Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
With a play history only in dnd5e and a shaky desire to run a more homebrew campaign its been suggested on other posts that some of my thoughts might be better suited to other systems.
Now there are plenty out there so what im after is really three things. 1. What does each bring that 5e doesn't? What does it lose? And how easy is it to learn as the dm, and for potential players. Ive had suggestions for pathfinder, numenera, savage worlds, call of cathulu, and even 3.5. So where do I go for what experience?
If you generally don't care for homebrew and want a system that (a) Just Works, (b) makes an effort to be easy to DM, and (c) has an enthusiastic and above all helpful fanbase, I can highly recommend 4th edition D&D or 13th Age, both of which meet those qualifications in slightly different ways.

4e D&D
Pros:
  • If you already know D&D 5e, there's not much to unlearn. Saving throws work a bit differently, and there are static Fortitude/Reflex/Will defenses rather than rolling Con/Dex/Wis saving throws, but a lot of stuff will be close to familiar
  • Balance. You can generally trust that 4e works as advertised. A monster listed as level 4 is an appropriate threat for level 4 parties (though you usually need more than one if it's an ordinary monster, not an elite or solo)
  • Character balance. The worst excesses you get in "unbalanced" 4e content are weak (or strong) damage output or getting to apply a single skill in lots of situations.
  • Fully supported by Roll20...but see below for wrinkles.
  • Rules (as of Rules Compendium) pretty much always work as intended and have clarity and specificity as a driving design goal.
  • Superb tactical action. The game is designed to make every fight interesting and challenging, assuming both players and DMs will exploit their options intelligently. You're empowered to not pull punches, because you have a good idea how strong the things you throw at the party will be.
  • Non-combat support. Despite claims to the contrary, 4e is also quite good for the RP and non-combat stuff. Skill Challenges enable interesting, dynamic scenes without using the combat rules but still invoking real choices and ranges of success. Quests give a formalized means of defining how a character's personal journey has furthered their advancement. Rituals and utility powers cover most non-combat effects the party might find interesting.
  • Enthusiastic fanbase. It's hard to oversell how important it is to play with people who WANT to play. 4e fans genuinely love the game and will work hard to make a good experience.
  • Teamwork actually MATTERS! Unlike 3e (and to an extent 5e), you REALLY DO need to work as a team to win. Knowing how to support and play off of your allies is important, and a group will really feel like comrades in arms, rather than 4-6 solo adventurers who happen to adventure in the same place at the same time.
  • [Debatable] Survivability. Making a serious blunder can still get your character killed, but surviving early mistakes so you can learn from them is almost always possible. This makes for a much easier early-game experience, especially for newbies; you don't need to fear going splat before you reach level 3 because an orc got a lucky crit.
  • Everything is core! Never worry about official content (whether magazines or books) being broken. It may be strong or weak, but never so bad as to harm the game experience overall.

Cons:
  • Material can be hard to find if you're only able to use books.
  • The official Character Builder is no longer supported, and the digital tools are now gone. Workarounds using the old offline CB are of dubious legality. Character building with pen and paper is totally doable, but obviously a lot slower.
  • Roll20's character sheet is theoretically able to automate nearly all combat powers...but in practice it requires you to learn the "language" it's coded in. Not all that hard, but a hurdle. Likewise, the battlemap works, but is clunky in some ways.
  • Slow play. As said, battles are meant to be exciting tactical affairs, but can take a lot of time. There are tricks to speed it up, but newbies on both sides of the screen may just need time before they're comfortable.
  • Large-scale homebrew is hard. Inventing a whole new class or Paragon Path is a Big Deal, requiring many new powers. Smaller things like builds/subclasses, feats, skills, and races are all easy, but even with 25 classes and several dozen builds/subclasses, some wish for more options.
  • There's a LOT of feats and powers, and many are mediocre. I, personally, just look up a charop guide and pick the good options, but some find the "bloat" of powers and feats offensive.
  • Presentation. 4e expects you to bring the flavor and style; it's got the rules to back you up, but some find it overly dry and technical. Again, not always a problem, but for some it ruins the experience.
  • Emphasis on refluffing/reskinning rather than homebrew, and representing monsters differently at different levels. Some find it problematic that the game encourages reinterpretation of the same rules to new concepts, and some find it offensive that an ogre can be a "solo" at first level and a "minion" at 11th level. (Different statblocks representing that an ogre is a huge threat to a 1st level character and a mere speedbump to an 11th level character.)

Elevator pitch: Have you wanted a role-playing game where choices matter, teamwork is essential, and dynamic action is never far away? 4th edition D&D offers that experience, and provides excellent support to the DM to make it happen. Whether you stick with classic fantasy, fly in spaceships, or go for low-magic sword-and-sandal, 4e has you covered. Critically acclaimed takes on Dark Sun and Eberron, along with a fascinating implied setting in the world of Nentir Vale and the award-winning Zeitgeist adventure path from ENWorld, give you plenty of diverse starting points if you're looking for a prewritten setting.

