[3.5] What Would You Do With Him? (Help Me) (Optimization Challenge?)

[LordZarth]

EDIT: Starting to rebuild. New help welcomed but not needed.

EDIT: 2nd Page, new question--Dragonfire Inspiration and Inspire Courage

Alright, so I have a character that I consider very fun to play.
He's good. But he also kind of sucks in some ways.

Heian 'Badger' Daergel, Half-Gnome (Homebrew) Level 4 Bard

STR 5 (the problem), DEX 13, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 11, CHA 18

Half-Gnome (Elf/Gnome) traits:

Spoiler

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* EDIT: Small Size
* Half-Gnomes treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons (as Gnomes)
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. (as Gnomes)
* Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells (as Gnomes)
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (as Gnomes)
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (as Gnomes)
* +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. (as Gnomes, as Elves)
* +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. (as Gnomes)
* Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals, dancing lights, ghost sound, OR prestidigitation. (modified Gnomes)
* Favored Class: Bard. (as Gnomes)
* Immunity to sleep spells, +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells (as Elves)
* +1 racial bonus Search and Spot checks. (as Half-Elves)
* +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (as Half-Elves)
* Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. (as Half-Elves)

WWYD? Obviously, 18 CHA is an asset, and this little guy is the unacknowledged, unofficial, yet de facto party leader, as well as party spokesman. He makes most of the plans and such, and is pretty cool.

But--fights? I mean, I can help the party with music, but I think that I should have some form of attack. With 5 STR, melee seems to be right out (to me. I'm not very experienced) but ranged also takes a penalty (I think).

What should I do, combatwise? Should I multiclass? Should I buy items? Should I [fill in]?

I'm really not very experienced at D&D at all. So-advise ANYTHING. Even if I just ruled it out.

Thanks.

EDIT: VIRTUALLY ANY SOURCE

[kamikasei]

I assume you've been playing the guy already, so there are limits on what you can change. How much rebuilding can you do, and what exactly have you currently got in the way of feats, skills, gear etc.?

What sources are available to you?

There's a feat in Frostburn that lets you add your charisma bonus to damage rolls, but that -3 strength penalty is going to hurt your to-hit. You could just go with staying invisible through a fight, using illusions and music to buff your allies and shape the combat.

[AmberVael]

Well, while bows and thrown weapons would suffer from lower strength, a crossbow does not, and uses your dexterity bonus to attack. Will you be amazing? No, but it IS a weapon you can use.

You attack bonus would be +5 [+3 (bab) +1 (dex) +1 (size)]
Depending on whether you used a light or heavy crossbow, you'd either deal 1d8 or 1d10 damage each shot. Nothing spectacular, but hey, it works.

The other thing you've overlooked is spells. You're not going to be as great as the wizard or cleric, but a well placed illusion, charm, or other handy Bard spell will definitely contribute to combat.

[LordZarth]

I assume you've been playing the guy already, so there are limits on what you can change. How much rebuilding can you do, and what exactly have you currently got in the way of feats, skills, gear etc.?

Mmm. Well, suggest anything--long-term is good too--as this game is fairly casual. As for skills, off the top of my head I've maxed Diplomacy and Perform. I have both synergies to Diplomacy. Rebuilding will probably work. Especially, level 4 can be ENTIRELY rebuilt, as we're leveling between sessions.

What sources are available to you?

There's a feat in Frostburn that lets you add your charisma bonus to damage rolls, but that -3 strength penalty is going to hurt your to-hit. You could just go with staying invisible through a fight, using illusions and music to buff your allies and shape the combat.

Basically any source.

Frostburn? I'll take a look, thanks. What's it called?

Invisible, illusions, buffing? Ok. Should I multiclass to another caster class?

[Prometheus]

Using either ranged attacks or magic are ways to "attack" without actually using Str. Since you are a level 4 bard, you'll get spells along the way and if you need to attack, use a wand or a bow.

You may have discovered a problem with carrying all that you wish to carry. Invest in a bag of holding/handy haversack as soon as you have the opportunity to do so. In the meantime, maybe you can have a Wizard friend cast Tensor's Floating Disk to carry the stuff around when needed.

These boards can tell you how to optimize any class to make it the most powerful it can be. I'm not sure how much of that kind of thing you are really interested in, but if you are, than the thread will need to know what books your character is allowed to draw from for feats/spells/prestige classes. I'm not really good at that kind of stuff, so I'll rely on someone else to take it from here.

[LordZarth]

Well, while bows and thrown weapons would suffer from lower strength, a crossbow does not, and uses your dexterity bonus to attack. Will you be amazing? No, but it IS a weapon you can use.

I'll take a look.

You attack bonus would be +5 [+3 (bab) +1 (dex) +1 (size)]
Depending on whether you used a light or heavy crossbow, you'd either deal 1d8 or 1d10 damage each shot. Nothing spectacular, but hey, it works.

I am small, yes. Forgot to mention.

The other thing you've overlooked is spells. You're not going to be as great as the wizard or cleric, but a well placed illusion, charm, or other handy Bard spell will definitely contribute to combat.

