The Riddle of Steel: why not using all dices to attack ?

[Lacco]

Well, first of all, thank you for the detailed answer.
This exchange is really interesting and I'm getting a lot of hype about trying the system in practice.

I'm also glad.

Playing without giving too much time to the players to think is something I've seen suggested for more than one game. Never tried it in practice, but I'm skeptical of how doable it is.
Still, the idea is charming, so worth a try.

In practice, there are "learning curve" combats and "real" combats at my table.

Learning curve combats start easy (enemies are easily defeated, use sub-par tactics and I hold back a lot), and are place for discussion & tactics talk. Players get all the time they need and we discuss optimal moves and I give advice freely.

These usually cover:
1st melee:
- use same-length weapons, easy terrain, no fancy gimmicks
- calculation & distribution of CP over a round (best practice: have two bowls per player, one with fresh dice, one for spent CP dice; hand over exactly their CP to them)
- first initiative (best practice: hand them red d20 and white d6 or other dice that can be easily identified for the actual initiative throw; also it is good to actually have few "Initiative" tokens and hand them to the players/take it back so you do not get lost)
- cut & thrust maneuvers from offensive & parry/block and evade for defensive maneuvers
- damage & death
Goal is to show them the ropes and teach them the CP mechanics.

2nd melee
- add feint & one other maneuver
- length of weapon starts to be of use
- introduce SAs

3rd melee
- initiative tricks
- advanced maneuvers
- body language trick
- terrain rolls


After each of these, a "real" combat should occur. Meaning one that is actually dangerous and while the opponent sticks to the mechanics you just learned, he will use them to harm the PCs.

At this point, you need to use the GM's tools to set up the combat. The enemy is no longer the bumbling mook, it is a skilled fighter and will act so. You may also ask the players to stop giving advice/talking over each other - but usually this is not necessary. Once you tell the first player to
throw down initiative and hold your hand above the table (go for the drama), they will usually go silent.

You can also use a rule from RoS about hesitation. Should the player hesitate (I usually start counting down using 5 fingers, players tend to catch up) to provide an answer, they may only defend. It seems rough, so you should warn them beforehand - if two characters throw white/white, they may chat, intimidate each other, ridicule, discuss tactics or "groupthink" tactics - I'm fine with that. But once blades start swinging, combat should flow fast.

Assuming she had an ATN of 6 and you had a DTN of 5 on Total Evasion, she had a 20% chance of doing 5 or less successes, and even then you chances of matching her would have been 61% against 5 successes or 84% against 4. Your chances of getting 6 or more successes were 29%, and in that case it would have still no be enough for 58% of her rolls.
In short her chances to not hit you in the first exchange was little more than 20%.
What kind of tactic could have she used with an higher success ratio?

She had ATN 5 (rapier), I had DTN 4 (full evasion ala RoS).

She should have played to the strength of the build. Think about this:
How do you know the opponents' CP? You test it.
How do you test it? Careful defensive and offensive.
Once you know the approximate CP, what can you do?

From GM's perspective, it's again a thing about roleplaying opponents taking into account their capabilities, intellectual abilities, tactical thinking...etc.

A simple peasant with CP 8 will know two tactics: run away & throw stones or bash bash bash. Had she gone for weak cut, the peasant would not guess a feint = she could have deceived him and wound him in first exchange. After all, his decision to run came after she produced the large amount of dice.

Not before. Had she gone for cut for 4 dice, the peasant would try to parry for 5 and she could have either let it go, to see how many dice he has... or she could have gone for a feint with 4+4 (discard 4) dice to go straight for the kill. Both would be viable tactics. After she knew he had only 8 CP, her plan could have changed. A series of quick feints, few light wounds and he's down. Or bait him to overspend and go for a counter.

I've checked the rules and those also need the attacker to win the contest.
I don't think there's any maneuver that does anything if you roll less successes than the opponent, hence why dice advantage is so important.

I think this is a difference between RoS vs. BoIT again.

Toss & Stop Short do not require the attacker to win: both are basically opportunities to cancel an oncoming attack if you have the initiative (they do not give the opportunity to attack back, including stealing initiative!) for low dice investment (ideal if you overspent). For Stop Short, you only need 2 or 3 dice to increase opponents' TN that your respective attributes do not matter and for some builds it allows to actually gain some advantage in fight. At least in RoS. For Toss, you need to hold something in your hand (it is actually suggested that Toss could be repeatedly used with someone's cloak after a break in combat), but a single die is sufficient for it to be effective.

