[D&D 3.5] Alternative Epic Rules?

[Salvonus]

Hey Playgrounders,

So, I'm running a PbP game and I quickly decided that I want to take my players to the Epic levels. I'll be accelerating level advancement a lot to make up for the slow-moving nature of PbP, so, even though they're start at Level 4, This is simply because I'd like to see them able to challenge the "big 'uns" (for example, a CR 59+ [if I'm calculating it right] Great Wyrm) of my setting before our gracious alien overlords (my masters, obviously) come down and give my soul ultimate cosmic power and divine transcendence. I mean, once that happens, I might not have time to run a PbP game.

Please don't harass me about "ruining the purity of the game" or something by making levels go by fast. At least half of the party have the souls of Gods in them... They're destined to have some pretty bloody epic adventures.

My point of this post is that, well, I kinda find the D&D Epic rules... bland. And kinda broken. But mostly it's just the blandness - half the excitement in gaining a level for me is new class abilities! But... um. Whee. Epic feat. Which are basically either broken or completely flavourless crap.

Now, I'm not trying to raise an argument about Epic rules. Or edition - I'm sticking with 3.5, because I'm comfortable with it, I like it, there's a lot of things I want to use from it, I love some of the homebrew out there, and it's just fun for me, if a little challenging sometimes. But what I do want to know is if anyone out there has devised an alternate way of advancing beyond level 20. Any suggestions are welcome at this point - if I have to, I'll go with the "usual" epic rules, but I'm not immensely pleased with them.

The key should be fun, not "balance".

The simplest idea I had was to just have everything advance past level 20 just like it used to. Y'know, modify the base classes to have more than 20 "normal" levels (didn't Diablo D20 do this?), with BAB, Saves, and all that jazz advancing normally. Homebrew up some fun ability advancement in conjunction with my players. Again, I don't give one whit for what people call balance - I've already abused RAW in a manner which a character from the Book of Erotic Fantasy would adore. I just care about fun...

So, yes, suggestions? What have you Playgrounders done with non-standard Epic advancement?

Oh, and if you interpret this post as having lots of attitude? Well, yes, it does! But it's meant to be fun, playful attitude, so please don't get offended! If you disagree with me, that's fine - I'm just stating my feelings in a way that amuses me! It's all tongue-in-cheek, I promise - good, clean, sassy fun.

Thanks in advance.

(P.S. My players/potential players are totally welcome to post in this thread, but don't think that you can pump me for too much information. )

(P.P.S. If anyone is interested in the game and wants to navigate the UTTER CHAOS OMG of the thread, click here. BEWARE INSANITY AHEAD. ALSO BLATANT RAW ABUSE SEE MY EARLIER COMMENT ABOUT THE BOEF)



Baby Sea Otter says thank you.

[Dreamshifter]

Aw. Cute otter.

What? Epic stuff? Yeah, I got nothing to add there, sorry. But since I am one of the players of said game, I will be keeping track, so please, offer up some good stuffs!

Or not so good stuff, might inspire us anyway, really.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, the Epic Level Handbook is broken as hell, especially considering it's 3.0 (I think).

For lack of something better to do, you could simply let players take more class levels. "I'm a 20th level Druid, I've maxed my casting, time to get some of that sweet Master of Many Forms" is a reasonable thing to do.

So is stopping caster level advancement altogether, since Epic magic is what makes Epic broken. Since casters are overpowered anyways, it's a good chance for them to round off their abilities, especially since normally it can turn into a game of "what about THIS one, does this kill you?" If they take, say, Rogue levels on top of Wizard, they'll make an excellent skill monkey and if they get uppity and you slam down the in-game nerf bat, they're not useless, but you get your point across.

[Cheesegear]

Simply put, just allow more Class Levels. Don't worry about 'Epic' so much. Since once your players hit Level 20, they're almost assuredly to be almost-broken as it is.

Just let your players keep advancing.

Or, just cross out anything you think is broken (like Magic), or don't like. Or, since you're DM, just fiat them some homebrew abilities.

Like once a Desert Wanderer with various caster classes hits level 20/1, you should think about giving him Sandform as an SLA, maybe?

