Testing Tiamat

[MaxWilson]

The purpose of this thread is to run a test of the Tiamat statblock to ascertain how weak it actually is, my personal stance is that it isn't a weak statblock at all, certainly not for the intended level.

The scenario:

To simplify this as much as possible instead of assumptions about a module no one has time to play out for this question, the following is used.

This challenge is for a party of 4 level 14 adventurers. Any content is allowed, the Optional class rules are in place from TCoE, but not the optional race rules.

Any summons of permanent duration are permitted for use from the start(FF, FS, Simulacrum etc.)

Any buffs of particularly long duration (e.g. Death Ward) may be assumed to be in use, buffs of one minute duration are to be cast in combat. 10 minute buffs may be precast.

This is a standalone scenario to test the Tiamat statblock individually, not test her efficacy in the module, as such no items or other context from the module is taken into consideration here.

Players start 60ft away from Tiamat

Tiamat starts fully summoned and under no weakening effects from the module

For simplicity we shall assume the classic featureless plane, the map is as big as needed to facilitate the encounter

The only win conditions are the death of the party or Discorporation/Banishment of Tiamat

Positioning will be tracked on a Roll20 grid.

The party may assume a +1 weapon each if desired to be representative of their level, however a hard mode is also available where no loot is assumed (as the rules of 5e do not assume loot in balancing).

Rulings clarifications:

Counterspell - Targets the creature casting not the spell itself, it must be upcast to affect Tiamat

Tenser's Transformation - The additional damage does not apply to Tiamt unless the spell is upcast, all other points work as written

Rest Tricks - defined as casting of a spell before a long rest ends in order to benefit from the spell without the resource expenditure e.g. stockpiling of Goodberries is not permitted. Regardless the RAW on this it is a DM call and there is no certaintiy the combat would happen within the spell expiration time.

Force Cage - I am using a size suggested by a 3rd party for Tiamat - 450ft x 150ft, she does not fit within Force Cage

Magic Jar - Due to the nature of the spell (in and out of character) this will be off the table as agreed with Eladriel below

Conjure spells - where the intent is for the DM to decided on the summoned creatures, the DM (in this case, myself) will choose the creatures that appear

Any needed clarification or previously discussed things that have not yet been added can be added into the post in a later date. This is in the interest in clarity and creating a true test of the stat block and is in no way intended to 'move the goalposts'


Any participating members please use your first post to fully detail each party member in a spoiler, one spoiler per party member. Roleplay things like specific deities, bonds, appearance are irrelevant for the test and so can be ignored. You may use standard array or Point Buy, please list your stats and the +1 item chosen by any characters.

Please include prepared/known spells for any casters and any choices that needed to be made in the process of character creation e.g. battle master maneuvers

Please try and record party resources (current hp, slots, portents etc.) as play progresses for easy tracking.

Once the party is detailed please roll initiative in the dice roll thread.

Dice thread.

Thanks for doing this.

At level 14 I think the strongest party still has to have at least one Fighter in it--Tiamat is vulnerable to archmages, making her a bad strategic threat from a narrative perspective, but her magic immunity does make things hard for lesser mages with fewer spell slots.

My BOTE says a Battlemaster 11/Forge Cleric 1/Rogue 2 Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Dex 20 human is an ideal Simulacrum template for fighting Tiamat. (Save Action Surge and maneuver dice until near the end, to finish her off.) Make yourself a Heavy Crossbow +1. Plan to finish each turn 150' to 250'ish from Tiamat. Take turns concentrating on Bless.

The other three PCs can be wizards (Diviner 13/Forge Cleric 1) or shepherd druid. Wizard has the simplest strategy: stay out of the fight using a Phantom Steed while your Simulacrum of the fighter (also on a Phantom Steed) does the fighting and the Wizard concentrates on Fly VI (fighter + three fighter Simulacra, although until a Fighters' Phantom Steed dies or Tiamat attempts to flee the Fighters will not reveal that they can in fact fly 120' per round), or Bless II, or if there's a third wizard Greater Invisibility for advantage. (Or cast Fog Cloud to grant advantage to all three Fighters, if the DM is running RAW on heavy obscurement--oddly, Tiamat has no blindsight, not even the standard draconic 120' blindsight.) If there's a Shepherd Druid instead of a third wizard he can send waves of conjured animals at Tiamat, depending on what the DM declares shows up.

That's my BOTE. Not sure if I want to roll it out in detail because it seems obvious that it will succeed, since Simulacrum is such a broken spell and RAW on unseen ranged attackers is so abusable, and Tiamat doesn't have any counterplay available. Even if the DM rules that "start at 60'" means the PCs start in Fireball Formation, Contingency (Dimension Door) or Scatter from the wizard with the highest initiative should solve the problem reasonably well--as long as at least three of the fighters survive round one and retain Fly, she's toast eventually--her regen rate can't keep up with the ~45 DPR that three Fighters will inflict, not even counting superiority dice and Action Surge and possible advantage from visual effects like Fog Cloud or Greater Invisibly.

Add in a few Planar Bound air elementals or whatever if you've got them just to constrain her movement and give her targets for her breath weapons and the illusion of progress.

DM rulings will affect the details of how the fight plays out, but I think they won't change the outcome: not more than five minutes after the fight starts, Tiamat dies. That doesn't make her a weak opponent for a level 14 party (clearly we are taking extraordinary measures to defeat her, and the party will feel they were challenged even if they win) but it still leaves her far weaker than Cthulhu or Gobogeg or Hastur, not strong enough to fulfill her place in the narrative as a threat great enough to unify everyone against her including liches and archmages.