D&D Base Class Contest XV Chat Thread

[MrStabby]

Thoughts about the Manabound-

Overall-
Fluff: Very neat concept. Sorcerer, but on purpose.
Mechanical: Perhaps a bit too much overlap with the paladin which I expect would lead to unfavorable comparisons. I really like the hit dice interactions.

Hmm. A good point on the overlap. I envisaged a bit of a different playstyle with more of a focus on spells, but the chances are that the paladin feels like it is casting spells to most people when using lay on hands, detect good/evil, channel divinities and cleansing touch... so yeah - something to watch out for. My instinct would be to buff something the paladin doesn't have much skill in, but the Paladin just off the shelf is a nova damage dealing tank with some of the best support abilities in the game. The things left - AoE blasting and control kind of fall to the subclasses so their toes would be stepped on/be made redundant if I buffed it too much. Something nice to set it appart from the Paladin would be a good place to focus my attenton.

Specifics-
Name: I don't love it. I don't think that D&D ever uses the term "mana" in this way and IMO it doesn't fit well. Something like "Channeler" would work better. Yes, that's a very generic name, but that's kind of the point. This is a matter of taste, however.

It is a matter of taste... however I share yours on this. I was never particularly happy with the name but couldn't find anything I actually liked. I think it is worth revisiting. Actually, I really dislike the name as well. It was a placeholder that stuck due to my lack of inspiration.

Hit dice: I'm going to say this should be 1d10. The class seems built to be in melee and doesn't have much to enable skirmishing. And it's too MAD to have a decent investment in CON
Light Armor Proficiency: I'm not sure why they have this. Mana Surge makes a dex build pretty suboptimal and the Unarmored Defense feature makes it kind of moot anyway.
Tool proficiency: I don't have an objection to this per se, but I don't really understand what the justification for it is in terms of the lore of the class.

Poor version control on my part. Light armour was more a focus on a previous version and then got kind of replaced with unarmoured defence but not updated. Likewise the tool proficiency was from a previous draft - the idea grew out of the gravebound subclass and I like the idea of crafting a phylactery from the start and your little soul casket growing in power with you - then I liked the generalised idea of anything crafted, then thought it would be cool if you could store your essence in something more abstract like a song or piece of music... then pretty much just gave them a pick from a bundle of options and my poor version control caught up with me.

For the hit dice - I was on the fence and could have gone either way. I think you are right though. Conceptually I build the class round weaknesses - needing to cast spells to stay alive, more magic but at the cost of health, defence mainly through the magic. I think the weaknesses really... weakneded the class (as they should) but maybe left it a little low on these subtle passive boosts. I have been convinced it can be boosted.

Features-
Spellcasting: No major objections, except that the lack of access to spell foci will become annoying. Choosing cha as the casting stat is a very safe choice, but I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest that this might be the perfect class to be a con-based caster. It would settle several of my other objections and it would be different kind of thing than we've seen before.

Unarmored Defense: Compares favorably to other versions of the feature, except that the Manabound is already struggling to juggle its stats unlike the barbarian, and unlike the monk neither of the armor stats are an attack stat. Doubly problematic due to the 1d8 hit dice and lack of features that let you weave in and out of combat. I expect most manaborn would see a dip into a class with heavy armor proficiency as mandatory.

I think a Con based caster could work well, and it does fit the fluff well enough. I had avoided it at the start as it is a potentially very powerful casting stat, but I think the class could use a boost. With casting based on Con and moving unarmoured defence there and with the shift to a d10 hit die I think that a lot of the defence becomes more solid.

Also, I have an attachment to mental stats - I think they make for cool characters, but this might be a place to let that go!

Consume Self: I love it. It's multiclass bait, and so maybe should be pushed back some, but it's a really cool feature.

Mana Surge: This is a very cool feature, but I feel like it's extremely restrictive in terms of what spells they can use for this. For example, a gravebound has only cause fear as a viable option for this right up to 9th level. The arcane magus can't use this feature at all until 5th level. I know you're using this restriction to try to limit Ravnica/Eberron extra spells shenanigans, but I think you're better off giving the players more options, even if some options turn out stronger than intended, rather than locking up gameplay to a single viable spell for certain characters.

I saw consume self and one with magic as a closely tied pair of abilities. One takes away your healing for magical power, the other grants you healing from magical power to compensate somewhat. I had hoped to weaken the multiclass abuse potential by specifiying One with magic had to have the spells come from the binding list. In terms of the number of level 1 spells it gets you, you could get six level 1 spells per day (assuming two short rests) from a couple of levels of warlock. And given you only recover half your HD on a long rest you would need to be level 12 before this started breaking even on average over consecutive days. And it costs you your HP recovery.

Mana surge - yes its restrictive. This was where I had my worries about all the way to add other spells to the class spell list. For any class spell it was fine, but for any spell that could become a class spell or any multiclass spell it could be rough. I was thinking of spells like 8 hour hex. That said, maybe it isn't a problem. You sacrifice a lot by not shaking up what spells you are concentrating on.

I think I might relax this.