[SurlySeraph]

I agree. Ignore the epic rules and just have them keep gaining class levels as normal. It's less confusing and no less balanced.

As mentioned, epic spellcasting is what makes epic so broken. If you're going to allow epic casting, I recommend this homebrew.

[Dreamshifter]

Simply put, just allow more Class Levels. Don't worry about 'Epic' so much. Since once your players hit Level 20, they're almost assuredly to be almost-broken as it is.

Just let your players keep advancing.

Hard to argue with that, really. And in the end, while it is a simple solution, it only really affects pure casters. Everyone else can just go grab PrCs for nifty abilities, or finish off their base classes (if they already grabbed PrCs). I bet most players wouldn't care until at least the 30s. Maybe longer (though there are limits to how many classes most players will want to finish off).

Sometimes, simple is best.

[Starscream]

I agree with everyone's "take more classes" idea. If you think it's silly for someone to be a Wizard 20 / Rogue 1 you can always just have them pick two classes to begin with and alternate between them. Seeing as you're accelerating the leveling for this campaign, it should go smoothly enough. That way they won't feel lopsided and will not hit the end of their class progression until they hit level 40.

[Salvonus]

Thanks for the suggestions, mates. I'll probably just go with the whole "stacking on more class/PrC levels" thing, since it's the simplest solution. I thought that maybe someone who disliked the blandness of the ELH would have made up some super special awesome homebrew Epic system that I could never even DREAM of, but it appears not.

Now... I have to figure out how to handle epic spellcasting. I'm almost tempted to have real 10th+ level spells, powers, and manoeuvres (not just virtual slots for metamagic), but that is a lot of work. Still... Cool new spells is hardly a "bland" thing, amirite? Makes CL progression still worthwhile, and gives the ToBers some cool stuff too. Homebrewing up an awesome continuation to Dervish might be in the cards too, Dreamshifter.

Ahh, thanks lads (and lasses, if any of you rare breed be out there). I did not learn as much as I might have wished for, but I appreciate your help regardless.

'course, if anyone feels crazzzzzy and goes on an "Alternative Epic" homebrewing binge, FOR <deity>'S SAKE SEND ME A PM.

[Prometheus]

The link to the epic spellcasting rules actually seems pretty good. The only other thing I could recommend is to make spells stop being any deeper, but make them wider. For example, Time Stop that works for allies, Temporal Stasis over a large area, Gate which functions for multiple dimensions simultaneously, etc.

Personally, I think homebrewing beyond 20 progression is the best option for general classes suggested. Perhaps it should be mentioned that the power level of said expansions should still have continuity non-epic classes, so while it might not make sense to stop progressing spellcasting a lot of builds can still find it fun to multiclass.

[Heliomance]

One of my DMs just says there are no epic rules. If you go beyond 20, you continue to use the same progression rules as before. Classes can't be taken beyond 20 levels, you have to multiclass.

[Townopolis]

multiclass.

This. Also, make the game gestalt... triple gestalt.

I mean, what's more fun than being a 20 knight/20 rebalanced paladin//20 sublime marshal/10 Ruby Knight Vindicator/10 Defender of Sealtiel//20 Favored Soul/20 Binder?

[Deth Muncher]

This. Also, make the game gestalt... triple gestalt.

I mean, what's more fun than being a 20 knight/20 rebalanced paladin//20 sublime marshal/10 Ruby Knight Vindicator/10 Defender of Sealtiel//20 Favored Soul/20 Binder?

Wait wait, shouldn't triple gestalt games either be played Wizard20//Cleric20//Druid20 or Monk20//Samurai20//Ninja20?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1) Remove any and all 'Spell Seed' and 'Epic Spellcasting', particularly remove 'epic spell creation'.

2) Continue spellcasting level progression. While there are no spells over 9th level, these higher level spell slots can be used to cast spells which have metamagic feats applied to them that end up with a spell level higher than 9.

3) Allow 'tank' classes (full BAB classes) to have additional iterative attacks, but they have to spend Epic Feats to get them.

