Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
The Minotaur is probably a poor comparison
I respectfully disagree. Almost everything a minotaur has, tarresques have but better.

Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits.
  • +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
  • Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
  • Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
  • A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
  • Darkvision out to 60 feet.
  • Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
  • Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.
  • Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
  • Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
  • +5 natural armor bonus.
  • Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
  • Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
  • Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
  • Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
  • Favored Class: Barbarian.
Tarresque characters possess the following racial traits.
  • +12 Str, +14 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
  • Medium size and Powerful Build
  • Base land speed is 60 feet.
  • Darkvision out to 60 feet, Tremorsense out to 60 feet.
  • Racial Hit Dice: A Tarresque begins with six levels of Magical Beast, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +2.
  • Racial Skills: A Tarresque’s Magical Beast levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. Tarresques have a +8 racial bonus on Jump, Hide, Intimidate, and Spot checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Search and Listen checks.
  • Racial Feats: A Tarresque Magical Beast levels give it three feats.
  • Weapon Proficiency: A Tarresque is proficient with all simple weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
  • +4 natural armor bonus.
  • Natural Weapons: Gore (3d6) and Unarmed Strike (2d6) and Bite (2d6) and 4 Claws (1d8) and Sting (1d8 plus Poison.
  • Special Attacks (see above): Improved Grab, Constrict, Poison, Earthbind.
  • Special Qualities (see above): Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60', Scent, DR 5/Magic and Silver, Regeneration 1, AC Bonus, Paragon of Nature, Love of Nature, Powerful Build, Multiple Limbs, Favored Enemy, Poison Use, Social Intuition, Speak with Beasts(Su), Immunity to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, exhaustion, pushback, stunning, critical hits, and mind-affecting, Resistance to Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5, Wild Empathy, Low Maintenance
  • Automatic Languages: Common, Terran. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan, Underdark.
  • Favored Class: Ranger
  • Level adjustment +2
Everything bolded is significantly better, everything bolded and green is worse, sometimes only slightly worse.

But, "Paragon of Nature" is compensated for. -2 to manufactured weapons is a penalty, yes, but they also have +4 more Strength which cancels out the hit penalty entirely. Or +2 Dex which halves the issue with ranged weapons. -1 hp/die would be a problem if they didn't have a whopping +10 more Con. It doesn't have Powerful Charge, but considering its Gore is already 3d6+its higher Str, that's not much of a downside after the first round of combat. And I was wrong before, it can use Large weapons, or just Multiattack seven times per round, including five free Grapple checks and Con poison.

And then, of course, there's a laundry list of resistances and immunities. Cold, fire, and lightning covers a fair amount of incoming magic damage. DR 5/magic AND silver is even stronger. Then it's immune to critical hits, diseases, stuns, and mind-affecting (which covers a lot). And poison is one of the most common sources of nonphysical damage type in the Monster Manual, against which these guys are immune. By contrast, the minotaur is immune to flat-footed...and that's it.

The tarresque is actually pretty similar to Troll, LA plus five, if you look at their stats and abilities. Troll has +12 Str +12 Con +4 Dex -4 Int -2 Wis -4 Cha, so while they have +2 Dex over yours, yours have +2 Con, and Int, and Cha, and +4 Wis over them. The "six levels of giant" are about the same as magical beast, and yes a troll regenerates faster than the terresque, its natural weapons are worse, its AC is worse in light/no armor, and trolls can be mind-affected, poisoned, and don't have any resistances. They do get martial weapons, I guess.

Also, tarresques can outrun horses.

While I didn't know about that Playground LA discussion thread before, it's still worth noting that, even following what it said about minotaurs, LA +2 still seems low here. Their stats, offense, and defense are just that solid. LA should be balanced around the creature's strong points, not its weak points. Minotaurs might make lousy wizards and clerics, but that's not a reason to lower their LA when almost nobody's going to do that. LA should be based on where a race is strongest -- such as a minotaur barbarian, whose +8 Str is effectively a permanent Rage -- to keep minmaxers from becoming overpowered.

For what it's worth, the race itself seems like a lot of fun (well, Social Intuition seems a touch out of place for a -Int -Cha Paragon of Nature) and the Racial Traits at +0 don't seem like a real problem (well, maybe four arms). I just don't think the LA +2 is sufficient for the significant offense, defense, senses and stats they get. Sorry.