3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

[Ripptor]

I respectfully disagree. Almost everything a minotaur has, tarresques have but better.

Yes, but again a Minotaur is a Tier 4 race at LA 0, and at best a low Tier 4 with LA+2. This complaint is akin to sating that Warblade is better than Fighter.

True? Yes. But that's a problem with the Minotuar (and Fighter) being weak, not the Tier 3 Warblade being 'unbalanced'. Again, a Minotaur is a CR4 Encounter while the Tarresque is CR6, meaning that one Tarresque should be equivalent to two Minotaurs, including the doubled action economy. By the numbers, it's just not a good comparison.

Also, tarresques can outrun horses.

While this is funny, most Level 6 Monks can an outrun a Horse, and can easily pace the Terrasque above. I wouldn't worry about Monk breaking anything anytime soon, though!

While I didn't know about that Playground LA discussion thread before, it's still worth noting that, even following what it said about minotaurs, LA +2 still seems low here. Their stats, offense, and defense are just that solid. LA should be balanced around the creature's strong points, not its weak points. Minotaurs might make lousy wizards and clerics, but that's not a reason to lower their LA when almost nobody's going to do that. LA should be based on where a race is strongest -- such as a minotaur barbarian, whose +8 Str is effectively a permanent Rage -- to keep minmaxers from becoming overpowered.

If you read the conversation I linked above, they do balance it around what the Race would be good at, so I wouldn't be looking down on that group too much. A Minotuar at 6HD, LA2 is weaker than Dungeoncrasher Fighter 8 at Charging, which IS the one thing it is supposed to do well. When a Race is being outshined by a Tier 5 class, maybe it's not balanced correctly?

For what it's worth, the race itself seems like a lot of fun (well, Social Intuition seems a touch out of place for a -Int -Cha Paragon of Nature) and the Racial Traits at +0 don't seem like a real problem (well, maybe four arms). I just don't think the LA +2 is sufficient for the significant offense, defense, senses and stats they get. Sorry.

No offense taken, I'm happy for the review! I think we just play at different levels if a Minotaur, Fighter, and Barbarian are what you are balancing against. These are all Tier 4-5 (good at one thing, and generally outshined at even that) and I am aiming for Tier 3, building from a Monk(5)/Totemist(3) with some Templates attached.

Hey, Ripptor! Long time, no see.

Hey Friend!! May we walk the path of many dead games together, in the hopes of finding some that live.

This doesn't look right. DEX should be +1 and the Monk-style WIS to AC is untyped, rather than dodge (not to mention that dodge bonuses to AC are lost when a creature is flat-footed). Am I missing something here?

Fixed! Still had the DEX of the PC she was downgraded from in there, thank you!

10 bonus feats is a lot. It's clunky, even by 3.5 standards. I'd recommend ditching the five INAtts (there's no fast rule for how much damage a natural attack can deal, after all) and IUS, giving the thing, say, a slam attack instead of the unarmed strike.

It's also missing a regular feat.

You're right, we can just drop the INAtts to streamline as-is. IUS is from the Monk level, and makes her more "human", so I like having that in there as a flavorful oddity. I could just take the "Unarmed Strike" block from Monk instead?

Added Diehard as the missing level feat, since that's always fun with Regeneration.

Quick question: how does that even work? A Half-Minotaur Lesser tiefling is a humanoid and not even entomanthrope actually changes that; as such it cannot have the dungeonbred template by RAW.

We did ignore the type requirement on Dungeonbred in order to "nerf" her down to Medium size, to make her more Human-like. Adding that template moves her from Large to Medium, losing 4 Strength, 2 Natural Armor, 10' Reach, and the Size bonus on her grapples/trips/etc. She gains +2 Dex, Endurance, and +2 vs Poison/Disease (overwritten by Immunity) and Low Maintenance for half food/water. All-in-all an LA0 downgrade that fits with the flavor of a mage-grown controllable Tarresque race.

It's easy to take off, but it would make her stronger: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +0 Con, +2 Natural Armor, 10' Reach and +4 Size bonuses to Grapple/Trip/Intimidate/etc. Remove Low Maintenance and Endurance[B].

Let's take a look at trolls, a CR 5, 6 HD Large monster with regeneration and natural attacks.

As we've all brought up Trolls as a benchmark, lets do look at it then! There's a multi-page discussion on the Playground about the balance of Trolls here, discussing them being a Tier 4 melee bruiser belonging at LA +0.

CR5 means a Tarresque is worth about 1.5 Trolls vs a PCs, which seems accurate enough to me. CR6 Means a "Very Difficult" challenge for four Level 6 PCs, which seems appropriate here. Take a party that can kill a Troll, then give them each 1 level and 16,000 gold and have them kill a Terrasque.

CR Calculation	#
NPC with 5 Class Levels	5
NPC without WBL	-1 or -2
WereScorpion	+2 (+1 by RLA)
Half-Minotaur	+1
Total	5, 6, or 7

CR 5 == 1 Troll, which is too low.
CR 6 == 1.5 Trolls, which feels right to me. Average value of the above calculation.
CR 7 == 2 Trolls, which is probably overboard with the Action economy difference. But Maybe?
CR 8 == 3 Trolls, with triple the action economy and 15x the Regeneration.
CR 9 == 4 Trolls.

Is there a class that could turn the troll into something as strong at this in a mere two levels? I highly doubt it.

Now, on ECL this sounds like a build challenge!

Lets go for a ... Troll Totemist 2. As a PC you can pick your own Feats, Flaws and Traits, so we'll pick the same Flaws and Traits as Above (Quick, Aggressive)

Level 1: Tireless, Fearless, Martial Study(Wolf Fang)
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 6: Leap Attack

Shape Pauldrons of Health and Shedu Crown, Totem Bind the Landshark Boots with 2 Essentia.

40' Speed, Immune to Disease, Sickening, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Fear, Pushback.

Move + Attack: Four +2 Claws (1d6+9), and Two Rends(2d6+12) for a total of 8d6+60 Dmg.
Wolf Fang Strike: Two +2 Claws (1d6+9) and Rend(2d6+12) for a total of 4d6+30 Dmg.

And that's before any Pounce + Leap Attack bonuses for going Pogo-Troll with a +19 Jump (plus any Jump ranks). If that's off the table, then spend the two feats doing any of a number of other things. Gain Fire Resistance, or DR, swift action movement, or faster movement.

So, an ECL8 Troll Totemist would outdamage the Tarresque and outheal the Tarresque, while maneuvering around the battlefield and "pouncing" with a 10' reach, with 7/9 Immunities. It does end up just being a beatstick + tank, but that's Tier 4 for you!

WotC LAs are stupid for sure, we are in agreement there, but RLA is essentially a homebrewn alternative system. Most homebrewers who assign RLA to their monsters list it separately from the WotC-style one

That's an interesting thought, but it's a lot easier to balance these for actual use rather than try to find ways that WotC would muck it up make it unusable. I'd assume the idea would be to print these as balanced options, not intentionally unbalanced in the hopes that everyone Homebrews your Homebrew into balance on their own?

Otherwise we could slap an LA +5 on here to make this race a terrible ECL 11 option, with a disclaimer that it's idiotic and should *actually* be RLA +2 ?