[3.5] Beguiler

[quiet1mi]

This Thread will be broken up into many questions...

Is charm person,charm monster and Dominate person a valid weapon for a person who has taken a sacred vow of nonviolence and/or peace?

I plan to make a level 8 Beguiler who takes the Vow of Poverty,non-violence and possibly peace.

The biggest worry I have is overusing the Beguiler's ability to manipulate people to the point of becoming Lawful Evil...

Does anyone have any advise for a lawful good character who uses enchantment and illusions with out becoming a "knight Templar / Fascist" and thus Lawful Evil...

also, is there any good prestige classes for a Beguiler?

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm pretty sure they class as non-violent. I'm not sure about PrCs, but WotC would probably argue that using enchantments to stop people from being evil is good (I honestly hated how illofgical the ethics in BoED are, so it may be wise to check with your DM about whether it would be evil first).


EDIT: Actually, I just remembered someone telling me that BoVD claimed that all mind control is evil (they were critercising the fluff for my Vulpine race because they use Curses and Dominate Person spells to punish dangerous criminals).

[kamikasei]

Is charm person,charm monster and Dominate person a valid weapon for a person who has taken a sacred vow of nonviolence and/or peace?

Unless I'm forgetting something important, since they don't kill or do damage, they're fine.

The biggest worry I have is overusing the Beguiler's ability to manipulate people to the point of becoming Lawful Evil...

Does anyone have any advise for a lawful good character who uses enchantment and illusions with out becoming a "knight Templar / Fascist" and thus Lawful Evil...

Illusions are fine. Enchantment is more problematic. Using sleep is fine, using dominate person... in general, it's not a very good act to deprive someone of their free will. You should not be charming people into doing themselves harm or acting as unwitting cannon fodder for you; you definitely shouldn't be dominating people for any length of time. On the other hand, charming a guard to get past him without coming to blows, or dominating an enemy to lay down his weapon so that you can subdue him without killing him, are legit.

also, is there any good prestige classes for a Beguiler?

Mindbender is good for a dip because you can take the first level, gain telepathy, and then go back to Beguiler, but the dip will delay your Advanced Learning class feature by a level and thus let you use it to pick up a higher-level spell. However, its prereqs are nongood.

Oh, yeah, forgot to say, in general PrCs aren't great for Beguilers because you're not likely to get both full casting and good skills.

[Keld Denar]

Is charm person,charm monster and Dominate person a valid weapon for a person who has taken a sacred vow of nonviolence and/or peace?

While enchantment spells are not inherantly [Evil], they carry a pretty great responibility. Anything that a charmed/dominated character does under your influence is your responsibility. If you dominate someone and then order them to kill someone, its just the same as if you had killed them youself. Ammoral acts can cause you to lose your exalted status, which permanently revokes all of your exalted feats. Plus, [Mind Affecting] is almost more commonly warded against than [Fire], which will make you sad.

I plan to make a level 8 Beguiler who takes the Vow of Poverty,non-violence and possibly peace.

Bad idea. Sacred Vows are bad. Even for a primary caster, its still better ot have magic items than not. Don't do it.

The biggest worry I have is overusing the Beguiler's ability to manipulate people to the point of becoming Lawful Evil...

Any [Evil] acts you or those you dominate commit will be counted against you, and may cause you to lose your exalted status. If you do, you lose access to all of your Vow feats.

Does anyone have any advise for a lawful good character who uses enchantment and illusions with out becoming a "knight Templar / Fascist" and thus Lawful Evil...

Don't take Vows. Just RP being "exalted" and take feats that aren't gonna hamstring your character. Take more useful things, even Spell Focus: Enchantment would be better.

also, is there any good prestige classes for a Beguiler?

The best PrC for a Beguiler is more Beguiler...and maybe Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone, Gnome only), but that gets away from the [Mind Affecting] and makes for more shadow subtype illusions. 1 level dip in Mindbender would probably be good at some point though, for the 100' Telepathy which allows you to take Mind Sight from Lords of Madness.

[Noneoyabizzness]

or just a heavy handed lawful neutral. either way too much charming just to make people act how you want them to or to just stop being evil is not really good.

[Keld Denar]

or just a heavy handed lawful neutral. either way too much charming just to make people act how you want them to or to just stop being evil is not really good.

Yea, but there is a difference between Good and Exalted. If your character is Exalted, and meerly acts Good, you will fall and lose your Exalted status and all the perks with it. You have to BE Exalted to keep it. Thats the price you pay, and IMO, that price is WAY too high for WAY too little benefit. Being a LN(E) Inquisitor type will make you fall from Exalted faster than a feather on the moon (physics jokes...heh). Thats just the way it is. Its not a matter of being Good or Evil or Neutral, as those are all rather grey concepts. Its about being Exalted, which is explicitely described in BoED. If you aren't Exalted, you can't have Exalted feats, and being a LN(E) Inquistor you CAN'T be Exalted.

