you against 6+4) and get hit with 3 successes. That's somewhere around 8 damage…that's level 4 head injury.
Two options: Shock: All (you lose all your dice due to the big gap in your neck) or "Lose 1d6-1 of mental attributes, unconscious, CP-13... which actually gives you a fighting chance as you still have 4 dice to hit with!...before you fall down the stairs and most probably bleed from Blood Los 19).

I was going to say "Alan should buy initiative back!", but then checked RoS and you can't buy initiative back there as you can do in BotIT.
This leads to some interesting things: it's perfectly possible to throw white dice, then wait for the opponent attack and steal inititative. Even using 10 dices to get a quasi-guaranteed win in the initiative contest agaisnt an opponent with high perception leaves with 4 dices, plus 2 for stance and 1 for arm cut.
The attacker could think of using Elusive Attack, but that leaves open to Counters, as it uses to many dices.
So the attacker is doomed? The only winning move is to not play at all?