GURPS and why you should be playing it!

[Kizara]

(And I'm not too fond of Add Multiple Dice systems anyway, which as I recall GURPS is - and I might be wrong, sicne it's been a while since I looked at Discworld GURPS.)

If you mean a dice pool, no it doesn't use that (and I don't like those systems etheier). It uses 3d6 for its resolution mechanics, like 3/4e DnD uses 1d20 for it's. Circumstance modifiers are added to this roll depending on the situation, like in DnD.

From a mechanical standpoint, I don't want to be figuring out a half dozen+ different modifiers and calculate the most optimal way to debilitate my opponent on every single basic attack. While simulationism is a fun endeavor, with my current group, trying to do that would take forever (which I realize is not necessarily the issue with every group, so don't say "oh that's a group issue and not a system one"). Heck, sometimes it takes them a while to figure out what they're going to be doing on their turn in 4e, and that's "relatively simple" with the math written out for them.

This isn't really the case. One of the things that makes GURPS easier to run then DnD is that you don't have looks of + modifieres and bonuses from different sources to deal with. You start getting a bit more of this at higher points or when magic is involved, but its not the headache that 3e was. Is it as simple as 4e? Probably not.

Approximately how diverse can power levels along the same point buy become, assuming not necessarily uber-optimized, but say math majors who are unfamiliar with the system versus your average shiny-explosion loving teenager become? Let's assume average optimization for the MM and "rule of cool" for the latter. "Spike" vs "Timmy/Johnny" in MtG terms, if you understand those. One of the issues we had with Scion is that with some basic application of the value of exp vs bonus points in the beginning, certain players were able to create characters who were strictly better (ie, exactly identical, but with more exp left to spend) than another character. Note: this was a thought exercise and not just some player being a jerk to another.

This is a good question, and to an extent I have not played with the system long enough to honestly be able to answer it.

However, I can say that if you take the time to examine all options for your character, chose only what you really need, and seek ways to get discounts on points, you can do more with less. The difference isn't going to be close what it is in 3e DnD, but you can have two people make the same character, and have one who was better at specializing for his role and is more effective at it. The other character will have some 'cool' things which are perhaps not as helpful as his player thought they would be (but its NOWHERE the level of picking bad feats and classes in 3e). As far as your specific example of "experience points vs bonus points in the begining" I'm not familiar with that system to really know what you mean by it, but I don't believe GURPS has an 'exploit' like that.

Supplementary, how easy is it to create someone focused on social or mental aspects, but have decent secondary prowess in combat? Another problem we had in Scion is that our Mental character managed to create someone with minimal combat applications (neither command skills, nor combat skills, nor useful tricks, I realize that this is a build-fault and not a system fault per se, but I was curious how easy it was to say, create a "scientist" who is still half decent at defending herself.)

This, however, is not what you may want to hear. Being a point-based system, you have to pay for everything in GURPS. So, if you make a social character or a knowledge-based character, you will not also have as many points to make a combat master. However, you can at least contribute to combat by having just 1 weapon skill (they cost as much as normal skills), having some hp (which any character should buy, and its cheap comparitively, at 2 pts/HP) and playing intelligently. But, yes, if someone spends absolutely no effort at all towards combat, they will have no abilities in it, but its possible to make a social face or a knowledge master that has some combat ability on your point budget. For instance, you could have the scientist have Guns skill and use the guns he invents, thus making him a potent, if somewhat fragile warrior. You could have a medival bard that has magic (there's rules for bardic magic, they aren't fantastic but they are there), and magic can of course contribute in many ways.

With the myriad of immersion options that you're promoting as a good thing in GURPS, approximately how long does combat take, assuming battles between equivalent or near equivalent powers?

