3.5 Barbarian Help

[togapika]

3rd level, 32 point buy, no non-PHB base classes.
I was thinking dwarf for a race.
We'll have 4 players and one of them is playing a dual wielding fighter with monkey grip
Greyhawk campaign setting

[BobVosh]

18 str, dump rest into con/dex however you want.
Power attack is first feat.
Shock trooper if it is availiable at your level.
If not, I dunno, Flying kick? Get something that helps charges.

Lion Totem Barbarian variant out of UA is your friend. Win encounters with a charge.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

And you need help with???

Basically max out your STR, DEX, and CON. Power attack, cleave, big ass two handed weapon. Extra Rage feat, Extend Rage feat.
basically max out your rage potential and damage output and you've done your job....
Also, with high CON and HD, eventually invest in a necklace of fireballs, get yourself purposefully surrounded, and set off a gem on yourself.

[NEO|Phyte]

Also, with high CON and HD, eventually invest in a necklace of fireballs, get yourself purposefully surrounded, and set off a gem on yourself.

Pick up a Helm of Brilliance while you're at it.

[UserClone]

That's the wrong Lion Totem. You are talking about the Lion Spirit Totem out of Complete Champion.

[Devils_Advocate]

1. Rage.
2. Charge.
3. Two-handed Power Attack for MASSIVE DAMAGE!
4. Profit! (via looting corpses)

The basics of playing a barbarian are pretty simple. Your primary stats are Str and Con. Dex is also good, but Barb "defense" is based mainly around killing the other guy before he can hit you, and failing that being able to take absurd amounts of damage.

It helps to have a cleric on standby. If you've lost enough HP, your rage ending can kill you, because all those extra hit points go away when it ends. So remember how many of those HP are extra, so you know when your hit points are so low that you need to be healed.

Track is a viable first-level feat, if no one else in your party has the Survival skill. It should go without saying that if you take this, you should max Survival out. It should also go without saying that if this campaign is all about killing whatever monsters you happen to encounter, not hunting anything down, you'd be better off with a more combat-oriented feat.

[Belobog]

I would echo most of the sentiments stated here, but I would swap out the Dex recommendation with an Int recommendation. Rather than having a few points more of AC and a better Ref save, you could try and go for some more skills, which gives you more options of what to do when you aren't in combat, and might help you with combat by giving you more skill points to gain the skills ranks needed to qualify for PrCs/feats. Also, you'd pick up some more languages, but I can't remember a single time in my gaming career where language has ever come into play.

[Triaxx]

Not to mention that if you need AC, and have a feat to burn, Combat Expertise is available for high INT characters.

I prefer a defensive Barbarian, Power Attack is fine, but EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip when you have a free feat will net you a lot of time to pound on the enemies, as they rise, as they approach, as they try and cast. Particularly if you can get a Wizard to drop a Grease to either side of you.

[Eldariel]

I'll give you whatever build you want as soon as you tell me what books are available. Otherwise I cannot know what feats, class features and company you can or can not use.

[BobVosh]

That's the wrong Lion Totem. You are talking about the Lion Spirit Totem out of Complete Champion.

is that the one that does pounce? My bad.

Also this: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi.../t-111360.html

[7th lvl scrub]

Unless you have a Wizard/Cleric/Bard/Anybody who can cast Calm Emotions or Hold Person, don't PrC Frenzied Berserker. I would also like to echo what everybody else has been saying, Power Attack, and Cleave are a must, Leap Attack is pretty solid(and fun) if you have enough ranks in jump as well. However, I prefer Combat Brute to Shock Trooper, although its not like they both can't be used. You want to also take Extend Rage and Extra Rage if you can too.

For races I prefer Humans for just about anything 3.5 related, extra skill points, and an extra feat? Thank you very much.

[Tempest Fennac]

Not everything in this thread will apply to your character, but it could be useful if you wanted a defencive Barbarian: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91678 (I still haven't made that character. I've RPed a version of her who didn'd have anything to do with Yeenoghu in a solo game I'm DMing, though (he doesn't exist in my campaign world because I decided not to bother with racial dieties).

[togapika]

I have access to pretty much every WOTC book for 3 and 3.5, but I'm trying to limit the number of books I use to make it easier on my DM.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

However, I prefer Combat Brute to Shock Trooper, although its not like they both can't be used.

For races I prefer Humans for just about anything 3.5 related, extra skill points, and an extra feat? Thank you very much.

I am so glad someone mentioned Combat Brute. What a fantastic feat.

