Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
Yeah I don't see how TWF makes all that much of a difference. I'm giving the rogue adv because of steady shot (and rather generously too, since they can't move when they use it, and if an enemy gets in their grill they either have to switch to melee or at best attack at neutral).

And if the option is two attacks w/o adv or 1 attack with elven accuracy...well TWF is two chances to hit, and elven accuracy is "three." Steady shot w/ elven accuracy is more likely to get that hit and trigger sneak attack.
I'm not really sure what the issue is here, given the numbers were provided with your own calculator. But TWF is just straight up more actual damage, not just increasing the chance of the 4d6 (avg. 14) Sneak Attack, it's adding its own 1d6+5/6 (avg. 8.5/9.5). TWF is one of the top-shelf damage options for a martial in Tier 1 and getting a second attack is always going to be nice.

But it was also just one of several options I provided.

Also, what damage is being added with booming blade? Because starting at level 5, it adds 1d8 on hit. Assuming the enemy is going to move to trigger the second effect is extremely presumptive. Likely, they're either 1) already in melee and don't need to move, or 2) are ranged enemies who won't move unless they absolutely have to. IME, it is not common to get that secondary damage.
I didn't factor in rider damage at all. I just added the 1d8 attack rider to the 2d8 Shadow Blade. Realistically in some situations the damage will be higher if the rider is triggered or if you use Green-flame Blade and hit a second target.

TL:DR the secondary damage was entirely omitted from the numbers, but would realistically come up sometimes now you've brought it up.

Like, I get it, you guys want to defend rogue and show how good they can be. But you're making extraordinarily favorable assumptions, and the barb doesn't even have a subclass. Shadow blade is a 2nd level spell, which 8th level rogues get 2 of, and it's concentration, and they don't even get Constitution prof. An 8th level barb by comparison has 4 rages.
No favourable assumptions made, and the Barbarian is only missing a subclass because you didn't provide one in the comparison point, but most(?) of them aren't reliably adding anything of note to the damage anyway, and stuff like Zealot complicates using GWM since it increases the value of the base attack.

For the whole Shadow Blade thing, yep an AT can pull that off twice a day, but realistically speaking dropping a d8 and using a rapier for the other encounters is probably going to do just fine. Most tables shouldn't be throwing so many difficult combats at the party in a single day that the AT needs to resort to Shadow Blade more than twice. For maintaining concentration, Uncanny Dodge is great for that, though if it drops it drops.

Same with the Barbarian, they have 4 Rages, that may not be enough to Rage in every combat, but realistically they shouldn't need to Rage in every single encounter at this level.

Listen, I've played with rogues. They can dish, if given some space to work. That's not the core of my criticism.
Then what is the core of your criticism, given all the Barbarian GWM comparisons I thought it was the Rogue's damage lacking?