[Uncle Festy]

Now... I have to figure out how to handle epic spellcasting. I'm almost tempted to have real 10th+ level spells, powers, and manoeuvres (not just virtual slots for metamagic), but that is a lot of work. Still... Cool new spells is hardly a "bland" thing, amirite? Makes CL progression still worthwhile, and gives the ToBers some cool stuff too.

My name is Uncle Festy, and I approve of this message.
Seriously, I tried doing this back in January, but it never took off. I'd be glad to help out if that plan takes off.

[SurlySeraph]

Now... I have to figure out how to handle epic spellcasting. I'm almost tempted to have real 10th+ level spells, powers, and manoeuvres (not just virtual slots for metamagic), but that is a lot of work. Still... Cool new spells is hardly a "bland" thing, amirite? Makes CL progression still worthwhile, and gives the ToBers some cool stuff too.

You asked for some ToB epic rules?

[Fizban]

You could use 3.5e epic destinies, found here, which replace the normal progression of feats for 21-30 with some PrC/uber feat styled abilities. You'll still get feats from your class progression, but you'll be getting some epic abilities with variety.

Fax also made a Time Lord destiny, and I'm sure there are a few other homebrew destines around here.

[Devils_Advocate]

I think that Dicefreaks tried to work up some Epic (and deity) rules that aren't completely wacky. At least, I know they covered gods, and I think I heard they worked on Epic too.

[Prometheus]

This. Also, make the game gestalt... triple gestalt.

I mean, what's more fun than being a 20 knight/20 rebalanced paladin//20 sublime marshal/10 Ruby Knight Vindicator/10 Defender of Sealtiel//20 Favored Soul/20 Binder?

Oh maybe not ticking off the other Binder and the Crusader/Cleric? Seriously, how many people can you have in that type of game without having everyone able to exactly the same thing?

[Zeful]

You could use 3.5e epic destinies, found here, which replace the normal progression of feats for 21-30 with some PrC/uber feat styled abilities. You'll still get feats from your class progression, but you'll be getting some epic abilities with variety.

Fax also made a Time Lord destiny, and I'm sure there are a few other homebrew destines around here.

Epic Destinies are probably the best idea for what you want to do. It gives them some form of advancement but keeps them more or less away from OMG I RULE EVERYTHING!

[Flickerdart]

Wait wait, shouldn't triple gestalt games either be played Wizard20//Cleric20//Druid20 or Monk20//Samurai20//Ninja20?

Hm, that gives me an idea. A triple-Gestalted Truenamer//Monk//CW Samurai. The most MAD thing in the game, and it still sucks.

[Glimbur]

Epic Destinies are probably the best idea for what you want to do. It gives them some form of advancement but keeps them more or less away from OMG I RULE EVERYTHING!

Don't a lot of the epic destinies give you free True Res's? That's not quite I RULE EVERYTHING but worrisome to me; as it means losing your stuff is incredibly more painful than dying.

[Fizban]

The jump to millions of gp in WBL means that the 25k for True Rez is a pittance anyway, epic characters get revived whenever they need to without level loss. Epic destinies that supply freebies just make it so you don't have to go find a cleric to cast it for you.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

As a fan of god games and very epic games I have a suggestion:

Every 2-3 epic levels, you get a divine rank, with all the mechanical benefits this gives. Cool new divine powers and you don't even have to make them up? Yes, please!

[Zeful]

Don't a lot of the epic destinies give you free True Res's? That's not quite I RULE EVERYTHING but worrisome to me; as it means losing your stuff is incredibly more painful than dying.

More of I'm unkilliable, so no.

[Dreamshifter]

As a fan of god games and very epic games I have a suggestion:

Every 2-3 epic levels, you get a divine rank, with all the mechanical benefits this gives. Cool new divine powers and you don't even have to make them up? Yes, please!

That... could also work. Though I'm not sure how well (if at all) Salvonus is with those particular rules. It would definitely fit for some of the party, certainly.

As for the Epic Destinies... not sure how I feel about those. If there were more, it might be good, but with just the base ones... Never took a close look, though. That's not my job.