Example: You and your opponent have both 10 CP and are dueling using renaissance sideswords & cloaks. You attacked for 9 CP, the opponent went for full evasion for 5 CP and it was a tie. Similar as above. Had you used your whole pool, you would be statistically dead. You still have one die. Now you have the initiative, but with 1 CP left you are afraid your opponent may launch an attack and hurt you easily. So you Toss your cloak for the 1 die. Your opponent may - according to the rules - either dodge or not. If he dodges, he may allocate dice vs. TN 7. If he does not, the roll is only on you, unresisted. Either way, the opponent loses exactly 1 die...and you retain initiative.

The only limitation here is the amount of items you can toss.

I went to read the rapier description in RoS and raised an eyebrow. "Rapiers are light weapons unsuited for parrying heavy swings"? I see somebody is confusing rapiers and smallwords, and even the latter can parry big swings.
-3 to swing damage? So less damage than a punch?

I usually refer to Flower of Battle when weapons are the topic. Of course, here we are talking about late-era rapiers that were mostly used for their point, not blade, with "fencers' grip", which disallows really powerful swing attacks and is best suited for lighter swordplay, not parrying axes and such. There is also the possibility of using "draw cut" maneuver, which adds +1 to damage for cuts, but I digress.

In Flower of Battle, some weapons have the descriptor "heavy" and these are actually used for the higher DTN. Most swords still count as light, so for example sabers and longswords will still get the lower DTN.

Ok, ramblings aside, why should you attack you a thrust at all? If the opponent is also attacking or is without dices, fine, but as first strike is sounds like you are asking to get expulsed.
Considering that Evasive attack doesn't work with thrusts, aren't thrust-centric weapons a bad choice? Especially the rapier that can't really cut, to say nothing of having to defend against cuts (DTN 8! Come on!)

We are going in circles, but mostly because your opponent does not know your CP and does not know if he can afford to go for expulsion in first round. If you know you have a dice advantage, you may safely go for expulsion - if not, it's a risk but may be still worth it.

Again: DTN 8 is for e.g. greatsword, or axes. A longsword vs. rapier gets still the DTN 6.

Thrusting attacks often wound worse - they go deep, so the pain & shock values are often worse. Aiming for certain zones gets easier with thrusts. And you get your own benefit: if you go red-red, then with thrust your chances of landing first wound actually go up (REF+1).

And oftentimes there is the advantage of length or lower ATNs in specialized weapons. See the ATN for axes as opposed to ATN for spears.

Still, a level 2 cut to the forearm is shock 5: it will probably lead to another succesfull hit in the next exchange, as the opponent would lack 5 dices from his pool.
Of course if the opponent has armored arms but some other body part uncovered you go for that, but my point is that, given the advantages of hitting first, whatever strike is the easiest to accomplish is generally the best option.

Can't disagree with these.

Also, I'm interested in making a "cloack and sword" campaign, so shields and armor would be a little out of place. You can have a buckler or an heavy cloack, but that's it.
That's why I'm so focused on the "naked swordmen" scenario: I need a symmetrical fight to work well.

Please define "work well". For now it looks like you need a combat system where the solution is not only "brute force 4 the win", but if there are other considerations, I'd like to know about them.

As for the shields & armor... okay. I'd still allow some hidden vambraces/bracers (at least leather) and doublets. Light mail worn under additional layer of clothing.

In those cases you should go for civilian swords (e.g. rapier, smallsword, sidesword, arming swords, backswords and short swords) at best, with cudgels, daggers and spears playing their own roles. What is the focus of the campaign? En Garde...?

You have definetly hyped me here.
It wouldn't be the first system that reads one way but plays in another.

Anyway, while we are on this, let's theorycraft in a vacuum and see how far Alan the dicewaster goes on the spherical cow surface.

You joke, but that was my idea had you asked me for a detailed character

Jokes aside, Inigo is actually playable easily in RoS. Including the scene where he gets gravely wounded yet defeats Rugen. He just runs on SAs (Spiritual Attributes) at the end of the combat.

I can't find any battle axe in the weapons list, there's the handed axe which is medium.
How did Bob got initiative when is Block failed? And where did he got 4 dices, when he had used all 10 to block?

Again, Flower of Battle is my source for weapon stats.

Bob got initiative when Alan ran out of dice, and Bob decided to go for it in second exchange.

The 4 dice is a typo from first version of the rant where I gave him 14 CP as start. My mistake. Still, 2 dice at TN 7... 1 success could be possible.

Also, with sidesword I meant the Reinassance blade, but given that it's a thrust oriented weapon in RoS (even if it's actually well balanced, although some are more like rapiers), and having seen my doubts on these weapons above, I gladly switch it with an arming sword.

A bit.
Cut & Thrust may be what you are looking for (as "renaissance sword" - the ones with fancy finger guards that are used for cutting but are light and single-handed).
They also get the nice ATN/DTN combo of 6 for everything, very balanced weapon.

