Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
But whether they are right about the changes being good is up for debate. just because someone's been in a franchise the longest doesn't mean they know what is best for it. now you can point to examples where the fans were right, and you probably right about those examples, but on general principle, I can't take fans word as somehow always right.



Highly subjective. people would have to agree on what that is before we can do it, so that particular bit is about as helpful as telling someone to "not lose".

but this is off my point, my point is: whether they subversive or not has nothing to do with how bad these things are. subversion is a tool. a tool being used badly is bad writing, not subversion being bad. you can say what you want about GRRM but at least he has the courtesy to keep his stuff in his own universes and not ruin anyone elses. however these "subversive" endings listed in this thread just seem to be downer endings, so not really subversive at all given such things are really old, they're just different a different trope.

so your an audience that really doesn't like downer endings or tragedies. okay, whatever, I don't like those either, but all our opinions are subjective. what really is being protested against here is grimdark here is OSP's thoguhts on that since Red says it better than I could ever do. But if your really talking about subversion and the GOT disaster here is the OSP video for that: plot twists

while I don't like grimdark, its not inherently bad writing, and a plot twist isn't inherently bad writing either, but proper twists need to make sense with what comes before it. both the twisted and untwisted version of the experience just need to be valid ways of enjoying the experience.

that some writers don't have a good sense of proper set up is no reason to dislike the act of subversion or twists itself.
I'm not sure how you dismiss "good storytelling" as being wholly subjective and in the same breath assert that "a tool being used badly is bad writing." That strikes me as a wholly subjective opinion also and therefore as bad for illogic as you accuse my assertion of being.

That's the problem with the Coward's Castle of relativism in art and life:"Everything is subjective, so you can't judge whether anything is good or bad. Well, unless it's something I like/don't like, then it's everyone else that is wrong and not me."

And as for the suggestion that people have to agree on what good storytelling is before a judgment can be made, well, by definition a movie that tanks at the box office or is reviled widely by the fandom is a pretty good indicator that a lot of people agreed about whether the storytelling was good or not in that.