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Thread: Why is creating undead Evil?

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    Default Re: Why is creating undead Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Just because free-willed undead can be non-evil doesn't make the force that animates them "non-evil". A Chaotic Good vampire who srtives to hurt no one and maintain his morality still radiates as Evil though (don't believe it? Look at the table for Detect Evil). They may also detect as Good, if they are Good in alignment, but all undead radiate Evil according to their Hit Dice. Their very creation -and continued existence- is a crime against nature.
    The fact Undead is always detected by Detect Evil is the obvious failure of game-design: why to have Detect Undead then?


    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It just says that Limited Wish, Miracle, and Wish, will all free the trapped soul.
    OK, it's correct.
    Still, RAW for Imprison Soul and Soul Shackles don't says about any problems with resurrection of whosoever soul was imprisoned/shackled...

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    For that matter - I get the impression that "Evil clerics always use negative energy instead of positive energy" might be a 3e thing too. Did 2e or 1e have the same Turn Undead vs Rebuke Undead cleric dichotomy?

    BECMI's Rules Cyclopaedia certainly didn't - Chaotic clerics turned undead exactly the same way that Lawful clerics did. It was only "Chaotic travelling fighters" (avengers, the paladin's Chaotic counterparts) that got a Command Undead option, regarding their Turning ability.
    It was already said pre-3E only Evil (not Neutral) Priests could Rebuke/Command Undead
    Moreover:
    in the 1E, they could also Rebuke/Command less powerful fiends
    in the 2E, they lost that ability, but instead acquired ability to Turn... Paladins - yes, even living ones (just with penalty, and Turn only - not Destroy)


    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Is that in the section for ALTERNATE setting options? As in, DEVIATION from standard default RAW?
    No, nothing indicates it.
    Besides, Nocturnus is kinda canon - because Necropolitans are from it

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    If the person has been resurrected, and is not a corpse, what are you using as the target for the Revive Undead?
    Resurrection (or Reincarnate) is required only "some small portion of the creature’s body" - the "remaining part" is a viable target to Revive Undead.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    OR, you know, the theory that doesn't require you to denigrate the creators of the game you're playing as "incompetent". That there is some connection between the soul of the person whose body was used and the skeleton/zombie.

    Like I initially said, it's circumstantial evidence, and thus this is not 100% RAW, but the soul of the person may be somehow "trapped" in the zombie or skeleton.
    Soul is absolutely not trapped in the Zombie, because:
    1. Magic Jar: "Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls."
    2. Putrefaction spell (Dragon #300): "When the victim dies, his body immediately animates as a zombie under the control of the caster. Additionally, the victim's soul transforms into a ghost that cannot move more than 30 feet from the caster."



    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    3e doesn't dwell much on what a skeleton or zombie does in the absence of orders.

    5e does. It states that a skeleton or zombie, because it is driven by hatred of the living, will attack them unless it has been given specific "do not attack the living outside of special circumstances" orders and is still under control.

    So they're not just automatons - they are hatred-consumed beings.
    I checked 5E SRD - Skeleton isn't Mindless there: Int 6
    For comparison: 5E Orc is Int 7, Ogre - Int 5
    Thus, since Skeletons in 5E are completely sapient creatures, no wonder they have their own ideas outside of the creator's commands


    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It's mostly the same universe, regardless of the edition.

    2e Forgotten Realms, 3e, 4e, 5e - all the same place, just with different rulesets, each, imperfectly, representing it.

    3.0e skeletons are Neutral. 3.5e skeletons are Evil. But which is the outlier? This can be found by comparing the many editions. And in most of them, Skeletons are Evil. Or Chaotic, in Rules Cyclopaedia (Chaotic being mostly, but not always, synonymous with Evil in that edition).
    Spoiler: Really?
    Show
    OD&D Book 2, Monsters & Treasure:
    SKELETONS/ZOMBIES: Skeletons and Zombies act only under the instructions
    of their motivator, be it a Magic-User or Cleric (Chaos). They are usually only
    found near graveyards, forsaken places, and dungeons; but there is a possibility
    of their being located elsewhere to guard some item (referee’s option). There is
    never any morale check for these monsters; they will always attack until totally
    wiped out.
    AD&D Monster Manual (1979):
    SKELETON
    ...
    INTELLIGENCE: Non-
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral
    Monstrous Compendium (1989):
    Skeleton Animal Monster
    ... ... ...
    INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0) Non- (0) Non- (0)
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral Neutral Neutral
    Monstrous Manual (1993):
    Skeleton
    Skeleton Animal Monster
    ... ... ...
    INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0) Non- (0) Non- (0)
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral Neutral Neutral
    Skeleton, Giant
    INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral
    Skeleton, Warrior
    INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
    TSR Trading Cards (1991):
    Warrior, Skeleton
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
    INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (16)
    TSR Trading Cards (1992):
    Skeleton
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral
    INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
    Warrior, Skeleton
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
    INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
    TSR Trading Cards (1993):
    Skeleton
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral
    INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
    Add in D20 Modern - and 3.5/5E are clear outliers.


    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    Ok, cool. So you've bolded what a mindless skeleton will do while under control. You have, however, failed to bold the last line, which directly contradicts your second point about the "-" in all diet columns, as well as undermines your idea that they're perfect little . Here's the part you failed to bold:

    That seems pretty in-line with the theory I discussed above. They consume/destroy/etc until they themselves are destroyed, because that's what they're created to do. They are created purely to destroy, which seems pretty much spot on supported by the idea that they are created using a connection to the negative energy plane, a plane that exists to consume, destroy, etc.
    Don't get too excited about this line: I checked 3.0 book - it was the first line in the "COMBAT" section
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2020-10-17 at 07:08 PM.