Ever use the ToB with 3e? While the rules are not similar to those much at all, its a good gauge for complexity. I would say that there's as much to learn of GURPS combat (assuming you don't use the crazy-detailed highly-optional Martial Arts rules) as there is of ToB mechanics and various Maneavuers. If people know what they are doing, and understand what's going on (battle map, good DM description), it depends on the players. If you have players that are decisive, it'll go pretty quick. If they diddly around about every possible option, then you are going to have to give them a bit of a boot in the pants. In general, if you are using the cool tactical options rules, it doesn't make for a 'quick and dirty' combat resolution, but a more tactically immersive one that yes does take a bit longer.

- long and complicated combat resolution (we were using blocks, dodges and parries), leading to long combat. This is actually more important for me now, as my typical session is around 4 hours. Actually the question is, how long does combat take for a typical group compared to 3.5?

- very slow character advancement, or the character gets more powerful very slowly. Has that been changed with the editions?

For the first, it depends on the kind of DnD you are running. If you have all splats open and have to worry about a myrid of different kinds of effects, circumstantial bonuses, unique abilities and so forth, then I'd say that GURPS combat is far less of a bookkeeping headache.

However, to address the issue, let me give an example:

Most people have a priority order for their defenses, they know if they are attacked they are going to try to use (say) parry first, then dodge (cause they have no shield). So when they are attacked, they already know what their parry is unless the attacker used Deceptive attack, which lowers it by a cooresponding amount.

So it goes like this:

GM: Bob, you are attacked by the gnoll. He's aiming for your left arm.
GM: *rolls attack roll* Ok its good, roll defense.
Bob: *rolls parry, his best defense* Ok I made it.
(next action)

GM: Ok Sue, you are attacked but *this* gnoll, he's going for a face shot.
GM: *rolls* Oh... well he crited, sorry Sue.
GM: *referes to his cheatsheet, sees that a face hit increases the wounding multiplier for the gnoll's weapon to 2x* *rolls damage, multipliers it by 2x*
GM: Ok Sue, the gnoll hits you in the face for (1d6+2 (5)x2=10) 10 damage, and since its a headshot roll vs stunning.
Sue: *rolls vs HT* Phew, I made it.
GM: Ok sue you are now staggard though, as you have less than 1/3 hp remaining, this cuts your basic move in half, which also effects your move speed and dodge.
Sue: :(

This should give you some idea.

For the second point, yes unless your GM wants to be liberal with points, your characters do not gain in power that quickly, but at a more realistic pace. Also, this is part of the reason the system is more inherently balanced, because you don't have 1 small dungeon and a few random encounters and (now being level 5) have a plethora of new abilities. Not only does this not really make much sense if you think about it, but I find that it gets out of hand quickly. I often used 1/2 xp progression to keep leveling more sane.

Truth be told, I found it a bit limiting at first as well, but in some ways you appreciate how your character grows and when you do get that new, 15-pt ability, its more meaningful for you.

But enough of the negativity. I have supportive questions for you.
1) I only have the Characters book. How important is Campaigns?
2) How can I learn to play GURPS? I'm estranged from a real gaming group, and use PbP for most everything.

1) This can be easily compared to 3e DnD. How important is it to have the DMG? Well, you can run the game without it, but you don't have as much to work with. I would actually say that Campaigns is more important then the 3e DMG, as it has many good and game-enhancing optional rules, and good explanations or expansions of existing ones. You don't need it, but its really nice to have.

2) Well, if you are patient there's always the read the books and learn method. Its not that hard really, if you have a bit of patience and stick with it. Alternately, get someone like me on an IM service and learn by pestering them with questions as you read. Finally, you can come to this (or the GURPS) forums if you have additional questions.

1. It's kinda a meta-system. More of a D20 analog than a D&D comparison, if you get me. IMO, meta-systems are clumsy, require a *lot* more work to build a good setting from, and in general, making it harder to have a good, believable setting makes it harder to have a good game. On the flip side...it's not the worst meta-system I've played with. I had the misfortune to try Hero once, back before I finished post-calculus math.

I'm not sure I get you here. Yes, GURPS is independant of any specific setting, but how does it make it harder for you to make your own? Most of the details about worlds and settings are independant of the gaming system, and GURPS is largely simulating sensible, realistic rules that should not get in the way of any believable setting.