Any suggestions? Sources immaterial.

[LordZarth]

Using either ranged attacks or magic are ways to "attack" without actually using Str. Since you are a level 4 bard, you'll get spells along the way and if you need to attack, use a wand or a bow.

I'm fairly certain that most bows do take a STR penalty. Crossbows were mentioned, though. What spells do you recommend?

You may have discovered a problem with carrying all that you wish to carry. Invest in a bag of holding/handy haversack as soon as you have the opportunity to do so. In the meantime, maybe you can have a Wizard friend cast Tensor's Floating Disk to carry the stuff around when needed.

God, yes. 12lb as a light load. Thank you so much! I never thought of a bag of holding/handy haversack! I've been using my dwarf friend to carry some stuff, but it's very annoying, and doesn't work in battle.

These boards can tell you how to optimize any class to make it the most powerful it can be. I'm not sure how much of that kind of thing you are really interested in, but if you are, than the thread will need to know what books your character is allowed to draw from for feats/spells/prestige classes. I'm not really good at that kind of stuff, so I'll rely on someone else to take it from here.

I would be interested in that. I might not use it all, but it would be probably very useful. Again, sources immaterial.

[AmberVael]

Well, Sleep is a great spell. If you're the type who can think the right way, Silent Image is really good (though this also depends on the DM. I saw someone who got away with blindfolding entire parties with a single Silent Image spell, and I found that horribly questionable). Grease can be used to control the battlefield, but it has to be used in the right situations.
Glitterdust is very useful.

[Eldariel]

Well, with those stats, I'd go with Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings] and Haunting Melody [Eberron Campaign Settings] to get the most out of your songs. Out of singing, your spells are indeed solid, and a Bow of some variety would allow you to do something with your excess actions when not singing or casting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, this is not a bad character build, although the not-stellar Dex prevents it from being truly awsome.

My suggestion: Why bother with attacking? Here's what I'd do:

1: Start picking up spells that are buffs

2) Look up War Weaver from Heroes of Battle

3) When you qualify, take all 5 levels of War Weaver, and buff your friends enormously.

Seriously, when you can drop down Freedom of Movement, Heroism, Greater Invisibility, and Cat's Grace as a MOVE action, then drop down Haste as your standard action at the beginning of combat... suddenly the party gets much nastier.

Even better, if you go grab Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine, which gives you access to a domain, pick up the Repose domain, and pick up Death Ward to slap in the Weave instead of Cat's Grace.

Your party is now immune to most of the shut-down and auto-kill spells in the game.

Also, check out the Marshall class from the Miniatures Handbook. It's got Cha to Stuff all over the place.

Enjoy.

[LordZarth]

Well, Sleep is a great spell. If you're the type who can think the right way, Silent Image is really good (though this also depends on the DM. I saw someone who got away with blindfolding entire parties with a single Silent Image spell, and I found that horribly questionable). Grease can be used to control the battlefield, but it has to be used in the right situations.
Glitterdust is very useful.

What exactly could I do with Silent Image? Assume idiocy/inexperience here.

Sleep! I will use that. Glitterdust--looks useful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's fairly easy to boost up your Inspire Courage so much that your allies do obscene amounts of extra damage. Get the feats Dragontouched and Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic, Song of the Heart from ECS, Words of Creation from BoED, some Badges of Valor from MIC Regalia of the Hero item set, cast Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium... A level 3 Bard with two flaws will be granting his allies +7d4 fire damage on every attack they make.

If you count as both a Gnome and a Half-Elf, get the Half Elf Bard racial substitution levels 1 and 8 from Races of Destiny, and the Gnome Bard racial substitution level at 6 from Races of Stone.

Check out this guide for other useful tips on making a decent bard. You could even go into Crusader or Warblade with the Song of the White Raven feat and Weapon Finesse and be a superb melee combatant.

Edit: Polymorph can make you a decent melee combatant. Max out UMD and get a Wand.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What exactly could I do with Silent Image? Assume idiocy/inexperience here.

Sleep! I will use that. Glitterdust--looks useful.

What can't you do with Silent Image?

1) Create the illusion of a solid floor over a pit for oponents to fall through

2) Dress like a wizard. Cast spell, being very blatant and obvious about your incantations. Silent Image an appropriately sized dragon. Say something like "Now, my summoned minion... KILL THEM ALL".

3) An illusion of a door where there is no door is always good for laughs

4) Create an illusion of a Sphere of Ahniliation. Move it over by them, then curse loudly and say "Don't know... how much longer... I can contain this..."

[LordZarth]

Honestly, this is not a bad character build, although the not-stellar Dex prevents it from being truly awsome.

My suggestion: Why bother with attacking? Here's what I'd do:

1: Start picking up spells that are buffs

2) Look up War Weaver from Heroes of Battle

3) When you qualify, take all 5 levels of War Weaver, and buff your friends enormously.

Seriously, when you can drop down Freedom of Movement, Heroism, Greater Invisibility, and Cat's Grace as a MOVE action, then drop down Haste as your standard action at the beginning of combat... suddenly the party gets much nastier.

