[3.5] Fix Starvation!

[Neek]

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

So we see the problem: Starvation can never kill you. Can never take a life, because a person cannot be killed by starvation or thirst, as non-lethal damage cannot take you down. How do you suggest we patch this?

[RTGoodman]

Well, it could be as simple as an addition to the end of the rules:


If non-lethal damage due to starvation or thirst ever renders you unconscious, you must make a Fortitude save with the same DC as the last one you made to avoid the non-lethal damage. If you succeed on the save, you are still unconscious but stable. If you fail the save, you die.


If that's too deadly, you could add in that you have twelve or twenty-four hours of unconsciousness to see if someone saves you before you have to make the save.

[Neek]

How about constitution damage? If you're suffering from starvation, and you eat, suddenly you're okay--your body devouring your bones and internal organs for nutrients should have some effect. And it takes time for that to heal.

It would make an interesting pitfall: you have to make a con-check every day to see if you take Constitution damage, and each day, your check gets worse and worse. Might be better to have a base DC 15, failing the throw causes 1d3 Con damage. I think that's reasonable.

[RTGoodman]

How about constitution damage? If you're suffering from starvation, and you eat, suddenly you're okay--your body devouring your bones and internal organs for nutrients should have some effect. And it takes time for that to heal.

It would make an interesting pitfall: you have to make a con-check every day to see if you take Constitution damage, and each day, your check gets worse and worse. Might be better to have a base DC 15, failing the throw causes 1d3 Con damage. I think that's reasonable.

Yeah, that could work - I've seen ability damage so little in games I've played (we're usually below 5th level) that I never think of it. And it's probably a more elegant system that my original "Fort save or DIE" one.

For the Con damage, would that be instead of the 1d6 non-lethal, or alongside it? If it's alongside, I think that's probably be a pretty good system (which you could decrease to 1d2 or just 1 if it was too deadly). If it's instead, I'd just make sure to include the Fatigue along with it, since I think that's pretty appropriate, and keep it at 1d3.

[Vic_Sage]

People actually use Starvation?

[Inyssius Tor]

Obviously not as written, if no one on the internet noticed this 'til now.

[Neek]

It's been known, but no one has ever been arsed to fix it.

And 1d3 Con damage + Fatigued works great. No non-lethal damage. It's not an effect that should not scale based around hit points, but by Fortitude saves alone.

At least, that's the way I think it should be.

If anyone has a fix, please let me know. :P

[Demented]

Non-lethal damage past your maximum hitpoints -> Lethal damage.

[Neek]

Non-lethal damage past your maximum hitpoints -> Lethal damage.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

Non-lethal damage is not deducted from your hit point total. So... I'm curious. Where does it say that it does?

[Demented]

It's not how it actually works, just a proposed fix. I couldn't be bothered to look up Cold/Heat damage to see how they do it, but I figured lethal damage once you have nonlethal equal to your max hitpoints is a good balance.

[Neek]

It's not how it actually works, just a proposed fix. I couldn't be bothered to look up Cold/Heat damage to see how they do it, but I figured lethal damage once you have nonlethal equal to your max hitpoints is a good balance.

Which I wouldn't disagree with. I thought you were saying it as matter-of-fact, not as a conjecture. It would make sense, as people can get killed by being pummeled to death. Even if it you have no skill with your knuckles, you can still kill someone with your fists.

As for hot and cold. Cold states that you start taking lethal damage past -20 degrees, otherwise it's non-lethal. It's impossible to freeze to death at freezing temperatures, because hypothermia and frostbite are simply treated as fatigue. And fatigue itself cannot kill you.

Hot temperatures states something similar: it's non-lethal from 90 to 109, and 110 degrees starts causing lethal damage. But if you're unconscious in 90-110 degree weather, you start taking 1d4 points per hour (which means that, technically, falling asleep in 90+ degree weather can kill an ordinary person, but this isn't true. I've slept in 96 degree weather before, and I sure as hell am still alive.

