View Single Post

Thread: Seeking Opinions on a Thief-Build

  1. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Sub-Prime Material Plane
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Seeking Opinions on a Thief-Build

    An update here: I was digging around for classes that benefit or circumvent the penalties for attacking opponents with total concealment. Lurk and Shadowblade, for example, offer some limited access towards ignoring concealment. Shadow Sun Ninja has an interesting ability "Darkness Within Light" that almost seems like it would help you ignore concealment against blinded enemies (but not quite). Still, looking at it made me realize an option we haven't really explored yet: traps!

    Spoiler: Combat Trapsmith (CS)
    Show
    Combat Trapping (Ex): You know how to create combat traps to aid your allies. At 1st level, you can learn two traps from the list below, provided you meet the prerequisites. At each level thereafter, you add one additional trap to your repertoire, to a maximum of six traps known. Whenever you attain a new level in this class, you can choose to replace any one previously learned trap with a new trap.


    Trap Name (Craft DC) Prerequisites Effect
    Befuddler 15 - —2 penalty on Concentration, Int-, Wis-, Cha-based checks
    Enfeebler 15 Craft (alchemy) 1 rank Fatigues target
    Entangler 17 Class level 2nd Entangles target
    Equalizer 17 Class level 2nd Target falls prone
    Flashbang 19 Craft (alchemy) 3 ranks, class level 3rd Blinds and deafens target
    Footspiker 15 - Halves target's speed
    Glitterburst 15 Craft (alchemy) 1 rank Makes invisible target visible
    Scorcher 15 Craft (alchemy) 1 rank Deals 2d6 fire damage
    Scorcher, great 23 Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, class level 5th Deals 5d6 fire damage in larger area
    Sleeper 21 Craft (alchemy) 4 ranks, class level 4th Target falls asleep
    Spiderweb 19 Craft (alchemy) 3 ranks, class level 3rd Web fills small area
    Stinkburst 21 Craft (alchemy) 4 ranks, class level 4th Stinking cloud fills trapped square

    A combat trap is triggered by any Tiny or larger creature entering the trapped square. Flying or incorporeal creatures don't trigger combat traps. You can build a combat trap only on solid ground – you can't place it on a wall orceiling, in the air, or floating in the water. A combat trap functions only once. Once set, it lasts for 1 hour or until triggered, whichever comes first.

    Crafting a combat trap requires a full-round action (which provokes attacks of opportunity) and a Craft (trapmaking) check. Each trap's entry lists the required Craft check DC. If the check is successful, you can place the trap in any square adjacent to your space. A failed check means that the action and materials are wasted to no effect, but you can try to set the same trap again later. Some combat traps allow a saving throw, as noted in a trap's entry. The save DC is 10 + your combat trapsmith level + your Int modifier. Locating or disabling a combat trap requires a successful Search or Disable Device check with a DC equal to 20 + your combat trapsmith level + your Int modifier. You can automatically find and disable your own combat traps. Because a combat trap is built quickly and crudely, it is also possible to discern with a successful Spot check (using the same DC as given above), whether or not the observer has the trapfinding class feature. All combat traps produce extraordinary effects, so dispel magic or spell resistance cannot interfere with them.

    Unless otherwise noted, an ongoing effect from a combat trap lasts for a number of rounds equal to your combattrapsmith level. Multiple effects from the same kind of combat trap don't stack; use only the longer duration. Creating combat traps requires a special kit containing raw materials and tools. A combat trapsmith's kit costs 100 gp, weighs 10 pounds, and provides components sufficient to create ten traps. A combat trap can't be cannibalized for raw materials, nor can its materials be retrieved if the trap isn't triggered.

    Spoiler: Combat Trap Descriptions
    Show
    Entering the trapped square produces the stated effect.

    Befuddler: A pungent spray applies a —2 penalty on Concentration checks, as well as ability checks and skill checks based on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (Will negates).

    Enfeebler: A puff of acrid powder renders the target fatigued (Fortitude negates).

    Entangler: A hidden cord loops around the target, holding it in place as a tanglefoot bag does. A successful Reflex save negates the effect; alternatively, a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check (made as a full-round action) allows the stuck creature to break free.