With regards to the spells per level that contribute, I didn't think it much of an issue as long as you had something... though I get that limited choices could feel very frustrating. I think that opening it up to the broader class list as well might be needed here. If nothing else magic weapon is a pretty OK, if unexciting spell that will tick the box.

One with Magic: I have an irrational dislike of d4s, so I'm likely not very objective on this, but I see no reason this shouldn't be a d6.

This may be an older version you have open. HP recovery is currently 2HP per spell level... I say currently as this is one of the areas I am looking to tune. Given a d10+con HD would probably be healing about 10 HP normally this is a steep loss; maybe 3+2 times spell level would be enough.

Seize the Threads: a lesser-wish kind of a deal? Seems okay. Did you mean "no material components" or "no costly material components"? Because if the spell can't have any material components at all that's a pretty major limitation on spell selection. I would actually probably rather see something more like "Magical Secrets" where they get a list-free spell pick, and maybe can replace it during a long rest or something, but I feel like a totally spontaneous spell pick would lead to a lot of book flipping mid-session for some players.

So I actually meant no material components at all. I am not really sure where I want to take this. I will meander a bit in my thinking.

To me, a class is cool for a number of reasons... fluff and mechanics and so on. There is also an element of what it can do as well as what it does do. A once per day ability that gives a bit of a higher level slot with massive flexability to me feels like it expands on what the class can do and therefore its feeling of awesomeness, whilst still (hopefully) curtailing somewhat what it actually does do and therefore not stepping on any other classes toes.

The feeling I was going for was a real direct, cosmological access to magic that lets you be limited only by your creativity... but I also feel it weakens the identity of the class (or subclass as I think most of the theme sits here) being so broad. And in practice I see it as a get out of jail card - your word of recall, your animate dead, your wall of force. I see this as a bit of a feature - if your healer is some combination of bard or divine soul or celestial warlock or spells known class in general, then they might not want to devote a known spell to raise dead given they intent to cast it as little as possible. Hopefully by being more valuable than a spell slot you ensure that anyone who does have any selected on their spell list will take precedence in casting it. I feel the comprable ability is actually probably the cleric's divine intervention.

I figured that you couldn't use material components as the spell was channeled through yourself rather than a spellcasting focus. I think this should be relaxed for two reasons. 1) I think the body of the character istelf should count as a spellcasting focus. 2) just think how much this will slow down play at the table: "spell X might get us out of this mess... let me look it up and see if I can cast it. Nope... what about spell Y?". Opening it up so it is easier to know, recall and find appropriate spells would be a good shift.

Maybe tying it to something you can change on a short rest would work... or maybe you pick three spells and can change these on a short rest, but it can be any of the chosen spells? Or change it alltogether?

Subclasses-
Gravebound: This looks good, but this is in no small part because it solves some of the issues I have with the base class. Spell selection is rough when it comes to spells viable for Mana Surge until 9th level, as noted above.

Faithbound: Spells have plenty of solid options for Mana Surge, so that's good. You solve the "Cure wounds is more valuable than a hit die" problem by giving them more things to do with hit dice, which is elegant. My favorite subclass.

Arboreal Guardian: Issues where at 3rd leave your only options for Mana Surge spells are spells that end when an enemy passes a save which compares poorly to the Faithbound's access to Bless. 5th level solves the problem though.

Arcane Magus: No Mana Surge spells available at all at 3rd level. Arcane disjunction is very cool. If you fix the Mana Surge issue this is my second favorite subclass.

Gravebound might need a tweak. It might need a few. Or not. I think that a lot of people, myself included, have a tendency to design for themselves - what they like. For me, I worry that this subclass is a bit passive. Lots of static abilities and buffs but not some much extra Oomph on the stuff they pro-acively do, even so far as a relatively weak spell list (3rd level spells are really the only exciting ones). But some people like this; some people play champion fighters and that is OK. Maybe I should have something that is a bit simpler to play.

But my temptation is to add something more on the cool thing to do list.



Faithbound - probably my favourite as well. Enough different abilities to never be useless, some clear strengths though and can do some unique stuff.

Arboreal Guardian - second favourite. Needs... something to deal with flyers though. Maybe earthbind on the spell list will be enough? I think the class needs a bit more diversity to it though - the spells are either poor, or they limit movement. Might be a bit one dimensional to play. Trying to not just duplicate the wizard list though. I think that some custom spells might be in order.

Arcane Magus - I find your comments here really interesting simply because they are so different to my own feelings. Not a matter of judgement, but of personal taste. This is my least favourite subclass. It felt a bit bland and generic arcane to me, missing out on a really clear theme - it was just... blasting. You liked Arcane Disjunction and thought it was cool - to me it was a needed ability to help keep some of the other spells flowing a bit longer and was about as sexy as a bigger fuel tank. Possibly a sign that I can broadly leave it be! I think I will let Mana Surge work on all spells on the spell list which puts Zephyr Strike as a viable level 1 spell (to zip round the battlefield hitting stuff with your raised strength).



Thanks for your input; a lot to change and a lot more to think about.