OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

That's on you.

I mean... yeah? Just like it's on you for wanting Serini to get punched in the face for having a reasonable point of view that opposes the Order? I don't have any problems with my own position.

And this is the key disconnect here thats going on i think. Some people can like a character for reasons unrelated to how likeable they are as a person. it's one of those common dissconnects that can take some discussion before it becomes obvious that it's the issue in play, and i think thats whats been happening here.

I do not get the "likeability" thing at all. What does that mean? Nice? Some of the worst things I've seen happen to stories (don't get me started on the later seasons of Parks and Recreation) were when they started buying into their characters being nice (even when they weren't) and thus deserved whatever they wanted, that they were more Special than everyone else in the story's universe.

In drama, different people have different moralities, and that leads them to different decisions, and those moralities and decisions conflict and escalate until they reach a conclusion. Right now, the Order's moral priority is "stop Xykon and enlist Redcloak to seal the Gates"; Serini's is "protect this Gate at all costs." They are coming into conflict. That's good drama to me.

But when several monsters like Serini one should think she is a totally likable person, not just character. One definetly shouldn't judge her by how she is talking to intruders while fighting them.

Ah, but those intruders are the Special People of the story, and therefore deserving of what they want.

Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard too? I must have missed that strip.

Are you trying to pretend Roy and V don't regularly insult their own teammates? Or that Roy isn't so arrogant he thinks he knows what's going on better than an actual Deva?

And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)

Oh my god, yes, exactly this. That was carthartic to read, thank you.

I find Serini's approach reasonable (the refusal to communicate with the Order has been covered to death already), and the "undeserved" attitude-- an Epic Rogue who built and has been for decades guarding what is now the last Gate upholding reality thinks she knows best how to maintain it is "undeserved"?-- really just seems like another way to say "uppity" to me.