13th Age
Pros:
  • Most of the balance of 4e, with the presentation and feel of 3.x, which should surprise no one because it's literally designed by Heinsoo and Tweet, the lead designers of 4e and 3e respectively.
  • Very fiction-focused. With One Unique Things, Backgrounds as skills (more below), Icon relationships, item quirks, and more, it's got roleplay hooks friggin errywhere.
  • [Debatable] Fistfuls of dice. If you like rolling, this will have your back--you usually roll damage dice scaled by your level.
  • Midway between "tatical" and "TotM" combat: by using range bands, positioning matters, but isn't an exacting affair. You can lean things in either direction if you so choose.
  • Anti-bloat. While there's still quite a few choices, 13A avoids bloat by keeping feats focused, and making it so you only choose a small number of talents.
  • Spread of class complexity. Especially with the very excellent 13 True Ways supplement, there's options for every taste as far as intricate vs straightforward classes go.
  • Easy to homebrew. Unlike 4e, making new classes isn't much work, and there's a pretty sizable homebrew community for such a relatively small game.
  • Workable for almost any setting. I really like the default setting, but you can make this engine work in nearly any setting with just minor tweaks (and, IMO, designing custom Icons is fun.)
  • As with 4e, survivability is pretty good. You aren't likely to die due to bad luck, but bad choices can still really hurt.
  • Escalation Die. One of the best mechanics in this system, and one that many many many people liked so much they've stolen it for use in other systems.
  • Monster design is sort of midway between 4e and 5e. Baseline monster features are as balanced as 4e, but the Nastier Specials stuff (e.g. a banshee's death wail) are specifically NOT balanced around, with the expectation that you, as DM, need to think about how they'll affect your party.
  • Excellent, excellent rules discussion. Unlike any other game I've seen, the designers talk directly to the reader about their thought processes on various rules--and even explicitly say when the two of them disagree about how something should work. The 13t Age books are GREAT for green DMs still learning the ropes, because they talk about the WHY behind the rules in ways I've never seen elsewhere.



Cons:
  • Only 10 levels. The "incremental advance" rules let you spool things out longer, but if you want a real long-runner, you may be disappointed by reaching "the end" of levels a long time before the campaign wraps.
  • Saves work like 4e, but have variable target number (easy, normal, hard). This may be confusing for people very used to 3e or 5e.
  • Small list of classes (compared to 4e and especially 3.x/PF). As noted, homebrew covers a lot of the gaps, but you aren't keen on that so this could be a sticking point. It's more than 5e though, if you include the 13TW classes, so...
  • Feats are mostly talent-specific. The bloat may be down, but feats can feel fiddly and the whole tier progression thing can be confusing.
  • Backgrounds can really take time to learn how to handle well. They're great for eliminating the "my character SHOULD be skilled at this" problem, but you have to learn how to say "no" at the right times without discouraging creative approaches to challenges.
  • A lot of people really don't like the Icon mechanics. I think they're rad, but many threads pop up asking how to remove them. This may or may not apply to you too.
  • Strong links between specific classes and specific complexity levels. This one bothers me a lot. You really can't play a "complex" Paladin. You really can't play a "simple" Wizard. Fighters are somewhat in the eye of the beholder, as some may find them restrictively simple while others may feel like the "flexible attacks" are too complicated. There are (as usual) homebrew solutions to these issues, but if you want to play 100% by the book, they'll be present.
  • Minimal non-book support. There IS a very helpful discord and a small but devoted fanbase. But outside of that, there's really no integration with anything as far as I know. No digital tools, no VTT stuff, minimal character sheet things...the game is MOSTLY simple enough that you may not need them, but it is a notable lack compared to most versions of D&D/PF.

Elevator Pitch: Do you want a game that balances out balance and story, that has high-flying action without all the technical minutia? Do you love games where every PC is a hero standing out from the crowd, where big forces and organizations play a role in shaping the story? Then check out 13th Age. Brilliant rules design, diverse but not excessive options, and clear yet flavorful text make for a great experience whether as DM or player. Develop your character's story with their One Unique Thing and Backgrounds that turn your history into the skills you use to save the day, while your connections to the great Icons provide drama and resources to push the game forward. Enjoy the rich history of the Dragon Empire setting, or develop your own with custom Icons and lore!

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I have tried, as much as possible, to give a fair and unbiased reporting. I love both of these systems, but I recognize that neither is perfect. I truly hope you give at least one of them a look, as they are both excellent games that rarely get the love they deserve.