3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

[Ripptor]

Alright, updated to Version 1.1 as follows:

• Removing Weapon Finesse and Endurance
• Unarmed Strike as Monk (Implies IUS bonus feat)
• Skill Bonuses aligned to +8, added +Skill per level
• LA as +3 (RLA as +2)

Also added in the Tome of Battle variant, and the Racial Class variant for those that want to play with those options, and the original PC build this was based off of in the Balancing Act section for reference!

Alright. I went over the feat list again. First of all, yes, this has a lot of SQs already, but I'd find Unarmed Strike more elegant than IUS^B. But I can see grounds for further pruning as well: Weapon Finesse^B on a creature with STR 24 and DEX 13 doesn't make much sense and does less. I'd say drop it, alongside Endurance^B which your tarrasque absolutely doesn't need with that CON score. Plug in Diehard as a bonus feat in its place (because it fits quite well), keep Track^B (because Scent) and (if you want bonus points for elegance), maybe make Iron Will a regular feat.
At that point, it'd have two racial bonus feats (which is fairly normal) that synergize well with its abilities.

Agreed, she can drop Weapon Finesse and Endurance to think things up a bit. Decided to keep Iron Will though, to maintain the number balance and keep one of the two "filler" feats for Prerequisites. Downgrade.

Also removed the explicit calling out of IUS as a bonus feat to rely on the Unarmed Strike block to state it (as Monk).

That leaves us with two of the most common racial feats: Track and Iron Will, which is nice and neat!

Ah, I see. Poweful Build offsets the loss of size bonuses and (given that the size penalties are gone), it basically negates the loss of NA and mitigates the -2 to hit and to damage due to strenth loss, though.

There's a built more of a net-negative numerical ripple effect going on than it may at first seem

A Dungeonbred monster loses 4 Strength (Str -8 from Large to Medium, Str +4 to compensate), and loses the -1 size penalty to hit, so they net -1 Attack and -2 Damage per attack. That applies to all 7 Natural attacks, which Powerful Build has no effect on.

Powerful Build could allow a character to use a larger manufactured weapon at -1 Attack and a higher damage dice. Most weapons average a +2 damage increase by size, so the net effect is identical damage, at -1 Attack (and -2 for being a Manufactured Weapon).

Of course, all Natural and Manufactured weapons still go from 10' Reach (Large) to 5' Reach (Medium), losing 60% or their threatened area.

Where it hurts her the most is in Grappling. A Large creature with a +6 Grapple Bonus and +8 Strength has a +14 modifier from these. Losing +6 Grapple and +4 Strength drops that down to a mere +6 bonus, dropping her success rate by 40%.

So the total net effect:

• Losing 60% of Reach
• -7 Attack and -14 Damage across Natural Weapons
• -1 Attack for all Large weapons with the same damage
• -1 Attack and -2 Damage for all Medium weapons
• -8 to Grapple checks, as a Grappler type (Imp. Grab, Constrict)

In return, Dungeonbred provides:

• Endurance as a bonus feat (Now Removed)
• +2 vs Disease/Poison (Already Immune)
• +1 Dex AC (and -1 Natural Armor AC)
• +1 to Dex checks and skills (and -2 to all Strength checks and skills)
• Low Maintenance (Half food/water)

As a Strength-based Grappler, Dungeonbred is quite nearly a strict downgrade for this race across the board. I'm hard-pressed to think of any optimiser would trade Reach, +4 Strength, and +8 Grapple for +2 Dex and half-food consumption.

But this isn't an optimization challenge, Dungeonbread just fit the whole "Breed them but smaller" flavor of a human-sized Tarrasque that doesn't consume everything in it's wake

I like flaws (and traits can be fun), but that's an optional rule and as such, it shouldn't figure into starting ECL. Or, if it does, we'll have to make the same assumption for the tarrasque as well.

I knew this would be easy to miss, so I put it at the top of all the lists, but the first ability a Tarresque has is Paragon of Nature,

Paragon of Nature (Ex) A Tarresque is a pure predator forced into a human form, with some drawbacks. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Initiative, a -2 penalty to attacks with manufactured weapons, and subtract 1 from their hit points gained at each level. A Tarresque may not have any other Flaws or Traits beyond these already incorporated. (DM Discretion: Two flaws, feats, and traits are included in this Race, which is the usual limit. Games may feel free to bypass this limit as desired.)

So the Flaws and Traits actually ARE assumed for the Tarresque, and are forced as Aggressive, Quick, Bestial Instinct, and Love of Nature. I just gave the Troll Totemist the exact same ones as the Tarresque already had.

Sometimes I need reminders that we're talking about the game where the fastest way to get Improved Evasion and DR/– is taking a dip in Commoner (sometimes I also need reminders that meldshaping exists, but I digress). 3.5 being 3.5 cuts both ways, though. If you can optimise the one-trick troll into relevance with such ease, it means that the better baked-in capabilities of a stronger race make a basis that much better for optimising the stronger race.

Well, I just used half of what's already in the Tarresque above! I added in a table with the how-to-build of the base Monk/Totemist/Warshaper for an easier comparison.

