Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
Since we always assume that characters can be made playable (the whole point of the thread, after all), we can also assume that we can somehow reach Int and Cha of 3 or higher. I think I will go with LA +1*, where the star indicates create spawn ability and the whole issue surrounding the mental abilities.
please note 1 Cha is playable, nowhere in the rules are you barred from having 1 cha or wis.

Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
I don't disagree that it's possible for a template to get LA +0 or -0, but I think those are all very unusual circumstances, and I don't think necromental amounts to a similarly unusual circumstance. And I don't see this as a legitimately zero-sum template, so I think it has to have a positive LA. I'm voting LA +1* for the necromental template.
The main issue I am seeing is in other cases we have identified one or more spells or templates to get us up to 3+ int. Choosing not to include the spells/templates in the evaluation of the monster and simply handwaving it because they are there is quite different then not having any that could be used. In this case the only way to achieve 3+ Int seems to be having a magic item like headband of intelligence which adds it own set of problems. Specifically you need to be ECL 5-6 before WBL would allow you to afford the headband which puts you into large or larger elemental territory as your only way to achieve that is through RHD wand said elementals are already -0 creatures.

While Icy Necromental is an interesting build I don't know of any DM who would let a character into a ECL1 game with the WBL of a level 19-20 character, and in a ECL19-20 game Icy Necromental is so underpowered that you might as well leave the Necromental as an NPC and make a new character.

Even in the case that we are handwaving away the base 1 issue you are effectively taking -10 int (min 3 int) setting wis to 10 and cha to 1 (since neither of these effect playability) all non RHD HD are normal for your class without con mods. Undead immunities are nice but with everything being based around Cha and specifically having 1 cha you have the makings of a pretty horrid setup, getting fast healing and an ignorable bonus to AC isn't a bonus it is absolutely mandatory to try and make you somewhat less killable since you are forced into beatsticking and have lower hp than everything else you are being compared with. And Energy drain while helpful at once per round it isn't enough to make a difference much less design a build around. You are being forced into tier 5 classes with very little capability to do anything in or out of combat.

I am just not seeing where people are getting +1 out of this template it is a hot pile that makes you worse at everything, what path are you seeing that would make this competitive with any tier 3 build?