OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[Riftwolf]

The magic in this case, IMO, was the oath the people who were now dead swore. An oath, in middle earth, is magic anyone can work.



The living men, then, were the ones who bound themselves to this fate when they swore the oath to Isildur. And since the oath was sworn to Isildur only Isildur or his heir could release them from it. Any king of Isildur's lineage could have done so, but none ever did. And thus they lingered after death in an awful half-life until they could be freed from the power of their own words.

But because they had bound themselves to Isildur by means of this oath, Aragorn had power over them. That is why I call this an act of magic: Because he summoned them by the power he had over them, and dismissed them afterwards by that same power. That's not Vancian magic, but it is one of the five types of magic of the older form: Summoning, binding, cleansing, banishing, sending.

That is why I take issue with the idea of "magic", in Middle-Earth. It's not a Vancian casting system. There are not necessarily any identifiable verbal or somatic components , and we certainly don't see Gandalf trying to collect material components for his spells. Magic is more like what the pacific islanders call mana, personal power. People speak words, and the words have power. That is why Gandalf was reluctant to utter the language of Mordor even at noon. It also doesn't have definable, game-mechanic-friendly effects. Gandalf is exactly as powerful as he needs to be for the purpose of plot.

And the same with Frodo -- he casts a spell in the wight's lair, summoning Tom Bombadil. Again, it is not his own power that causes this to happen, but the bond he shares with Tom, in that Tom has promised to help him within Tom's realm if Frodo recites the rhyme. In this it is more like the magic of an FF summoner than western-style magic, since it is more about relating to spiritual beings than it is wielding raw power through repeatable processes. That second is more like fantastic technology than it is "magic" per se.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Perhaps someone with better LOTR knowledge will correct me on this, but Aragorn saving Faramir and Eowyn was a magical feat, as previously Aragorn had been unable to heal Frodos wound from the Morgul Blade (Faramir was hit by a Black Dart, while Eowyn was hit with the Black Breath as the Witch-King died (I can't remember if Merry made his save against it because of his Hobbit nature)) with herblore, only delay the poison. Its further explained that Aragorn can cast magic thanks to his elvish blood. Tolkien made clear regular humans (and possibly hobbits) couldn't learn spells.
Saying that I disliked the Aragorn/Denethor dynamic in the story (the guy who spent his life in the wilderness is a better ruler than the guy who spent his life ruling a land under siege thanks to innate nobility).

I don’t think that’s a good example. That particular death was anticlimactic for a reason.

Spoiler

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It’s the worst death Tywin could have had. For all his grandstanding about his legacy, the aura of dread he cast upon the entire continent, the intricate plots and the mass violence he wrought, he died for insulting a smallfolk girl whose name he couldn’t recall and for the sadly mundane crime of being an audible father.

Death in ASOIF is only random for bit characters, just like it is in LOTR, but there are just so many more bit characters.

Sounds kinda Tarquiny to me. Tarquinesque?