Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
Clever! I stand corrected
Your not knowing this before now is a bit like me coming into a conversation about Fighters and going off about how bad Polearm Master is because the bonus action attack is "only a d4". I'd technically be entirely correct, but I'd also be completely missing the point and running my mouth about something I simply do not realise the significance of. Off-turn Sneak Attack is bread and butter for a Rogue. A basic assumption that you're trying to achieve. You cannot weigh in on a Rogue (DPR) argument without knowing this. I mean, for all the numbers that were being run upthread, was this not even considered? Was the Rogue being compared based on a single turn of damage instead of their damage per round? The Rogue does not engage the enemy in the same way that most other Classes do; Rogues are setting up, playing false, leaving opportunity open and staying flexible; that's their playstyle. A Fighter has to invest (Feats, ASI, etc.) in both melee and ranged to be effective at both; the Rogue just needs to exist to be nearly as good at both; do you see the difference that makes?

but in this analogy, rogues don't get any leveled spells. And that's exactly their problem.
Not having on-demand nova options is not a drawback. It's a different playstyle and (from your statement I quoted above) one that you do not appear to understand, let alone appreciate. The Wizard doesn't have the Rogues on-demand mobility. The Fighter doesn't have the Rogues on-demand Expertise. The Barbarian actually cares about being caught in a Fireball, so ideally wants to get out of dodge before having it dropped on his head, thereby not doing his job of drawing aggro whilst he does it. The Rogue? Yeah he doesn't care that the Wizard threw a Lightning Bolt down the corridor he's currently engaging the enemy in because he takes half damage even when he fails his save. The "standard" of having buttons to push that have greater effect is predicated largely on having ideal circumstances. The Rogues entire schtick is being reactive to opportunity as it's presented, not to build specifically for a single specialised event (such as "I'm in melee with my favourite weapon to hand" or "I have a nice discreet package of enemy mooks in fireball formation as a target"). The only time a Rogue is caught unprepared is when they have zero equipment or they're finally out of HP; can the same be said for a Wizard? Cleric? Barbarian?. It's all well and good saying "the Wizard has a spell for that" but did the Wizard actually prepare that spell today or are we just assuming they have 100% foresight? About the closest competitor for the Rogues flexibility (and skill set) is the Druid and a lot of that comes from Wildshape which comes with its own, obvious drawbacks (opposable thumbs being a major one!).

the underrated benefit of just being able to throw themselves into the thick of things.
Have you run the numbers on Uncanny Dodge? I've already given you a Rogue that has comparable AC to a Fighter (better, even, in some cases), so now add Uncanny Dodge. d10 HD provides 1+lvl additional HP compared to d8. Uncanny Dodge provides +(attack damage/2)HP per round. Assuming a combat encounter lasts 4 rounds and the Rogue is hit once per round for 10 damage per hit (which is a pretty reasonable amount of damage for a creature to deal with a single attack, across a range of CR), the Rogue already mitigated as many additional HP that a 20th level Fighter would have over the Rogue after a single encounter. And they can tank that amount of damage and still be standing at level 5 (assuming they have at least 21HP to start with...which they do, even with Con 8). And you say a Rogue can't throw themselves into the thick of things and tank a couple of hits for the party? Yes, the Rogue can only do it against one attack per round. Yes, the Rogue has to give up the potential to deal off-turn Sneak Attack to do it. But the point is that they can do it and they have the option of doing it. Want to talk about underrated? Yeah. The Rogue is criminally (pun intended) underrated because they continue to be viewed through the lens of peoples expectations and assumptions rather than the actual rules as they are being presented. Please feel free to run you own numbers on what Uncanny Dodge actually does to the Rogue effective HP pool compared to the Fighter or even Barbarian (noting also that the Rogue only needs a Reaction to use Uncanny Dodge compared to the Barbarian requiring a Bonus Action and a resource to activate Rage) and come back to me about Rogues tanking.