    Equalizer: The first creature entering the trapped square must succeed on a Reflex save or fall prone. The trap reputedly gets its name from its gnome inventor, who used it to bring taller foes down to his level.

    Flashbang: The trapped square emits a blinding burst of light accompanied by a loud thunderclap. Any creature in the trapped square or any adjacent square becomes blinded and deafened; a successful Fortitude save lessens the effect to dazzled.

    Footspiker: This trap effectively fills the designated square with caltrops, potentially slowing the target's movement (PH 126).

    Glitterburst: A fine cloud of silver dust clings to any creature within the trapped square (no save). Any creature affected by a glitterburst trap takes a —20 penalty on Hide checks and, if invisible, is visibly outlined for the duration of the effect.

    Scorcher: The trapped square releases a cloud of fine dust followed by a spark, setting off a small explosion that deals 2d6 points of fire damage to each creature in that square (Reflex half).

    Scorcher, Great: This works like a scorcher trap (see above), except that it deals 5d6 points of fire damage to each creature in the trapped square and in all adjacent squares (Reflex half).

    Sleeper: A slumber-inducing vapor makes the target fall asleep. A successful Fortitude save lessens the effect to fatigued.

    Spiderweb: The trapped square releases a burst of sticky tendrils that toughen when they contact air. This trap duplicates the effect of a web spell, except that the strands fill only the trapped square and all adjacent squares.

    Stinkburst: A cloud of noxious vapors duplicates the effect of a stinking cloud spell, except that the effect fills only the trapped square. A successful Fortitude save negates the effect, but a creature must make a new saving throw each round it remains within the cloud.


    Spoiler: Trapsmith (Dungeonscape)
    Show
    Booby Traps (Ex): You can quickly set up simple booby traps (see the sidebar) to harm and hinder your foes. When setting up a trap, make a Craft (trapmaking) check. The check result is the Difficulty Class of an attempt to find the trap by making a Search check. Half the check result is the DC of an attempt to disarm the trap by making a Disable Device check. The check result affects other variables, too; see the Booby Trap sidebar below for details. Setting up a booby trap is usually a full-round action, though some take longer, as noted in the sidebar.

    Starting at 3rd level, your skill improves such that you can create advanced versions of the simple booby traps you already know.

    Spoiler: Booby Traps
    Show
    A trapsmith can create a number of different traps to hinder and harm foes. Each trap described below includes information on its area, effects, base cost, and cost per use. The base cost covers the parts of the trap that are reusable if recovered. The cost per use covers the pieces that are destroyed or expended when the trap is set off. All traps below are mechanical traps with a touch trigger.

    A trapsmith can disable and disassemble one of his own traps without making a check. This process takes approximately 1 minute.

    Other booby traps are possible with your DM's approval.

    Alarm Trap: This trap is little more than a series of bells attached to a thin trip wire. When the wire is breached, the bells ring, and those nearby can attempt a DC —5 Listen check to notice the noise. This trap takes 1 round to set up per 10 feet of trip wire used. Anyone who runs into the trap can attempt a Reflex save to avoid setting it off (DC equal to 1/2 your Craft [trapmaking] check result).

    Base Cost: 1 gp/10 ft.

    Cost/Use: —.

    Advanced Version: The DC of the Reflex save to avoid setting off an advanced alarm trap is equal to your Craft (trapmaking) check result.

    Bolt Trap: This trap fires a light or heavy crossbow at one target that breaks a trip wire. The crossbow makes a single attack with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Craft (trapmaking) check result. The bolt deals standard damage for its type, but you can use masterwork or magic crossbows and bolts to enhance the accuracy or damage. The trap must be reset after the crossbow fires. The trap can cover a line of up to 20 feet.

    Base Cost: 35 gp (light crossbow) or 50 gp (heavy crossbow); add 300 gp for a masterwork crossbow.

    Cost/Use: None, or the cost of the ammunition if it is masterwork or magic.

    Advanced Version: An advanced bolt trap fires up to three bolts from three separate crossbows. Setting up an advanced trap takes 2 rounds and requires three crossbows (tripling the base cost as appropriate to the type).

