What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Dork_Forge]

I can't speak for 4e - but in 3.5, all Rogues could UMD, not just a single subclass, and getting your hands on magic items (especially consumables) to use it with was much easier / more readily assumed due to WBL being a baseline expectation. Moreover, their offense had a higher ceiling when optimized since sneak attack triggers on every hit rather than once per turn.

So a bit higher damage, but with how items are in 5e not a whole lot missing comparatively.

What's not to understand? UD works on a single attack per round. By the time you have that 17 AC (8th level at the absolute earliest barring CL) most things you're fighting have multiple attacks. Being in the front also usually means plenty of Con and Str saves, e.g. things trying to poison you. They don't have shield proficiency and have d8 HD.

As a character occasionally stepping in to fill the roll the tank for somereason can't at that moment, they do just fine.

Yes things often have multiple attacks, more attacks typically also means lower damage hits and less damage from an attack is still less damage from an attack. Again, for occasionally stepping in, they do just fine and better than a lot of nontank classes. As for the AC, in actual play with a full build it's no where near as restrictive, heck there's a lot of races now that bump it up to 13+Dex and getting med+shields is frustratingly easy in 5e, nevermind AT with Shield.

It makes them not suck to be sure, but you're overselling Athletics Expertise. Most Rogues have a 10 Str if not 8, so your Expertise in Athletics still puts you behind a Str-based character with simple proficiency at most levels in an actual campaign. They catch up at around level 13, where most campaigns end. And even if you do all that, you're giving up your entire action to use it, compared to a Fighter or Barbarian or Paladin who isn't.

You could instead invest in Str + Athletics Expertise, but then you're making yourself a worse rogue to be better at something that someone else in the party can probably do more easily instead.

Hot take, a Rogue that intends to do any degree of grapple/shoving or just likes the idea of their character not being built like a twig doesn't hard dump Str. Getting a +1 Str is so trivial it isn't really much of an investment, an example array before racials:

12 15 13 10 11 12

Dex is still on pace to max at 8th, with room to take a half feat at 4th (say, Moderately Armored is a Dex half feat that seems relevant to the conversation), with Con primed to be a +2 and a +1 Charisma for face stuff with no hard dumps of 8, because I dislike them. dump Int and that frees up a couple points to throw around.

A +1 Str and Ath Expertise means that the Rogue is going to be on par with Str characters up until 8th level, where they briefly pull ahead by one before it equalised again at 9th.

So not behind at all really besides one level at 8th, with barely any investment. But if they actually want to invest more, or say just have a higher number to put from a roll (since rolled stats are a thing some people do) a simple +2 puts them ahead with increasing gains from there. You don't have to be a StRogue to not have a crappy Str score.

Heck, if it's a Rogue that's actually more than the base class and actually thought 'you know I might want to grapple/shove' or 'it might be fun to be a Rogue that is pretty strong' then they could easily pump further.

A Giff gives permanent advantage, two (?) different races give appendages to grapple with full hands, Soul Knives get Psi-Bolstered Knack, AT's get Silvery Barbs and probably other stuff.

And even if they just go with the +1, yeah being able to score your checks like a Str primary character is still a pretty good bar to be hitting.

I never said they were the best at any of the things being corrected, but they certainly are good enough to do them from time to time.

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No, and the adoption rate of D&D2024 is questionable.

Thanks for that, tbh I fell off the 2024 stuff pretty hard so have lost touch with a lot of the changes, and wasn't a fan of what I saw anyway.

AC 17: A basic skeleton (+4 to hit) requires a 13, meaning they have a 40% hit rate. AC 21 (plate + shield + Defense style): A basic skeleton requires a 17 to hit, or a 20% hit rate. Against enemies appropriate for low level characters, a rogue gets hit twice as often as a heavy-armor/sword and board fighter(/paladin/cleric/etc.).

Against, say, a dragon with +10 to hit, the dragon needs a 7 or higher, meaning it has a 70% hit rate, vs against our same AC 21 comparison, the dragon needs an 11, for a 50% hit rate. The rogue is going to get hit 40% more often than the fighter.

At level 20 with +3 gear for everything and a tome, which is the best a rogue can get, the rogue has Dex 22 and is running Studded Leather +3 for an AC of 21. A fighter(/etc.) with +3 plate and a +3 shield has AC 27 with the Defense fighting style. Again, against an enemy with +15 to hit (str 28, PB +6), the rogue has a 75% chance to get hit while the martial has a 45% chance to get hit... so the rogue gets hit almost twice as much.

The rogue's only native way to mitigate the damage of getting hit a lot more is Uncanny dodge, which works against one attack. Getting shot at by 6 skeletons? It doesn't help much. Getting attacked 3 times by a dragon? It helps some, but not as much as not being hit by an attack would. Using Uncanny Dodge also burns the ability to make a second attack (for more sneak attack damage).

I feel the need to again clarify here:

I am not saying the base Rogue is a good tank, I am saying they are hardy enough that in dire times they can step up to the plate and get smacked around for the team. Which they are. I run a higher level game where the (mostly) Bard takes that roll sometimes simply because they have the most HP left at that point by far.

As for the comparison I don't really think it amounts to much tbh, of course a heavy armor Fighter building for AC and getting two +3 items to the Rogues one. If you actually built a Rogue for AC they wouldn't cap out at 21, heck an AT with Shield doesn't cap out at 21 with no other help or build considerations. They aren't the best at AC, again what I said was that their AC is decent enough. And boosting that AC is pretty darn trivial in an actual build.

Evasion is pretty good, although it fails to help against Cone of Cold, Synaptic Static, Hold Person, Banishment, etc. etc. It's only one saving throw out of six possible, and the higher level you are, the more often you can expect to face enemies that do more than just Evoke at you.

Of course there are things outside of Dex saves, that doesn't take away from the fact that Dex is one of the most common saves in the game.

What I said was Evasion is a good defensive feature, because it just is. I never claimed in anyway that it was a be-all-end-all. But combining it with UA, a d8 Hit Die and decent AC means the Rogue isn't a squishy class, classes being tougher than them (and they should be, that's what their design and thematic are) doesn't take away from my point.

Yes, if they give up damage. Grapple/shove sub in for iterative attacks. At level 5, any class with Extra Attack can grapple and shove in the same turn. Rogues can grapple in round 1 and shove in round 2, and then start getting to attack with advantage in round 3. The only way around this is to be a TWF rogue, take the attack action by shoving, and then making an off-hand attack as a BA to try to land the sneak attack damage. Rogues can get a higher skill number, but they don't have the action economy to deploy it effectively without a teammate. If you want to make a grapple/shove rogue and you're not chasing that level 18 quasi-capstone, take 5 levels in Fighter to pick up a fighting style, Extra Attack, and a subclass feature. Giving up 2d6-3d6 (7 or 11 damage) of sneak attack for an entire extra attack (1d6+4 or about 7 damage plus options) is worth it.

You don't need to Grapple and Shove every time and it was brought up in a teamwork capacity. Yes Extra Attack is a big part of making a character that wants to focus on that kind of thing work well.

That doesn't detract from the fact that a Rogue can be above average at the roll should they want to with minimal investment and that it is an option they can utilize if they want/the situation dictates.

Heck, one situation that comes to mind is a oneshot where a fiend tried to run away to alert the others. As a Monk in that game I ran him down and stopped him easily, but thinking on it a CA:Dash Rogue with Athletics Expertise would have worked just as well with how it went down. Niche? Sure, but a real example that came to mind that I had as a player.