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    Troll in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    theres nothing to disprove because you havent proven anything.

    polymorph says you get extraordinary attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities.
    feats are stated to be an extraordinary ability.

    nowhere in d&d i can find has feats ever been stated to be an extraordinary special quality.
    spells like shapechange don't say they give you all of the feats of the monster your turning into.

    so extraordinary abilities are further split into
    extraordinary attacks
    extraordinary special qualities
    and everything that is extraordinary but is not an attack or a special quality.
    MM page6 disagrees with you. The paragraph about "Special Attacks & Special Qualities" calls both as "Special Ability" out. And both can be either extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like. Same as in the SRD:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Special Abilities

    A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.
    Which leads to the conclusion that an extraordinary ability can only either an Ex attack or an Ex quality. There is nothing else, contrary to what you are suggesting with your last line.

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1
    like the gargoyles freeze ability
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm
    its an extraordinary ability but neither an attack or a special quality.
    Look again, it's a special quality and mentioned last in the line.

    _____________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Look at stat blocks. Human bonus feats are under feats. Not special attacks or special qualities.

    Not to mention the PHB describes feats as natural ability which by extention is validated by the alter self spell with racial feats.

    Alternate form does not give you all the physical qualities of your new form which also means you don't get racial feats.
    As far as I know we only have starting package statblocks for humans, if you can point me to more accurate one for a generic human I would be happy.

    Further the HBF itself and all feats (unless otherwise mentioned in the feat) are extraordinary abilities ( either EX attacks or EX qualities). Feats aren't magical by default, thus they can't be spell-like or supernatural by default (which are both magical). Exceptions exist and are called out as such or indicating that they are magical.

    and I already explained that MOMF lvl 7 gives it... but I'll repost the quote again for you
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Many Forms lvl7:
    Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.
    MOMF gives you past lvl7 all extraordinary special qualities (= extraordinary non attack special ability).
    Base Wild Shape gives you all extraordinary special attacks

    Conclusion, we have EX special attack + EX special qualities = all EX abilities

    ____________________

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    There's an argument to be made that human racial traits are (Ex) special qualities.
    I don't think there's a statblock for a basic human, but the racial traits of all the other standard player races are (Ex), according to the MM.

    ....

    The only question is if human racial traits are (Ex) or not.
    I'm not aware of any statblock explicitly stating so one way or the other, but all the other player race traits are so i'd say it's at least a fair assumption to make.

    Edit: Clarification
    It is easy to proof that human racial traits can only be EX abilities. You just need to look up the 4 possible categories and their distinctions.

    1. It can't be a Natural Ability since those are tied to your physical form. HBF and feats are by default mental abilities since you learn em and they aren't physical abilities that you get because of the physical form of your race.

    2&3. They can be Spell-like or Supernatural. Since neither the HBF nor feats in general are magical (exceptions exist as noted in those specific feats) they don't fit in here.

    4. But they (HBF and feats in general) fit into the Extraordinary category very well.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Extraordinary Abilities
    Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

    These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

    Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.
    Sounds like HBF and feat in general to me.

    edit: gramma and text structure. sorry it's early and I just woke up... -.-
    to prevent further misinterpretations I'll corrected the passages: 1, 2&3