[thevorpalbunny]

I was under the impression that after you were unconscious, nonlethal damage was converted to lethal damage. If that's not the case, it should be.

[ericgrau]

It takes a couple months or so to die of starvation. This may be why they never bothered. It's way too rare to ever happen. Just compare that to the problems you face after 3 days. If you get that far then you can't adventure anyway, so it's pretty moot. You basically become someone waiting to rescued; and no matter how late that comes (short of death), you can make a full recovery. I'd just leave it to the DM in the rare case that it ever hits 2-3 months or so.

Lethal damage after you fall unconcious would be way too fast.

[Demented]

As for hot and cold. Cold states that you start taking lethal damage past -20 degrees, otherwise it's non-lethal. It's impossible to freeze to death at freezing temperatures, because hypothermia and frostbite are simply treated as fatigue. And fatigue itself cannot kill you.

You had to make me go look it up in the SRD, didn't you?

Cold and exposure deal nonlethal damage to the victim. This nonlethal damage cannot be recovered until the character gets out of the cold and warms up again. Once a character is rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the cold and exposure begins to deal lethal damage at the same rate.

[newbDM]

So we see the problem: Starvation can never kill you. Can never take a life, because a person cannot be killed by starvation or thirst, as non-lethal damage cannot take you down. How do you suggest we patch this?

Thank you for pointing this out!

I did not know there were core rules for dehydration and starvation, but now I can have some fun as a DM with this.

Also, I will now ask at each gaming session to see the players' character sheets, to secretly see the current rations. Since players often completely ignore this, they will be surprised when suddenly the entire party falls over.

[Ascension]

With no warnings given about those ominous rumblings in their empty stomachs? That's just mean!

[Waspinator]

To make this realistic, you should probably look up statistics on how long it takes the average person to die from lack of food and/or water and try to make it so that someone with 10s across the board for stats would take about that long to die.

[newbDM]

With no warnings given about those ominous rumblings in their empty stomachs? That's just mean!

Rumblings in their tummies you say?


But how do you expect them to learn their lessons?

[Zeful]

To make this realistic, you should probably look up statistics on how long it takes the average person to die from lack of food and/or water and try to make it so that someone with 10s across the board for stats would take about that long to die.

I think it's the whole Threes thing taught in schools. 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food

[RTGoodman]

I think it's the whole Threes thing taught in schools. 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food

Yep, that's what I've always heard.

I think the 1d3 Con damage after the first three days, plus Fatigue, works fine for that. I'm not gonna do the exact math, but you figure 21 days, minus the first three, leaves you with 18 days. If you assume average Con damage (1d3 -> 2 damage) and assume that they only make the save half of the time (on average), that means that (surprise) someone with an 18 will probably need the full time to die of starvation. Some people with a lower Con might get a little luckier and survive slightly longer, or some with an 18 or higher Con might keel over earlier if they're unlucky, but on average I think it works.

For dying of thirst, I imagine it'd work out almost the same there, too. One day + (Con mod.) hours before anything happens, and then an average of 1 Con damage per hour (like the above formula) means a person with an 18 Con is likely to die about halfway through their third day without water (which is what we expect because the Threes rule).

[Zeful]

Yep, that's what I've always heard.

I think the 1d3 Con damage after the first three days, plus Fatigue, works fine for that. I'm not gonna do the exact math, but you figure 21 days, minus the first three, leaves you with 18 days. If you assume average Con damage (1d3 -> 2 damage) and assume that they only make the save half of the time (on average), that means that (surprise) someone with an 18 will probably need the full time to die of starvation. Some people with a lower Con might get a little luckier and survive slightly longer, or some with an 18 or higher Con might keel over earlier if they're unlucky, but on average I think it works.

For dying of thirst, I imagine it'd work out almost the same there, too. One day + (Con mod.) hours before anything happens, and then an average of 1 Con damage per hour (like the above formula) means a person with an 18 Con is likely to die about halfway through their third day without water (which is what we expect because the Threes rule).

