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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Oct 2009
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    Default Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
    8th level Rogue w/ a +1 shortbow, 20 dex, and elven accuracy against AC 17
    w/o adv: 16.15
    w/ adv: 24.99

    8th level Barb w/ a +1 greatsword, 18 str, and GWM against AC 17
    w/o adv (I don't love adding this because barb can get adv far more freely than the rogue can, but just for comparison's sake)
    w/ GWM: 17.5
    w/o GWM: 17.5 (yeah, it's the same. Kinda funny)

    w/ adv
    w/ GWM: 29.09
    w/o GWM: 24.89

    --------

    Barb with adv matches rogue with elven accuracy. Barb with adv and using GWM beats rogue

    I will note, rogue isn't noncompetitive. In play, my guess is it basically feels equal. Rogue having range is going to be able to attack each turn a little easier, while barb will occasionally spend their turn moving.

    The part that is going to feel the most imbalanced between the two is when the barb hits twice. Especially if they're using GWM, that's gonna be FAR more damage than the rogue could possible do outside of a very strong crit.
    If I may swap out +1 shortbow, for +1 rapier which allows the application of booming blade:
    Advantage
    W/o = 25.85
    W/adv = 35.583
    W/elvish = 39.65 *as we get to latter, this is actually higher than the non-crit average, crits are starting to actually matter statistically

    The straight average is only 37 to the barbs 44 so you may be right that the barbarian will feel pretty good about hitting twice, but my quick math is that will only be about a third of the time, even with advantage


    More to my earlier point though,

    For the rogue with the shortbow, let's just add extra attack like is sometimes recommended
    so we have 1d6 + 5, 1d6 + 5 and 4d6 sneak attack dice,

    advantage:
    W/o 23.67
    W/ 31.19*

    I dropped it being a +1 weapon for this math, and as it turns out, we are beating those barbarian with GWM numbers in both categories, no feats or special options, just extra attack and sneak attack with a shortbow. This is what I mean when I say that adding extra attack may be too much, It makes featless no multiclass rogue beat out optimized builds, potentially opens up those optimized builds for rogue on top of that, and has a number of other potential knock on effects with things rogue is already capable of.


    *this may be a little high, when calculating for crit sneak attack is frustrating as hell since technically the first hit not critting reduces the chances of the next hit critting with sneak attack, so it is not quite the same as advantage numbers, so this may be slightly high by a point

    Edit @Dork_Forge for some Yes, and
    For the Two-weapon fighting example, you don't even need the fighting style for a chunk of that, the bonus action attack is a bit lackluster on its own, but a lot of the benefit is for sneak attack with increased consistency.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2024-04-24 at 09:52 PM.
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