As for the Troll Totemist, it has two more levels to play with, so you actually can't add the same amount on top of one as the other. The "Stronger Race" here just has those two levels of Totemist baked in (Four +2 Claws, +6 Grapple, +6 Climb, Immune to Disease, Poisoning, Sickening, Nausea, Pushback, Wild Empathy). You can;t really "optimise" the Tarresque the same way, since adding Immunities again, or gaining a Bite when you already have one, doesn't actually do anything (And it already uses up those two HD levels).

CR 6 is way too low. The 1.5 troll comparison merely underscores that for me. I'll continue to hold that 8 would be more realistic, but I could settle for 7, I suppose.

This I'm gonna hold out on for now... CR 6 is two Bugbear Vampires (Drakthar's Way), or just looking at the top of the alphabet: Assassin Jelly, Black Recluse, Blood Elemental. All 3 have multiple immunities (poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorphing, sonic, mind-affecting, critical hits, illusions, stunning, flanking, all verbal spells...), their poisons cause paralysis or drowning/nausea to lock down PCs, with powerful spell-like abilities (Invisibility, Cause Insanity) and comparable DCs at 17-18.

At CR 7 we have the Argent Spider (Huge): Immune to Mind-Affecting, 1d8 Con Poison DC 20, with at-will free action teleportation and a +27 Grapple check. One of these could teleport in, Bite grapple a PC for 20 damage and 1d8 Con and drag them away 40' in a single round, before run/teleporting around with their hapless prey. An Argent Spider would solo or escape the Tarresque here:

Spoiler: Just like the Simulations!

Show

The Spider is faster than the Tarresque (40' Move plus a free 30' Teleport per turn vs only 60') so it gets to decide whether to Chase or Escape, assuming it can't be grappled or incapacitated. The Spider outgrapples her (+27 vs +17) to slip grapples 80% of the time, and can teleport out when it fails as a free action.

A Tarresque's attacks would miss 50% of the time due to Love of Nature (+4 vs DC 15), then miss another 55% of the time due to the spider's AC (+13 vs AC 25), averaging to-hit 25% of the time, or once every 4 rounds. The Spider can continuously kite her (Move/Attack/Teleport), avoiding Full Attacks while dealing damage 100% of the time (+17 vs AC 18) for an average of 12 damage after DR but ignoring Poison.

This gives the Tarresque 5-6 rounds before it falls unconscious due to damage, at which point it will be eaten and die to the Acid in the monster's stomach. In this time the Tarresque will average 1.5 successful attacks (Move+Attack), assuming Gore (~20 dmg) for 20 or 40 dmg to the Spider's 104 HP. On average the Tarresque will die after hitting the spider once or twice.

In order to "win", a Tarresque would have to either:
(0.09% Chance) Land 4 attacks (0.30%) while rolling near-max (26+, 2.75%)
(0.05% Chance) Land 5 attacks (0.09%) while rolling over-avg (21+, 50%)
(0.02% Chance) Land 6 attacks (0.03%) while rolling okay-ish (18+, 75%)

For a combined 00.16% Chance (a sixth of one percent), about 1/600 odds to kill the Spider.

Survival odds are higher, if we assume the Spider is willing to escape if things get dicey, lets say four hits landing (0.30%), which give 1/300 odds that the Tarresque "scares" the Spider off without either of them dying. A more careful Spider might leave early, instead at 3 hits landing (1.55%), for an average of 0.9% of the time (Assuming half Careful, half Daring).

Final Odds, then:
99.0% - Spider Feasts
00.9% - Spider leaves hungry
00.1% - Tarresque wins

This is despite the Tarresque having relevant DR (soaking up 30 Dmg) and being immune to it's 1d8 Con poison, which is the Spider's usual hunting advantage. Love of Nature is a disadvantage, but even taking that away only doubles the Tarrasque's Survival rate from 1% to 2%, still far from an even fight where only 0.33% is the Tarresque truly "winning" and killing the Spider.

I may have to look further than the first CR 7 "A" encounter that isn't all about Spellcasting, but I'll keep her at CR 6 for now.

Well, yes, but I'm yet to see a game anywhere that uses RLA. Gestalt happens a lot in these parts and I've seen free LA reduction for lower tier builds a couple of times, but RLA… Is yet to catch on. This, in turn, means that you set realistic numbers against a system made of, to put it bluntly, poorly conceived numbers, and thus, official (or official-style) material ends up having a huge disadvantage.

All I'm saying is that it's good form to cater for all the folks who use the actual rules. An unfairly applied fix only makes the balance issues worse.

Thanks for walking me through that! I'll move her LA up to +3 per the original templates, and parentheses the more balanced RLA as +2.

I think this is where this thread and I part ways, because I see a rabbit hole forming, and I don't want to fall down it. I've said my piece and I'll let others chime in.

Regardless, it seems like a fun bordering on hilarious race and I hope it ends up in some campaign where someone walking down the street with 3 extra limbs won't immediately cause a panic.

Thanks for your input! Let me know if you get to try her out and have some fun