For instance, the way that magic works makes more sense to have things like apprentice mages or mages that master 1 particular spell and become known for it, both staples of many fantasy worlds. The way combat works means that you don't have to just rely on 'DM description' to have, say, a PC cut off an opponent's arm in a shower of blood. To me this adds to immersion and a believable setting.

2. I prefer blended systems rather than more consistent systems. I love than in D&D, the casting mechanics are interestingly different than psionics, truenaming, straight melee, or what have you. As you've probably guessed, Im referring to 3.5 and previous, as 4.0 is a departure from that. From what I've seen, Gurps doesn't have the same variety in mechanics. Now sure, this makes balancing the game easier, but frankly...I don't care.

I understand where you are coming from. I have the same feelings myself, and there is a bit that's lost here with GURPS. I feel you gain far more then you lose, but I will admit that one of the things that makes it less of a headache is that it doesn't have a different system for everything, but that also makes all those other concepts a bit less unique.

I will say that magic works, feels and functions quite a bit differently then, say, melee combat or gun use. But its still tied into the normal system enough that its not a nightmare.

Is GURPS more homogonized then 3e? Maybe slightly, but nothing at all like 4e. Honestly though, one of the reasons that we stopped playing 3e (before we found GURPS, so we just didn't really play at all) is that we got so tired of all the millions of things you have to try to keep track of, or designing settings that include all of the oddball choices out there, or keeping track and balancing 30 different styles of mechanics. I will however say that its good to come to GURPS with a 3e background, as you have all the cool ideas from it in your mind and you can make them with GURPS (more or less).

3. As for customization...sure, there are a great deal of options, but who would really say that say, D&D 3.5 lacks options for characters? Most of the RPGs I play anyhow are great on customizability, so that's really not a big draw. It seemed like a generally slow game to play, too...but that may be because only one of us was familiar with the system. Hard to call on that one.

GURPS has less options then all of 3e's splat, but it has more customizability by far. You see, in DnD you have a limited amount of character reasources during the course of your character's career, and how you use them is where optimizing comes in (and yes this is fun, I enjoyed it too). You will go to level 20, and the path you get there is what matters, and what feats and skills you pick.

But your feats and skills are dependant on your class, which is a pre-defined trope that focuses you into a role. In GURPS, you can pick whatever skills and advantages (sorta like feats) that fit your character concept, and are not bound by a class. Also, when you gain more points during adventuring, you can spend them on things your character has actually learned and improved upon in his time. But that's not really what makes it so customizable, and to explain this is a bit hard without you having the character book because the material that shows the customization options is like 20 pages.

You see, when you take an advantage, lets say an Innate Attack breath weapon. Currently, its a line of fire (cause you chose fire out of 6 other options) that does 1d6 damage usable at will for 5 pts/level. Now, you go over to the Enhancements and Limitations part of the book, and apply:

Cone (10 yard width) +100%
Limited Use (1 per-day usage) -40%
Jet (continous beam like a flamethrower) +0%
Costs Fatigue (2 FPs) -10%
Cyclic (fire clings like a Napalm effect for 1 second, but is resistable) +50%

So, while you can do some of this with a metabreath feat and such, here it's just how you define the ability. Also, you can increase the damage by buying that attack at higher level (the 1d6 is base 1 level ability). Now, bare in mind that this is options I have chosen out of many others and you can see what I begin to mean by customizability.

EDIT: If anyone feels they have raised a question that has not adequately been addressed by myself or another, please repeat yourself. I cannot monitor this thread 24/7 and there's a lot to go through and people have similar questions. But I don't want anyone to feel they are being ignored.

However, for those trying to drag up stuff from a previously locked thread (and debatably attacking me), please stop doing it, as I do not want this thread to get locked and will not address your concerns of things that were not said in this thread. If you have a personal issue with me I invite you to PM me.