So a first level Commoner with 18 con would need to make 36 fort checks, so one every 12 hours (or half day if the planet isn't 24 hours) without food? With a +4 bonus, the DC would be roughly 15 ish. This leads to 20th level fighters going months without food before succumbing (If you include the cumulative +1 for every succeeded save). Which is suitably epic. The whole "I have walked from the depths of hell itself, to mete out your distruction." kind of deal.

[RTGoodman]

So a first level Commoner with 18 con would need to make 36 fort checks, so one every 12 hours (or half day if the planet isn't 24 hours) without food? With a +4 bonus, the DC would be roughly 15 ish.

Well, lets see. A first level Commoner with 18 Con (let's call him Steve) would start seeing the effects of Thirst 18 hours into Day Two without water. Every hour after that, he makes a Fort save (with a +4 bonus), which starts at DC 10 and increases by 1 each hour. I don't know what math you'd do to figure out how much Con damage he takes during that time, but after 14 more hours the DC is so high (DC 24) that he won't EVER be able to make it, so he'd DEFINITELY die after an average of 9 more hours (2 damage an hour for 9 hours).

For starvation, it's about the same, but with day instead of hours. He'd be able to last three days fine, and then UP TO two weeks before he starts auto-failing.

Both of those, of course, don't take into effect that he's PROBABLY going to take at least a little Con damage during the time before the auto-failing starts. Also, he's Fatigued at least, and if he's both thirsty AND starving he'll be Exhausted instead (since fatigue effects sort of stack).

This leads to 20th level fighters going months without food before succumbing (If you include the cumulative +1 for every succeeded save). Which is suitably epic. The whole "I have walked from the depths of hell itself, to mete out your distruction." kind of deal.

Well, it's not +1 for each succeeded save, it's +1 per PREVIOUS save, whether he succeeded or not. So I don't know about MONTHS, but yeah, a level 20 Fighter would last a lot longer.

[Heliomance]

There's no such thing as auto-failing a save. Natural 20s always succeed.

Thank you for pointing this out!

I did not know there were core rules for dehydration and starvation, but now I can have some fun as a DM with this.

Also, I will now ask at each gaming session to see the players' character sheets, to secretly see the current rations. Since players often completely ignore this, they will be surprised when suddenly the entire party falls over.

In that case you should allow someone with a high Survival score to substitute for rations in any sort of natural environment. It's entirely possible to live off the land if you know what you're doing.

[ericgrau]

Thank you for pointing this out!

I did not know there were core rules for dehydration and starvation, but now I can have some fun as a DM with this.

Also, I will now ask at each gaming session to see the players' character sheets, to secretly see the current rations. Since players often completely ignore this, they will be surprised when suddenly the entire party falls over.

I agree, that is cruel. Just tell everyone they're getting hungry, and make them tick of trail rations & water (1/2 gallon to 1 gallon or more if hot; 1 gallon = 8 lbs. = 4 kg = 4 liters) each day. I heartily approve of that method. IMO it makes the game more interesting not less, because of the weight of these things, the limits on travel it causes and the need to find towns or else forage. That and forcing PCs to set up camp, which can be an opportunity in itself. Heck, look up all the environmental dangers, diseases, survival skill rules and heal skill rules for that matter. Send the ranger some love.

[Fishman]

But if you're unconscious in 90-110 degree weather, you start taking 1d4 points per hour (which means that, technically, falling asleep in 90+ degree weather can kill an ordinary person, but this isn't true. I've slept in 96 degree weather before, and I sure as hell am still alive.

Well, for starts, I'm guessing that the rules assume you are not appropriately equipped for the weather conditions involved. Similarly, said cold conditions can be survived indefinitely if one is appropriately equipped. If, on the other hand, you DO decide to try to go to sleep in a fur parka in 96 degree weather, you probably WILL smother yourself to death.

For the most part, though, I doubt people pay much attention to the rules on food or drink much for the same reason that there simply aren't any rules for personal hygiene or bathroom use: This is D&D, not the Sims.