Its like saying you want to be a Red-butted Babboon, but you don't want to have a red butt. It just doesn't work that way. You can be any other type of Babboon, but in order to be a Red-butted Babboon, you need to have a red butt. If you want to take and retain Exalted feats, you need to be an Exalted character, which doesn't fit the LN(E) Inquisitor type.

[Leewei]

Mind-affecting effects such as charm person, suggestion or dominate person all bring out the worst in ethics-obsessed DMs. This will be especially true if you go for exalted options. I'd certainly suggest feeling out your DM on issues of morality and alignment.

Having said that, I think it's reasonable to use these effects as a decent alternative to violence. "Throw down your arms and surrender!" is arguably a "good" application of mind control given that it is short, merely annoying to the affected creature(s), and results in minimal harm. The BoVD claiming that all mind control is laughable, considering how many good creatures and outsiders use mind-affecting effects as Sp or Su abilities.

[Hal]

As far as PrCs go, it depends on how long you plan to play. If you're going to make it to 20, I might go straight Beguiler, as they automatically overcome spell resistance as a capstone ability.

[metagaia]

Bear in mind that the Vow of nonviolence and the vow of peace severely crimp the style of your other party members. They will not be able to kill anybody even accidentally or they take a penalty and you may even lose your feats if you were not seen as taking enough action to prevent it. It will end up turning you into a version of the arcane stupid paladin

You will also become completely useless in the event that a creature is warded against mind affecting spells, being good just for a haste spell that you could have cast anyway.

I guess you could take the vow of Poverty, beguilers don't need equipment, though it does hurt them, though at least then you don't directly hinder other party members.

[Draz74]

Note that you can't be Good -- let alone Exalted -- and take that Mindbender dip people have been recommending.

[UserClone]

Nonviolence says nothing about your party members being unable to kill foes who are attacking - only helpless foes, and Peace mentions nothing at all on the subject. If anything, this only weakens the effectiveness of Save-or-Suck casters, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[wadledo]

Note that you can't be Good -- let alone Exalted -- and take that Mindbender dip people have been recommending.

Start off as LN, get PrC level, get vows.
Bada bing, bada boom.

Also, no Vow of Poverty.
Other vows are fine if you don't mind making things difficult for the other players, but VoP is only good for druids, Unarmed Swordsages, and MoI.

[Sinfire Titan]

Start off as LN, get PrC level, get vows.
Bada bing, bada boom.

Also, no Vow of Poverty.
Other vows are fine if you don't mind making things difficult for the other players, but VoP is only good for druids, Unarmed Swordsages, and MoI.

Unarmed Swordsages can still wear Light armor, so Mithral Breastplate is still superior to VoP for one. And the only class in the MoI that gets major benefits from VoP is the Totemist, due to how easily they can enter Apostle of Peace and Sapphire Hierarch. Incarnates can use it, but get very little they couldn't get through cash.

[wadledo]

Unarmed Swordsages can still wear Light armor, so Mithral Breastplate is still superior to VoP for one. And the only class in the MoI that gets major benefits from VoP is the Totemist, due to how easily they can enter Apostle of Peace and Sapphire Hierarch. Incarnates can use it, but get very little they couldn't get through cash.

To get the unarmed damage, they sacrifice light armor proficiency.
And VoP Incarnate is still better than VoP Beguiler.

[MeklorIlavator]

Of course, make a Mithral Chain Shirt, and it doesn't matter(you might need the nimble enhancement, but that should be it).

[Curmudgeon]

Unarmed Swordsages can still wear Light armor, so Mithral Breastplate is still superior to VoP for one.

That depends. Are you just going unarmed, or are you using the ToB adaptation?

ADAPTATION
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.

Swordsages are proficient with simple weapons, which includes unarmed strikes. If you focus on Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and/or Tiger Claw disciplines, unarmed strike is on the associated weapon list of all of these; you gain the Weapon Focus feat for all associated weapons of your discipline(s). So you don't have to use the unarmed adaptation to fight unarmed (though your base damage will be poor unless you find some other way of boosting it), and choosing that route will still allow you to wear light armor.

[Curmudgeon]

Of course, make a Mithral Chain Shirt, and it doesn't matter(you might need the nimble enhancement, but that should be it).

Sorry, the technique that works for spellcasters fails absolutely for Monks and Unarmed Swordsages.

Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

The ACP is reduced to 0 by mithral, so the non-proficiency of the armor doesn't cause ACP problems, but that's not the issue. ASF is reduced to 10% by mithral, and can be reduced to 0% if you also add the twilight enhancement, but that, too isn't the issue. The maximum DEX bonus is boosted to 6 my mithral, and to 8 if the armor also has nimbleness, but that's not an issue except for very high DEX characters.

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield.

ADAPTATION
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light

No, the issue is that wearing any type of armor will ruin the AC Bonus class feature of the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation. Light armor made from mithral still counts as light armor, not no armor. This disqualifies the Swordsage from getting their AC Bonus.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No, the issue is that wearing any type of armor will ruin the AC Bonus class feature of the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation. Light armor made from mithral still counts as light armor, not no armor. This disqualifies the Swordsage from getting their AC Bonus.