For Barb races though, I do lean towards an Earth Dwarf (Unearthed Arcana) or a Goliath (Races of Stone).

[ericgrau]

IMO dwarf doesn't combine well with barbarian speed. Barbs get a little boost to offense for a large drop to defense. The mobility, uncanny dodge and so forth is there to make up for it; the strategic advantage makes up for lack of toe-to-toe ability. Not that a dwarf barbarian won't work, it should still be fairly decent.

Let's say you have 20 strength in a rage, with a greatsword. That's 14 average damage and 8 AB. And let's say you're still fighting orcs at your level, a relatively low 13 AC. An upgrade to, say, hobgoblins might bump that to 15 AC. But 13 is a good low number to start with. Your average damage per round is (not including crits):

(80% hit chance) * 14 = 11.2
w/ weapon focus: (85%) * 14 = 11.9 (+0.7)
w/ power attack +3: (65%) * 20 = 13.0 (+1.8)

Not bad (though hardly massive), but how about a CR 3 monster, like an ogre (AC 16):
(65% hit chance) * 14 = 9.1
w/ weapon focus: (70%) * 14 = 9.8 (+0.7)
w/ power attack +3: (50%) * 20 = 10.0 (+0.9)

Still par, at least. But the thing is it only gets worse with level, and even against low AC monsters it isn't spectacular. More results are here. Power attack will be great at your level, but it's front loaded and gets weak later as your damage goes up. It's main advantage is against low AC opponents, like if you go from fighting orcs to armies of orcs. Otherwise it should still be useful for a few levels, and then still barely useful until about level 10; so it's still a reasonable option if you like that.

The barbarian can't use combat expertise while raging, so it's less of an advantage for him to get. And really a shield will be worth more (without as bad of a hit to offense) if you want defense. But if you're trying to get low mobility and good defense, you'd be better off switching to a sword-and-board fighter instead. Not saying you should. IMO you should go the whole way and play a THF barb without worrying. Just try to use some strategy & movement to avoid getting hurt too bad.

The stat tips, etc. mentioned are good though. But your feat selection really depends on your campaign. Just pick whatever you think you'll use a lot (not just sometimes, but a lot), instead of conforming to the same cookie-cutter barbarian people think everybody just has to make.

[Curmudgeon]

What's wrong with a straight Orc? Grab some sunglasses and you're a pretty cool Barbarian.

[shadowdemon_lord]

For a barbarian, I'd recommend picking a race that can call Barbarian (or fighter) it's favored class. Using fighter as a two level dip class for the barbarian can be exceedingly useful, Barbarians hurt for feats, especially if you want to enter a fighter or barbarian PrC.

[Flickerdart]

Attack bonus scales with level, though, while AC does not as well. Where's that chart for average AC by CR?

Anyways. At your level, you have Rage, 18 STR, +3 BAB and three feats of your choice if you went Human, which you should. Take Power Attack, Extend Rage and Extra Rage, so you can have fun all day.

So that's an effective 22 STR while raging, which is a +6 bonus, because you're sinking your BAB into Power Attack. You'll hit that sucker for 2d6(avg 7)+12 damage, 19 on average, about half the time, sure. But what if you sunk less points into it? For only +2 PA, you'll have a +7 to hit, and 2d6+8 damage, 17 on average. You'll hit 5% more often now (9 or above), for a loss of 2 damage. Average damage: 55%*17=9.35, versus 50%*19=9.5. No good, since you're not doing much better than no PA at all (7 or better to hit, 65%*13=8.45), only 1 damage more.

But hold! What happened to this fair Barbarian's money? A 3rd level character has 6,000 gold to use. He can easily afford a +1 Greatsword, a 2000GP value. Let's see how we fair now!

2d6+13 damage and +7 to hit is 11 average damage. Without Power Attack, it's 2d6+7 at +10 to hit, or merely 9.1. We have an average bonus of 2 damage when using a Masterwork weapon. Already considerably better, not to mention the fact that average from a d20 is 10.5, not 10, and we have an extra 2.5% chance to hit on both things, further giving Power Attack the lead.

[Kaiyanwang]

- Orc
- Complete Champion alt class feature (charge + full attack)
- Cityscape web enhancement alternaive class feature (give up DR for augmented range in charge and the ability to "continue the charge onc you frop the enemy with you FIRST attack)
- Complete Warrior charge feats
- Leap attack from Complete Adventurer

Done.

[Eldariel]

I'd consider Human, Orc and Dwarf as the decent options for race. However, Dwarf is at a distinct disadvantage if the Spirit Lion Totem substitution from Complete Champion (Fast Movement for Pounce) is allowed, since Dwarf really needs the Fast Movement to be efficient offensively.