[Baron Corm]

When I make a character, I assume the DM is ignoring rations, so I don't bother to buy them. It's not that my character is an idiot and wants to go without food, it's just that as a player I don't think we're keeping track. So neglecting to tell your players ahead of time that you will be keeping track is not really fair to their characters and breaks RP.

[Prometheus]

The Rule of Three: Three minutes without air, three days without water, three weeks without food.

Con damage should start when the subject falls unconscious could take damage at the rate of 2 per day.

A Commoner with Con of 10 has about a 50% chance of dying in 9 days, a 25% of dying in 10 days etc etc

A level 5 Barbarian with a Con of 18 (4d12+32 hp) has about a 25% chance of dying in 30 days and it gets longer from there.

Of course, the real fix to Starvation in PCs is to remove/nerf Create Food & Water, Purify Food & Water, Goodberry, Heroes Feast, and rings of Sustenance

[thevorpalbunny]

Why do you want them to starve? This is making death by starvation possible, not likely.

[Neek]

Why do you want them to starve? This is making death by starvation possible, not likely.

DMs love imposing challenges to characters on varying levels. This can range from bludgeoning them to death with mobs, complex traps, nickel and dimeing them to death, and of course, starving them or exposing them to the extremes.

This makes it possible, as opposed to impossible.

The Rule of Three: Three minutes without air, three days without water, three weeks without food.

Con damage should start when the subject falls unconscious could take damage at the rate of 2 per day.

A Commoner with Con of 10 has about a 50% chance of dying in 9 days, a 25% of dying in 10 days etc etc

A level 5 Barbarian with a Con of 18 (4d12+32 hp) has about a 25% chance of dying in 30 days and it gets longer from there.

Of course, the real fix to Starvation in PCs is to remove/nerf Create Food & Water, Purify Food & Water, Goodberry, Heroes Feast, and rings of Sustenance

I don't think that nerfing food spells is a good idea. There's a reason they exist. Not having your god grant you such spells would be interesting... (also, don't hand out Ring of Sustenance. Lord knows in all my campaigning did we ever see one).

Let me check the facts.

• A level 1 Commoner with an average Con (10) will have a +0 Fortitude save and 4 hit points if we maximize his first level hit die. He can last 3 days without food, and after that, he has to make a DC 11 Fortitude save. He has a 45% chance of making it after the fourth day, the fifth 40%, and so on until he gets to 5% (where the DC is 20) at 13 days. That's a little less than two weeks with luck involved. Failure will drop on average by 3 non-lethal damage, so he can last one to two days on failure... yeah.
• Were he harder with a Con 18, he would have on the fourth day, he would have a +4 on his Fortitude save and 8 hp; that means he has to roll 7 or higher to pass his save on the first day (65% chance of survival). He can last 16 days... up to 3 days with repeated failure on average.

So much for the three week rule.

• Now, if we have 1d3 Con damage, then on average 1.5 Con damage per day. If the we just assume a flat DC 10 (your chances will get worse with each two to four days), then after 13 days, he has a 5% chance of survival for each day after. Once he starts taking damage, he can go on average a little less than a week after that.

So 3 weeks. Right there.

This method I prefer because it's more cinematic. You suffer painfully while you starve to death, not reflected in abstract hit points, but by an attrition of your Constitution. Fatigue will make you weaker while your body consumes itself. However, you last MUCH longer than the other system, which can kill an average human off in less than two weeks if he's lucky, and only four if he's unlucky. I've never seen a person drop after a day of not eating. This also means that characters from all levels suffers--those that are higher level tough it out easier than those that don't, but failure poses the same constraints--afterall, an 18 Con character will last five days longer on average. This I can live with.

[thevorpalbunny]

I was referring to the "get rid of food" spell thing.

Anyway, I like this system muchly. If I had a seal of a approval, I would give you it. As it is, you'll have to settle for a walrus.