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    Ogre in the Playground
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    May 2011
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Yes, but the other examples you gave were not paladins. I was speaking generally, without regard to D&D or alignment rules or anything, there in pointing out that the answer would depend on the standards of the judging party. By many common interpretations the answer may likely be, "No, they are not evil," but different standards that rule, "Yes, this is still evil," are also possible.
    You are fixated on whether the people in question are evil and not whether they do evil. By the rules, you cannot have evil paladins. We all know this. But you can have paladins that do evil without falling and still remain good. This does not retroactively make their actions non-evil, nor does it mean they should Fall for their ignorance. It means good people (paladins included) can do evil and still be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    The other party is judging based on a subjective and incomplete picture of the situation.

    Is this person a villain?

    "Yes," according to the other party; "No," according to the cosmos.
    Why does it matter if the other party has an incomplete picture of the situation? Does being punched hurt less if the person who punched you did it by accident? Does it cause less harm?

    A villain who does evil is still a villain even if they are good-aligned. Being a genuinely good person does not erase the damage you cause.

    Also, the cosmos does not judge whether you are a villain or not. That is not a thing that exists. In-universe, people judge you a villain based on the evil you do, and out of universe, the author and the audience do the same.

    There is no such thing as "well, you may think this poor ignorant paladin a villain for defending the corrupt evil king, but as you can see here, the cosmos has signed a decree declaring him not-a-villain, sorry!"

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The Atonement spell suggests that an "unwitting evil act" can still need atonement-for.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm

    This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden.

    But "accidentally harming the innocent though your intentions were good and you took reasonable precautions" might not even qualify as an "unwitting evil act".
    Clerics and druids lack the "unwitting" part and also make use of the atonement spell, so we cannot say that part is meant for paladins.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-05-08 at 05:17 AM.