Definition of Some Terms

[Cheesegear]

If everyone is using the string "Agency" to reference concept ABC and you want to interject by using the same word to reference concept XYZ, then you are setting yourself up to have continuous problems.

If everyone is using 'Agency' to reference something it doesn't mean, yes, there will be problems.

It is also possible your problems result from ignoring why those caveats are included in the normal usage of Agency in these discussions. Why is the "meaningful choice" caveat included to exclude the "meaningless choice" antonym? Why is the "significantly different outcomes" caveat included to exclude the "insignificantly different outcomes" antonym? Reflecting on those questions might help your "continuous problems".

Perfect.

Agency is where your actions produce an effect. Stop. No caveats. That is the definition of the word. If you want to change that definition, you need to be more specific. But now I'm going to work the definition of agency with peoples' concept of agency:

Players can take any action they want. Those actions will produce an effect. Some of the things they do might still produce the same effect(s) as if they had done something else. But that isn't what agency means. Sometimes what they do will have an effect...That doesn't affect the game world. That doesn't matter, that's not what agency is. How much effect do you want? Are you getting the amount of effect you want? ...That's not what agency is.

However, people seem to be inserting words into what agency means. In order to create some sort of value to agency; High Agency, and Low Agency.

Players can take 'meaningful' actions, which produce 'significant' effects.

Okay. If I understand that correctly, then when a PC punches a single NPC, the town should burn down. A PC punching an NPC must be meaningful and significant, or the PC has 'low' agency.

Your objection is pointless. A meaningful choice is one between two mutually exclusive game states.

Sure. But that's not what agency is.

'Agency is where I get to choose to between at least two mutually exclusive game states.' ...Is not the definition of agency, that's you adding value to agency.

A significant outcome is one that keeps influencing game choices well into the future.

'Agency is where my choices ripple through time.' ...Is not the definition of agency.

Those things might be how you want to use your agency, but those are not definitions of agency, that's you adding a value to your agency.

Most damningly, your extended rant about how every player action should have an effect reduces to the same thing.

That is what agency is. That is how people use it. That isn't how this forum seems to use it. But that's how it is used.

As for the kind and magnitude of choices?

Correct. That's a great word.

People are assigning a magnitude to agency. Which agency, in and of itself, doesn't have. But, when people seem to apply magnitude to agency, they appear to be more concerned not with the amount of actions they can take...But the magnitude of the effects that their actions produce.

Definition: Agency is where your actions produce an effect.
Player: ...Cool. I want the effects to be massive, alter the game state, and significantly impact future choices.
DM: Punch an NPC, town burns down. Got it.
Player: Noooo...You're doing it wrong...

Whenever discussing terms, I think it's more useful to ask 'what do we want to use this term for?'

Great. I'm going to go to a different forum, another Discord group of DMs, and we're going to talk about agency, and we're going to talk about realistic outcomes for certain choices our players make, and whether or not we made the right call.

I'm going to come here, and talk about agency, and we're going to throw in words like 'significant' and 'meaningful' and we're going to assign a magnitude (great word, I love it) to agency, and we're going to argue that an action producing a low-stakes effect 'doesn't count' as agency because it's magnitude is low...The effect wasn't significant or meaningful, therefore it doesn't count as agency. Even though that's not what the word - agency - means.

Like, if one person wants to use 'soap' to mean cleaning products and another wants to use 'soap' to mean the specific class of chemical mixtures, they disagree and maybe a dictionary would fall on one person's side or the other's, but saying 'person 2 is right' doesn't actually resolve the reason why person 1 wanted a term that did what 'soap' was doing for them.

They need to have a discussion so that they get on the same page. In the real world, an agreement on terms takes about 30 seconds (regardless of what internet debate bros would have you believe). Possibly less. Especially it comes to physical objects; I point at an object, and I say 'That is what I mean.', and it doesn't matter what words I use (I might not even be speaking the same language), because we at least both agree on the object in question.

I'm happy if you assign value to agency. But people are seeming to say that only a High Amount of Agency, is Agency, and when they are referring to a 'High Amount' of agency, they are referring to the magnitude of the effects they produce.

'Agency is when the magnitude of the effects I produce, is high.'

...Hmm...No. But I see what you mean; You want the magnitude of the effects you produce, to be high.