Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)

[Ionathus]

Again, you're coming at this from the standpoint that objective morality is a thing that exists and can be measured. I understand in D&D it very much is, but I'd argue that it's one of the biggest flaws in D&D's design and a rather black and white and childish way to put the world together.

I am doing nothing of the sort. In fact, I agree with you when it comes to D&D morality.

Is the dragon "irredeemable evil" or is it a hungry superpredator that has the same biological need to eat that a human does and cares about as much that humans very much want to not be eaten as a human would that a cow very much does not want to be eaten. A goblin is a fictional monster no different than a dragon, it just happens to be smaller and roughly human shaped. Unless the indicated by the author of the specific universe, why would the automatic assumption that being roughly human-shaped makes a fictional monster the equivalent of a human. In the real world, gorillas, chimpanzees or any of the other great apes are bipedal, roughly human shaped, and even capable of learning and limited communication with humans, but we don't morally equate them with humans. The question shouldn't be "is this creature evil as defined by some sort of objective cosmic standard?" but "is this creature dangerous to me/my family/my community?" Being highly aggressive or territorial by nature or seeing humans as prey are enough for conflict to exist and there's no reason that traits that exist in real animals couldn't apply to fictional monsters. Whatever the author decides serves the plot best.

You're preaching to the choir. I agree that predators are not inherently evil. I agree that great apes are not human. But fantasy goblins, as typically presented, aren't like dragons or gorillas: they don't have drastic physiology differences, and they don't fill a different role in the ecology/food chain. They are slightly shorter, colored green/yellow, they speak a different language, and they worship a different god. They are quite simply "funny looking humans".

To give another example, one youtube channel I watch portrays goblins as mutated degenerate humans, the result of exposure to high levels of magical basically-radiation. Despite specifically being mutated humans, they're still aggressive opportunistic raiders who are individually weak, but always move and attack in large swarms. They have their own language, religion and even currency and are intelligent enough to communicate with humans - there's even an insane human scholar (who they do not realize is human due to his face being covered) living among them and they trade with bandits. They attack caravans and travelers, find torture entertaining and eat human flesh. Is this a cultural thing or is it just part of their nature as a result of the same mutation that made them what they are? Well, the channel doesn't elaborate on that and doesn't really have to. They goblins are a threat and in the end, that's what makes them relevant to the plot.

This sounds like a very compelling approach to the subject, but it essentially proves my point. In order to make these goblins an objective threat with no elaboration required, it has to mutate them with magical radiation. Regardless of this youtube channel's portrayal, you have to admit that goblins are not by and large portrayed with that degree of "difference."

As a final point, if an audience/group of players can't distinguish between fictional monsters and real people to the point that they "start to associate "irredeemable evil" with skin color or certain cultural behaviors" that speaks far more about them than the author/DM. It requires the same sort of backwards "logic" people have used to blame metal music or video games for real world violence and such claims have been proven wrong time and time again.

I've taken your other statements with a pretty light heart, and I hope my tone has been conversational and easygoing thus far. However, I'm going to come out very strongly against this point.

The things we say and write matter. Don't tell me propaganda doesn't affect the culture it pervades. Don't tell me that decades of sexist jokes haven't affected how men treat women, and how women treat themselves. Don't tell me that prejudiced attitudes can't fester and worsen when the people in power support (either intentionally or subconsciously) certain narratives while discouraging (either intentionally or subconsciously) others.

It's unfair to characterize this with the same brush as overreactions to heavy metal and video games. The things we say and write will almost never inspire someone to go out and Do A Murder. But they will inform our attitudes, our opinions, and whether or not we look at the person who's a different gender/race/culture and see a fellow human with differences or an Other to be (subconsciously) opposed, distrusted, exploited, or disregarded.