The simpliest ways you could go:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14-16 (relatively important for non-standard Rage Barbarians)
Int 8-10
Wis 8-12
Cha 8-10

Wolf-Totem Barbarian from Unearthed Arcana, Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana, Spirit Lion Barbarian from Complete Champion; in the end, this trade leaves you with Whirling Frenzy, Pounce and Improved Trip as your class features thus far. The beauty of this is that you don't need Int 13 for Improved Trip. Thus Orc would be optimal (maximum strength for Tripping), but if you're not allowed MM-races, Human is probably the way to go.

For feats, pick up Power Attack (seriously, combined with Tripping, you'll just hit always and you'll have lots of fat in your attack rolls), Extra Rage ('cause damn, Rage increases your prowess tenfold especially combined with Whirling Frenzy and tripping, and you really want more than one use of it) and probably Improved Bull Rush (preparing for Shock Trooper on level 6). Other options include Endurance > Steadfast Determination (wasteful though), Combat Reflexes or Martial Study > Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades (on level 9). Mage Slayer is also a decent option.

[Curmudgeon]

At your level, you have Rage, 18 STR, +3 BAB and three feats of your choice if you went Human, which you should.

You could have 22 STR (without rage) if you go Orc. You only get 1 point of increase in a stat every 4 levels, so boosting your primary stat from the beginning is an investment that keeps paying off. Plus Barbarian is the favored class for Orcs, so you've got the option to pick up a couple levels of Fighter for feats.

[Flickerdart]

You could have 22 STR (without rage) if you go Orc. You only get 1 point of increase in a stat every 4 levels, so boosting your primary stat from the beginning is an investment that keeps paying off. Plus Barbarian is the favored class for Orcs, so you've got the option to pick up a couple levels of Fighter for feats.

Eh, but the -1 in bright sunlight thing is annoying. Although it's a net gain...and your Will saves and skill points will suffer accordingly.

[Curmudgeon]

Eh, but the -1 in bright sunlight thing is annoying.

Goggles of Day cost 4,500 gp, so you don't need to suffer past about level 7. (Or visit the Tomb of Horrors. There's a pair waiting not very far inside at all. )

[Mephit]

That, OR you just purchase Sundark Goggles (RotD) for 10 gp.

And for all those people yelling out 'Lion Spirit Totem!', I think the OP asked for core base classes. (Sure, it's a variant, but still...)

I wonder, though: Is there any way to optimise your barbarian without making a typical charger?
It's all I ever hear about when someone asks a barbarian build, (especially Lion Spirit Totem, an ACF from one of the most broken books in 3.5e) and it's getting kind of old.

[holywhippet]

I'd go for a half-orc barbarian with a single level of cleric. Make sure you pick a god that has the strength domain available. Your attack penalty and strength bonus cancel each other out, but that strength bonus still applies to damage. The main benefit though is your weapon increases one size category.

[Curmudgeon]

That, OR you just purchase Sundark Goggles (RotD) for 10 gp.

Well, finally! It's about time somebody made a mundane item to solve a fairly common problem. Thanks for the reference. For anybody who's interested, they're on page 123 of Races of the Dragon. That makes Orc a much more reasonable race to start with.

[Mephit]

For the record, Races of Eberron has a similar item for 1 sp, but it imposes a -1 penalty on Spot checks.

[Eldariel]

Or you could be a Dragonborn Orc. Annoying Dex penalty, but Con boost and a bunch of handy racial abilities. Water Orc gets extra points for Con and Swim-speed (strictly better than normal Orc, but that's 'cause they really got lazy making the MM races).

[imperialspectre]

I wonder, though: Is there any way to optimise your barbarian without making a typical charger?
It's all I ever hear about when someone asks a barbarian build, (especially Lion Spirit Totem, an ACF from one of the most broken books in 3.5e) and it's getting kind of old.

There really isn't another way to build a Barbarian. You don't get feats, so lockdown builds won't help you, and you get no love in general in terms of combat maneuvers. Rage precludes a number of combat options, and you have no source of bonus damage for archery or precision fighting. The only thing left is taking something really big, sharp and pointy and hitting people in the face with it, and the best way to do that is charging.

[Eldariel]

Uhm, Wolf-Totem Barbarian effectively skips two "musts" for a normal control-build so you've got enough feats to build a decent Barbarian Controller around Tripping, especially since Rage adds to the Trip-checks.