What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[JellyPooga]

But you playing Schrodinger's Rogue and giving them credit for EVERYTHING they can do, all at once, does not convince me they are better than last place among 5e classes. That indeed is a huge problem for them: they can do some stuff. But not at the frequency they need to. If they dash, they can't disengage. If they disengage, they can't hide. If they give themselves advantage (a large factor in their DPR), they can't do ANY of those things cause they can't move. If they're tough, they also lose a ton of DPR. Unfortunately for rogue, there's class options that are not so burdened by the action economy.

There's where we differ. Where you see competition for action resource, I see opportunity. Can the Rogue use Uncanny Dodge and off-turn Sneak Attack on the same turn? No. But they can Dash or Disengage to be in a position where they're able to take advantage of one or the other and still get to use their Action to attack, grapple or whatever else they're doing on their own turn. If the Rogue has a problem of competing action economy, it's because unlike most other Classes, the Rogue has the option of or are encouraged to play for actively taking more actions both on and off their turn. A Fighter is not incentivised to take an Opportunity or Readied attack in the same way a Rogue is, so they don't. A Rogue actively benefits from doing so. A Rogue that isn't using their Bonus Action and Reaction in as many rounds as possible is definitely missing out in a way that other classes either aren't or can't even begin to appreciate. A Wizard using Bonus Action or Reaction spells is burning twice as bright but half as long and that's a problem. Not so for the Rogue; it's expected that they just...do more. Just less effectively. 1+1+1+1 is the same as 2+2 or 3+1, but you're looking at the 1's and comparing them to the 3's rather than comparing the sum.

Schrodinger's Rogue is one that does everything all on the same turn, yes. What I'm advocating is the Rogue that does a lot in one round, yes, but they do it consistently from one round to the next, as appropriate to the situation at hand. In a hall of infinite (and varied) encounters, just about every Class but the Rogue runs out of spells and other resources before the Rogue finally says "I'm beat" because again, the Rogue's only limited resource is HP and they're really really good at reserving those when they need to. In addition to that, the Rogues breadth of abilities means that he is useful across more of those encounters than just about anyone else; melee, ranged, skills, exploration, social; it's not even a thought exercise to build a Rogue that participates across the board because that's just a baseline, run-of-the-mill Rogue before adding any specialisation or further versatility.

Schrodingers Spellcaster, on the other hand, appears to have infinite spell slots and perfect foresight, despite actual Classes and individual characters in actual play being far more limited. Far more of a problematic argument than the Rogue I present, IMO.

When I used the phrase "selfish class" to describe the 5e Rogue class, I was not making any reference to normative judgments on morality, I certainly was not thinking about D&D PvP or stealing from the party or other such actions.

And yet those very things have been brought up in this thread to denigrate the Class, despite that being a player problem.

The common Rogue play pattern of Hide, Pop out and Sneak Attack, go back and Hide, is "selfish", in the sense that often-times, the Rogue is not an available target for the opposition.

A Rogue, (or any PC), that is not taking their share of damage, can become problematic, as balancing incoming damage across a Party, is an important resource management tool.

Hide N' Sneak-Attack, as a tactic, places a larger burden of the incoming damage share on the remaining party members.

Evasion, as an ability, also plays into this disparity. Quite a bit of damage in 5e, calls for Dexterity Saving Throws for half damage. The Rogue and Monk have taken no damage, but the rest of the party is bedraggled from loss, is something I see quite a bit in play. The Fighter and Bard want to take a Short Rest, and the Rogue wants to keep on going, because Rogues only Short Rest for Hit Points....which is yet another point in which the Rogue is not on the same resource use path as some other classes, and a potential source of conflict.

Tactical habits also become ingrained. The Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger in my 20th level game, almost never will tank a creature, despite the fact that when their Bladesong is active, they have the highest AC in the party, and have the Shield spell and Uncanny Dodge to boot.

In the player's mind, their Rogue circles around the combat, waiting for a chance to strike, even though, their actual abilities make them an excellent choice for wading into the thick of things, and thriving.

Do you not see how this is not an issue of the Class, but the player? You point out yourself that the AT/Bladesinger player would be better placed in the thick of things according to the numbers on their character sheet and yet somehow it's a fault of or encouraged by features of the Class? Likewise, Rogues can certainly benefit from peek-a-boo tactics, but are by no means limited to them and there's a strong argument that they are better served as a switch hitter, using both ranged and melee depending on which is the most beneficial in the moment. Again, it's a player choice not to engage and take themselves out of the target pool; after all, no-one is forcing any Rogue to even take Stealth proficiency, let alone Expertise.

Rogues, as a class, also generally lack control abilities, which in part explains why Arcane Trickster is as effective as it is; spells allow control. Other Rogue subclasses can throw nets, but let's face it, most players are not playing a Rogue, to throw nets. Grapple and lack of Extra Attack has been discussed enough, earlier.

Most Rogue subclasses offer some degree of control, whether it's the Arcane Trickster using "traditional" spell control, the Swashbuckler drawing aggro or the Thief manipulating terrain elements with Fast Hands. It might not look like the nice discreet function of a spell, but there's far more than just nets (really, nets? I didn't think anyone used those ) for less-than-magical control elements. That said, I do tend to agree that Rogues in general do not have much in the way of control elements in the traditional sense.

Bardic Inspiration, is for me, the gold standard of a simple, yet flavorful ability, that subtly boosts the survivability of an Adventuring Group.

I agree. I think the Bard is a strong contender for best designed Class in the game (that and Paladin).

An Arcane Trickster with Silvery Barbs, can certainly aid their friends, and bring woe to their foes, just as a Thief with Healer Feat can be an excellent healer, but a player has to work at it. Paladins and Bards on the opposite end of the spectrum, have to work hard to not help their friends.

Rogue is an advanced Class, yes. They're hard to "get right" precisely because they come with a whole heap of undeserved baggage (Thief. PvP. Lone Wolf. Squishy) on top of a playstyle that is really quite different to that of other Classes and their "push button, do thing until you run out of buttons" dynamic.