Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
It has nothing to do with "optimal". It has to do with "living up to expectations". If the player wants a powerful anti-magic juggernaut, Forsaker does not do that, even at lower optimization levels. If the player expects and looks forward to something Forsaker does not do, and you know that, it's worth sharing your insight. I imagine that CMagnum knew what their fellow player was expecting, and knew that it wouldn't work out with Forsaker levels.

I mean, the books are absolutely horrible at telling you what works and what doesn't (even to the point of misrepresenting class features, sometimes). The Forsaker class description, for example, says: "By depending upon his own resources alone, the forsaker becomes stronger, tougher, smarter, and more nimble than any of his companions". It's wrong, but anyone reading up on Forsaker could think "oh boy, this is awesome, and look, the book says it's powerful, too". It's easy to get disappointed after that.
Except none of that is what the OP listed. Here's the first sentence of the thread,

So I was having an argument with a friend about vow of poverty and how much money impacts the game.
This has nothing to do with Forsaker, and everything to do with VoP and WBL.

Vow of Poverty can work at even most tables, I would figure. For the most part, it's not a "weak" feat, especially when taken on a spellcaster or with a character that can innately cover its own weaknesses. It is, however, a sub-optimal feat because it doesn't match the flexibility of raw wealth. I would suggest, however, that characters are not intended to simply have raw wealth and are intended to acquire wealth via magic items or other loot from dungeons, encounters, etc. so in that context, VoP may be better, because you know you'll get deflection, natural armor, ability score, resistance, etc increases at regular intervals. That simply isn't guaranteed to be the case for a "vanilla" character. It's assumed, but not guaranteed.

As for expectation management, the only reason that something won't work as the player expects it is if the DM is doing so intentionally. If the DM is following the rules for CR and is creating creatures with class levels using same-similar methods that the PCs used (elite array or same value point-buy), a Forsaker is going to do just fine. People like to throw a Shadow around as over CR, but it's really not. It's a CR 3 creature, and pretty much any party of level 3 PCs can handle it. By level 3, the fighter has a magic weapon. By level 3, the rogue has a collection of useable magic items they've collected via loot or purchased. By level 3, level 1 spell slots are less of a precious resource. It's challenging for some party compositions, but it's not the party slayer that everyone claims it to be.

I am not familiar with Forsaker, so I can't speak to it specifically, but I would be surprised if it was as useless as everyone claims it is when you put it in a party with 3 other characters and send the party up against an appropriate level encounter.