Even better, if you go grab Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine, which gives you access to a domain, pick up the Repose domain, and pick up Death Ward to slap in the Weave instead of Cat's Grace.

Your party is now immune to most of the shut-down and auto-kill spells in the game.

Also, check out the Marshall class from the Miniatures Handbook. It's got Cha to Stuff all over the place.

Enjoy.

Thanks! Will take a look.

[LordZarth]

Also, check out the Marshall class from the Miniatures Handbook. It's got Cha to Stuff all over the place.

Found Marshall, couldn't find Cha to Stuff. What exactly do you mean?

[Eldariel]

Oh yeah, I forgot - you've got Use Magic Device maxed, right? You can just get any Wands you'd be interested in and go to town when out of other stuff to do. Wand of Seeking Ray is a fine way to spend your actions, for example, if a bit expensive on those levels. Wand of Grease too.

[LordZarth]

<snip> A level 3 Bard with two flaws will be granting his allies +7d4 fire damage on every attack they make.<snip>

*jaw drops*

Thanks!

[AmberVael]

Silent image is pretty much just trickery. Anything you can do with making one thing appear as something else? Silent Image. Sometimes it can be difficult though.

Illusions and other magical trickery can be really fun. I still remember when I convinced a lower level group of enemies that my Dancing Lights were will'o'wisps.
"Kill them!"
Took out three enemies with a cantrip. Priceless.

[Telonius]

There are some suggestions here for what to do with a low physical stat character. Not all of it will apply, but Snowflake Wardance (from Frostburn) was mentioned. Playswithfire in particular has a build that incorporates Bard levels with other classes and PrC's from several different sources. My own build there is charisma-focused, but based around the Oriental Adventures Samurai class rather than Bard. (And the Lawful requirement unfortunately prevents you from using it regardless).

Also, what feats do you already have?

Without getting into crazy multiclassing, there's really nothing stopping you from taking Weapon Finesse. Bards are proficient with the Rapier, which is finesse-able. Your DM might allow you to retrain to get it; if not, take it at level 6.

Feat suggestions:
Bard 1 - Whatever you have.
Bard 3 - Weapon Finesse
Bard 6 - Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn)
Bard 9 - Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)

If you can get your INT up to 15, the Words of Creation feat from Book of Exalted Deeds is very nice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sleep is worthless, look at the casting time. Color Spray is much better.

An illusion of a floor, an illusion of a pit, an illusion of a wall or fence or spiked barricade... A Bard can make a decent Shadowcraft Mage, though it's not as good as Beguiler or any other class that gets higher level spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Found Marshall, couldn't find Cha to Stuff. What exactly do you mean?

All of the lesser auras are ' add your charisma to x' for the entire party.

[LordZarth]

/am fail.

Didn't realise UMD was class skill! Will profit.

[LordZarth]

Thanks so much so far!

Did not fully appreciate the awesomeness of this board. The only problem is by the time you're all done (thanks again) I'll have about 50 different bard builds!

Thank you. Keep going if you like ;)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, my suggestion was based on the fact that your character's physical stats aren't all that good, and you want to help the party.

Warblade... nah, if anything Swordsage. That lets you pick up a Shadow Hand stance (there's a very handy 1st level one that gives concealment whenever you move more than 10'), so you can grab Shadow Blade, which lets you use your Dex mod to damage rather than your Str mod. Then just pick up Weapon Finesse, and you're set!

Unfortunately, the stats aren't forgiving for a Warblade/Song of the White Raven build, because he still has to deal with the 5 str stat.

[Telonius]

Sleep is worthless, look at the casting time. Color Spray is much better.

Unfortunately Color Spray is not a Bard spell. Though it really should be...

[LordZarth]

Abbreviation: CM. What book is this?

[LordZarth]

Well, my suggestion was based on the fact that your character's physical stats aren't all that good, and you want to help the party.

Warblade... nah, if anything Swordsage. That lets you pick up a Shadow Hand stance (there's a very handy 1st level one that gives concealment whenever you move more than 10'), so you can grab Shadow Blade, which lets you use your Dex mod to damage rather than your Str mod. Then just pick up Weapon Finesse, and you're set!

Unfortunately, the stats aren't forgiving for a Warblade/Song of the White Raven build, because he still has to deal with the 5 str stat.

Thanks, I see what you mean.

[Eldariel]

Complete Mage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unfortunately, the stats aren't forgiving for a Warblade/Song of the White Raven build, because he still has to deal with the 5 str stat.

Weapon Finesse works just as well for a Warblade as it does for a Swordsage. So what if he gets -3 damage from Str if he's getting +7d4 fire damage from Dragonfire Inspiration. All that really matters at that point is if he can hit. A two-level dip into Unarmed Swordsage would still be amazing with Ascetic Mage, to get his Cha bonus to AC in light armor.

Abbreviation: CM. What book is this?

Complete Mage

[LordZarth]

I do not have access to CM! Can anyone give me the stats for the Melodic Casting feat? (Is that illegal? I think it's OK, right?)