Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!

[ericgrau]

Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

Full level 7 character equipment and unusual things that ogres can do which PCs cannot. Like being large size all the time and having an unusually high strength to break stuff. Heck, in 2nd edition monster henchman controlled by PCs lost their darkvision purely for this reason & balance. No player races had darkvision in 2e, and it was a big deal to have access to darkvision in 2e. An enemy ogre barbarian is still CR 3 + class levels because he doesn't have all that gear and because his abilities to do things like break down dungeon walls & doors aren't much use in a fight against the PCs. i.e., ECL and CR are intentionally two different values b/c the power of an ogre in the fight against the PCs is completely different from the power of an ogre in the hands of a PC.

That's the reason and the whole reason. Both in terms of actual balance and IIRC the formal reason given by those who put the system together in the first place.