Well, if Alan sees his opponent throwing the red dice he should go for Elusive attack too. 4 dices to increase enemy ATN to 10, but with 2 dices from the stance and 1 from the arm cut he loses only one dice.
If he uses less dices he just make increase his chances to miss, without helping his defence in any way. He wants to roll all of his dices: his hope is to strike first and strike hard.

The example was meant: Bob keeps aggressive stance, throws white. In this case, Alan may go for Evasive attack, but it is more likely that he goes for straight attack, and Bob does not mind his attack landing second.

So it goes:
Both have aggressive stance
Alan RED, Bob WHITE
Alan attacks.
Bob decides to go for evasive attack, not stealing initiative = his attack lands second.
Jumping back gives him a good chance Alan will actually miss = advantage Bob.

It's not a 100% plan (nothing actually is), but aside from Alan getting extremely lucky with 5+ successes, it's a good plan.

Of course, an experienced player/character will notice an aggressive stance with white die and will get suspicious.

But again, this is mainly a desperate "save myself" reaction. Imagine following situation:

You are fighting a foe armed with a sword, who - obviously - goes for the kill, disregarding his own safety, and throws everything into the combat. You do not have personal investment in the combat (save for "defend your life" which gives you no dice). Do you continue the fight? And if yes, what do you do? Throw everything in and hope for success?

I know it sounds like metagaming (for the GM), but if an NPC sees a ridiculous amount of dice, they will either flee or go for desperate measures. If they see a normal amount, they will fight according to the rules.

I was going to say "Alan should buy initiative back!", but then checked RoS and you can't buy initiative back there as you can do in BotIT.
This leads to some interesting things: it's perfectly possible to throw white dice, then wait for the opponent attack and steal inititative. Even using 10 dices to get a quasi-guaranteed win in the initiative contest agaisnt an opponent with high perception leaves with 4 dices, plus 2 for stance and 1 for arm cut.
The attacker could think of using Elusive Attack, but that leaves open to Counters, as it uses to many dices.

Flower of Battle suggest a different solution to stealing initiative - activation cost depends on your proficiency, not opponent's PER. It moves between 5 and 3 CP. Both of you may then add dice to your REF from your combat pool for the roll of "who hits first" - meaning that if the opponent spends all his dice as Alan did, he opens himself to this more than if he left few dice behind.

It also suggests you add length penalties to REF rolls for determining who hits first...

And yes, it is perfectly possible to do the "iaido" thing where the hero waits for opponents' attack and then moves in to attack faster. After all, it's all a valid tactic...

As you can see, the system is quite complex: and we haven't even gotten to Twitching (Zwerchcopteeeer! you hide few dice into your hand before attacking via cut, the opponent must defend successfully - after the attack you declare twitch, show your hand - if you have more dice than your enemy has successes, you actually keep initiative, attack the opposite side and add double the dice to your next attack) or favouring (oooh... let's see: you send your GM a note about your character holding shield in specific area to cover it better and pay some dice... if the enemy attacks the area you are focusing, your dice investment gets doubled for purposes of defence)...

...so many options.

Yet often what works best is the easy approach. Defend well, attack weak, keep dice in reserve to scam the opponent, search for opening.

So the attacker is doomed? The only winning move is to not play at all?

To answer your question: Yes. And no.

The system simulates real combat - which means there is always a chance for failure, wound and death. The last one can be postponed via Drama mechanic if things get out of hand, but players should be ready their backsides will get kicked - and that wounds take time to heal. In BoIT the Mending magic helps speed up healing (to days instead of weeks), but players need to take care not to get hit too much.

So in a way, yes. The attacker is only postponing their inevitable death by fighting. As we all do.

On the other hand, the winning move is this:

"My name is Inigo Montoya..." I have proficiency of 12 (as fencing master) and Reflex 7. And +5 dice from my Hatred (six-fingered fencer) SA, +5 from my Loyalty (defending my friends), +5 from my Oath (avenge my father's killer), +5 from my Conscience (I am fighting for the right thing), totaling at 39 CP.

Why do you fight when you have no investment in the outcome...?

And yes, that fight is the climax of the adventure, but your players should know by then that they need to fight mainly when it matters. Choose your fights. Decide which ones to take, which ones not.

So maybe the other winning move is to have Charlie knock out Alan from behind when he faces off Bob - after all, Alan is not Bob's antagonist, just a guy who wants to fight. But if Alan is actually the second-in-command of the Antagonist, Bob should have an SA that will help him with the fight.

BTW, if you want to run a practice combat outside your player group, I think I can arrange one