Can we build the math from the ground up? (And does Vancian help or hurt that?)

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, this is the unfortunate result of character archetypes being way too one-dimensional in order to promote character variety. In order to avoid people being upset that you're restricting their roleplay or forcing them to be a certain type of fighter, they just give you the generic fighter that is everyone from Spartacus to Musashi. It's tough to identify nonviolent methods for a character class whose very identity centers around weapons and armor. Illusionists naturally have it easier since there are many nonviolent examples and possibilities that stem from that cookie cutter mold.

One solution to this is separating the skill system from character classes entirely. Allowing character progression in noncombat venues independent of one's combat profession would permit the level of depth and complexity that having generic archetypes seeks to encourage. But that means gutting classes that are primarily skill related and have identities in favor of making the Murder Hobo class slightly less straightforward in his approach. I mean when your primary attribute is Strength every problem is solved with muscles.

I think making broader nonviolent powers for physical niches can be done, I think it just requires a more open mind.

For example, broadening the term "Strength" to include things like Telekinesis, or allowing you to dominate someone's will. Something like a Perception stat would allow you to see an attack coming, see through invisibility, or even see into the future.

I guess it comes down to the classic "Guy At The Gym" problem. If we try to define someone based on our real-life physics, it's going to have problems when there is another option that doesn't have those limitations. Having a "Guy At The Gym" isn't inherently the problem, though, as you can make a game with a bunch of realistic folk in a realistic game.

The problem is, "Real-Life" has inherent limitations, while "Everything that's not Real Life" does not, so it's really silly to try to keep those two options on the same standard. As soon as you start breaking the rules on physics, that has to be the standard.

In a way, MAGIC has to be the standard, or it has to come with so many penalties and problems that players should have a natural aversion to choosing it as an option.