    Drop Trap: A heavy or dangerous item is rigged to fall on anyone who crosses a trip line. When the trip line is breached, the item drops, making a touch attack with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Craft (trapmaking) check result. You can rig an alchemical item (which deals damage appropriate to the item) or a heavy object such as a stone (which deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage). The trap can cover a single 5-foot-square area.

    Base Cost: 1 sp.

    Cost/Use: Varies depending upon the cost of the dropped
    item.

    Advanced Version: An advanced drop trap can drop up to three alchemical items, a very heavy object (which deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage), or a net (which entangles the target, who can move freely but must make a successful DC 20 Escape Artist check to get out of the net).

    Trip Rope Trap: This trap is made up of a strong rope attached tautly between two points. If anyone tries to cross the rope, it makes a trip attempt with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Craft (trapmaking) check result. The first creature to cross through the trap causes the rope to go slack, and it must be reset before the trap can be used again. The trap can cover a line of up to 20 feet.

    Base Cost: 10 gp.

    Cost/Use: —.

    Advanced Version: An advanced trip rope trap makes the trip attempt using your Craft (trapmaking) check result for the opposed check. In addition, if the check succeeds, the trap can trip another creature that crosses through its space.


    First (and not relevant for a specific build, but still appreciable) is that all of the traps are ex (and the Combat Trapsmith class is entirely ex), so this is viable for the previous challenge.

    More notably, the traps only take 1 or 2 rounds to set-up, giving them in-combat utility.

    If we use Ghostly Grasp to make traps on the ground from underneath the floor, we should be able to take advantage of the cover our incorporeality affords us to avoid attacks of opportunity. The stealth the ground affords us should also allow us to capitalize on the hidden nature of traps to litter the battlefield without alerting enemies immediately.

    This means we should have access to a number of effects normally restricted to spells (and some damage-dealing routines) without leaving the safety of the underground.

    Lastly, this also allows us to lean into the trap finder/disabler archetype you were suggesting, Anthro. I'll have to think about how to fit all this in effectively. Thankfully neither of these classes have feat prerequisites, but their addition does make us a little MAD (as we need Cha for Ghostly Grasp, Dex for Master Pickpocket, and now Int for skills and Combat Trapsmith DCs. I suppose we could take two extra levels in Marshal to make us a little less MAD (i.e. we get Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Intelligence); alternatively, we could use Factotum 3 to get Int to Dex, and just write off the 15 cha as a loss in stat-generation. Factotum 3 is probably more efficient, to be fair... Maybe something like this would be workable:

    1 Half-Elf Paragon (Aereni Focus: Sleight of Hand, Ghostly Grasp)
    2 Human Paragon
    3 Human Paragon (SF: Listen, Keen-Eared Scout)
    4 Factotum
    5 Factotum
    6 Factotum (Master Pickpocket)
    [We now have a minimum 24 roll with no AOO on SoH to steal an item]

    7 Trapsmith
    8 Trapsmith
    9 Trapsmith (SF: Sleight of Hand)
    [We now have an automatic 30 on our SoH check]

    10 Trapsmith
    11-20 Exemplar
    W.r.t. a purely mundane build, Quick Draw with serrenwood arrows and the Iaijutsu Master build is almost certainly the ideal way to do damage, as incorporeality grants you a surprise round 99% of the time, and hiding while underground grants you one IF trigger/round. An alternative build might involve Combat Trapsmith to rely on Scorcher for damage, but has few efficient options to attack enemies with fire resistance or immunity.

    I like the above for a magic-using build however. If we are willing to rely on specific items (or, in this case, magical locations), we could buy access to the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will and take Hardened Criminal at level 3; that allows us to go human instead of half-elf, and gives us an automatic 30 at level 6 instead of 9. This avoids alignment restrictions, and the theft-angle is actually relevant to the trap-crafting (as the stolen goods can fund the trap materials). I may want to do a full write-up on this soon...
    Last edited by Doctor Despair; 2021-11-24 at 01:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
    Know-It-All
    Long Arm of the Law
    Phantom of the Opera
    Arthropods, the Bane of Giants
    Horselord
    Mother Cyst of Invention
    Rule #15: a hero is only as good as his weapon!
    Master of Disguise