Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
I'm a 5e baby, did Rogues have that stuff previously?
No, and the adoption rate of D&D2024 is questionable. Also, it removes the ability for rogues to get sneak attack damage with reaction attacks (Battlemaster, Dissonant Whispers, OAs, etc.) so there's a net nerf at least for parties that work together to set up extra piles of d6s.

I just.. don't understand?

Between Uncanny Dodge and Evasion their defenses are pretty solid (and with mundane gear they're looking at a low-effort AC 17 top). They won't do it all day but they can fill in for frontline pretty well and can be built to do it even better.
AC 17: A basic skeleton (+4 to hit) requires a 13, meaning they have a 40% hit rate. AC 21 (plate + shield + Defense style): A basic skeleton requires a 17 to hit, or a 20% hit rate. Against enemies appropriate for low level characters, a rogue gets hit twice as often as a heavy-armor/sword and board fighter(/paladin/cleric/etc.).

Against, say, a dragon with +10 to hit, the dragon needs a 7 or higher, meaning it has a 70% hit rate, vs against our same AC 21 comparison, the dragon needs an 11, for a 50% hit rate. The rogue is going to get hit 40% more often than the fighter.

At level 20 with +3 gear for everything and a tome, which is the best a rogue can get, the rogue has Dex 22 and is running Studded Leather +3 for an AC of 21. A fighter(/etc.) with +3 plate and a +3 shield has AC 27 with the Defense fighting style. Again, against an enemy with +15 to hit (str 28, PB +6), the rogue has a 75% chance to get hit while the martial has a 45% chance to get hit... so the rogue gets hit almost twice as much.

The rogue's only native way to mitigate the damage of getting hit a lot more is Uncanny dodge, which works against one attack. Getting shot at by 6 skeletons? It doesn't help much. Getting attacked 3 times by a dragon? It helps some, but not as much as not being hit by an attack would. Using Uncanny Dodge also burns the ability to make a second attack (for more sneak attack damage).

Evasion is pretty good, although it fails to help against Cone of Cold, Synaptic Static, Hold Person, Banishment, etc. etc. It's only one saving throw out of six possible, and the higher level you are, the more often you can expect to face enemies that do more than just Evoke at you.

And with how Grapple/Shove works in 5e, Expertise lets them excel at it with really minimal investment.
Yes, if they give up damage. Grapple/shove sub in for iterative attacks. At level 5, any class with Extra Attack can grapple and shove in the same turn. Rogues can grapple in round 1 and shove in round 2, and then start getting to attack with advantage in round 3. The only way around this is to be a TWF rogue, take the attack action by shoving, and then making an off-hand attack as a BA to try to land the sneak attack damage. Rogues can get a higher skill number, but they don't have the action economy to deploy it effectively without a teammate. If you want to make a grapple/shove rogue and you're not chasing that level 18 quasi-capstone, take 5 levels in Fighter to pick up a fighting style, Extra Attack, and a subclass feature. Giving up 2d6-3d6 (7 or 11 damage) of sneak attack for an entire extra attack (1d6+4 or about 7 damage plus options) is worth it.