Actually, the Swordsage doesn't get the AC bonus unless he's in Light Armor. He needs the Mithral Chain Shirt to get the Wis bonus, even if he doesn't have proficiency. Completely not RAI, but RAW. If only WotC had ever published errata for the later 3.5 books.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, the Swordsage doesn't get the AC bonus unless he's in Light Armor.

While they could have been more explicit, I think it's relatively clear that by removing the light armor proficiency in the aim of making a "Monklike" character, the intent was to use the Monk version of AC Bonus instead of the standard Swordsage AC Bonus.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

While they could have been more explicit, I think it's relatively clear that by removing the light armor proficiency in the aim of making a "Monklike" character, the intent was to use the Monk version of AC Bonus instead of the standard Swordsage AC Bonus.

Note the mention of RaI and RaW in my post.

[wadledo]

Actually, the Swordsage doesn't get the AC bonus unless he's in Light Armor. He needs the Mithral Chain Shirt to get the Wis bonus, even if he doesn't have proficiency. Completely not RAI, but RAW. If only WotC had ever published errata for the later 3.5 books.

They did.
Only semi-official, but better than nothing.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Yea, but there is a difference between Good and Exalted. If your character is Exalted, and meerly acts Good, you will fall and lose your Exalted status and all the perks with it.

yes and if actions at best case neutral, its not even acting good.

[ivendale]

Seriosly if you want to be a bigiuler just be a scorsoror with a level in rouge.

[Thurbane]

Seriosly if you want to be a bigiuler just be a scorsoror with a level in rouge.

You're kidding, right?

That's like saying if you want to be a crusader, just be a fighter with a level in paladin.

[Malacode]

I find Vows' work better with Cohorts and DMPC's than PC's. PC's can too-easily lose them, then they're stuck behind everyone else. A Vow of Poverty on a Barbarian or Monk cohort costs nothing, as their magic items aren't gonna be that great and the money saved goes towards religions/orphanages/general causes that I'm sure will find a way to pay the party back (If the DM is that kind of person). Losing the benefits of a VoP on a Cohort doesn't hurt as much, either.

[AslanCross]

Seriosly if you want to be a bigiuler just be a scorsoror with a level in rouge.

The Beguiler has a very good spell list, and knows all of the spells. The sorcerer is limited to a select few. Also, the Beguiler gains way more skill points and also gets bonuses for casting while the target is unaware. What Thurbane says is correct.

[Paul H]

Hi

I love Beguilers - they can get parties out of so much trouble - Mass Whelm, etc. They do have at least one damaging spell - Legion of Sentinels. Though only AoO, it's still lethal damage.

As to Prc's how about Rainbow Servant? Usefulness depends on the GM's take on the 'Full spell progression' debate.

Cheers
Paul H

[Leewei]

Beguiler 20:
- Larger spell list.
- Ignore SR on opponents denied dexterity bonus.
- +2 DC on spells cast on opponents denied dexterity bonus.
- Glibness spell access for a +30 bonus to Bluff.
- Silence and zone of silence for general sneakiness.
- Int+6 skill ranks per level with an Int casting stat, resulting in a very strong role as skill monkey.
- Bonus feats of Still Spell and Silent Spell.
- Able to cast in light armor.
- d6 HD; expect 19 HP more than Rogue / Sorcerer build.

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 19:
- 1d6 Sneak Attack damage.
- Smaller personal list (two 9th level spells known).
- Greater flexibility in spell selection, including limited wish and wish.
- Loss of one caster level.
- Two fewer level 9 spells per day.
- Familiar.
- Int+2 skill ranks per level (Int+8 x4 assuming 1st level Rogue).


Leaving the notion of which is a better build aside, these two have fairly different capabilities. In general, the Beguiler will be far better at being sneaky, and will get far more benefit from it than the Sorcerogue.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Beguiler 20:
- Larger spell list.
- Ignore SR on opponents denied dexterity bonus.
- +2 DC on spells cast on opponents denied dexterity bonus.
- Glibness spell access for a +30 bonus to Bluff.
- Silence and zone of silence for general sneakiness.
- Int+6 skill ranks per level with an Int casting stat, resulting in a very strong role as skill monkey.
- Bonus feats of Still Spell and Silent Spell.
- Able to cast in light armor.
- d6 HD; expect 19 HP more than Rogue / Sorcerer build.

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 19:
- 1d6 Sneak Attack damage.
- Smaller personal list (two 9th level spells known).
- Greater flexibility in spell selection, including limited wish and wish.
- Loss of one caster level.
- Two fewer level 9 spells per day.
- Familiar.
- Int+2 skill ranks per level (Int+8 x4 assuming 1st level Rogue).


Leaving the notion of which is a better build aside, these two have fairly different capabilities. In general, the Beguiler will be far better at being sneaky, and will get far more benefit from it than the Sorcerogue.

but to be fair tothe sorc rogue he could go into a few good prcs like spellwarp sniper, arcane trickster and/or unseen seer.

[quiet1mi]

cool thanks for the help... I look foreword to crushing the opposition with my LN Beguiler... Only one thing vexes me... How do I fight a Beholder?