Am i reading this right?

[Godna]

My friends who is likes dragons a weebit too much got the draconomicon and inside there was an item called the Ring of Dragon Friendship what it basically does is No dragon will voluntarily attack or otherwise attempt to harm the wearer", though "if the wearer attacks a dragon in anyway, this ring loses its power for 24 hours" so what is to stop someone from walking into a dragons cave and just looting the place right in front of the poor ill begotten son of a whombat while wearing this ring?

[sonofzeal]

....because most dragons worth looting are hyper-intelligent spellcasters, who are liable to be equally underhanded.

For example,what prevents them from simply cupping two claw-hands over your friend until he agrees to hand over the ring?

[Godna]

wouldnt that kinda cause the wearer harm due to the fact that as soon as it is in the dragons hands harm will be imparted? or he might just grab a shovel and dig under the hands of the dragon its not like hes going to get hurt by the dragon right?

[Raewyn]

....because most dragons worth looting are hyper-intelligent spellcasters, who are liable to be equally underhanded.

For example,what prevents them from simply cupping two claw-hands over your friend until he agrees to hand over the ring?

One, from what I've seen of dragon anatomy, their claws don't really 'cup.' Two, restraining the thief may require an attack roll. Three, the thief wouldn't hand over the ring knowing that the dragon would kill him right after, so they'd be at a stalemate until the thief started dehydrating/starving to death, which would likely not be allowed under the 'otherwise harm' clause of the item.

As for the first question, while the dragon cannot attack the person robbing its hoard, there is nothing to stop it from following the thief and then hiring someone to steal/destroy the ring. Then the thief is down a magic ring and has a wrathful dragon on his tail.

[Alleine]

Yup, that's right. Of course, who's to say the dragon doesn't just take himand leave him in a cage to rot? The dragon isn't harming him by picking him up or putting him in the cage. Just because they can't be harmed by a dragon doesn't mean there aren't ways around it. Heck, the minions of the dragon could be ordered to kill you.

The dragon, being a high level spellcaster most likely, will also have several spells at its disposal to not harm, but incapacitate and otherwise keep you from stealing its hoard.

[Godna]

but wouldnt hiring someone to steal from the theif be an attempt to do harm to him?

im probably just gonna throw one in the game just for the lulz now

[Lemur]

Dragon casts shatter on both of the character's rings, just to be sure. If the dragon doesn't know shatter, he can just use a wand or scrolls. No harm or offensive action is done to ring bearer.

Alternatively, the dragon can simply trap the character in a variety of magical or mundane methods, and wait for him to starve.

Or the dragon can summon things to attack for him or call in help from friends or minions.

[Alleine]

but wouldnt hiring someone to steal from the theif be an attempt to do harm to him?

The dragon isn't making an attempt to harm him though. It's the hired person who does the harming, though you could probably argue either way.

[MeanJoeSmith75]

One must also remember that to a dragon, its hoard is a part of its existence. Stealing from its hoard would bring harm to the dragon, thus nullifying the ring's power. It is an attack against the dragon's wealth, which is one and the same to the dragon mentality. Now said person could walk in and try to have a nice cup of tea with the dragon while his friends attempt to steal as a distraction and maybe put himself in between the dragon and aforementioned thieves.

[Godna]

he is hiring them in the hope to have them do harm to him.
so hiring them in the attempt of harm being done to him

[sonofzeal]

Attack rolls should be okay, by the rules, as long as they aren't actual attacks and don't do actual harm. Similarly, I think there's a difference between actively harming someone by spell or physical force, and passively allowing them to come to harm by trap or dehydration. As a DM, if a player attempted to abuse the ring then I'd go with the harshest interpretation of the rules.

[Godna]

Thats probably what i will do if they want to abuse it. they will have to more creative.

[Starsinger]

Dragon casts shatter on both of the character's rings, just to be sure.

That doesn't work.

[Alleine]

he is hiring them in the hope to have them do harm to him.
so hiring them in the attempt of harm being done to him

The dragon, though, is not doing any harm to anyone.

[horseboy]

One must also remember that to a dragon, its hoard is a part of its existence. Stealing from its hoard would bring harm to the dragon, thus nullifying the ring's power. It is an attack against the dragon's wealth, which is one and the same to the dragon mentality. Now said person could walk in and try to have a nice cup of tea with the dragon while his friends attempt to steal as a distraction and maybe put himself in between the dragon and aforementioned thieves.

+1 He's already "attacked the dragon in any way" The ring doesn't work after he pockets the first ill gotten gain.

[Raewyn]

+1 He's already "attacked the dragon in any way" The ring doesn't work after he pockets the first ill gotten gain.

+2 from BF (who is himself a DM).

Also, if you insist Godna, the dragon could play it Lord Kubouta style and say, "It would make me very sad if my friend Thiefy McHoardstealer were to be deprived of his magical itemry whilst he slept" with a lot of winking and nudging. It works for criminals, and dragons are pretty crafty.

[BobVosh]

The dragon, though, is not doing any harm to anyone.

Voluntarily attempt to harm...depends on how you define it.

Dictionary.com[/url]harm [hahrm] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. physical injury or mental damage; hurt: to do him bodily harm.
2. moral injury; evil; wrong.

–verb (used with object) 3. to do or cause harm to; injure; damage; hurt: to harm one's reputation.

Seems like you would be correct, according to this definition of harm.

[Jack_Simth]

One must also remember that to a dragon, its hoard is a part of its existence. Stealing from its hoard would bring harm to the dragon, thus nullifying the ring's power. It is an attack against the dragon's wealth, which is one and the same to the dragon mentality. Now said person could walk in and try to have a nice cup of tea with the dragon while his friends attempt to steal as a distraction and maybe put himself in between the dragon and aforementioned thieves.

I think this is about the interpretation I like best... although preventing the dragon from defending it's hoard, or aiding and abetting those attempting to steal the hoard, would also qualify as attempting to harm the dragon.

[John Campbell]

but wouldnt hiring someone to steal from the theif be an attempt to do harm to him?

That logic cuts both ways. If the dragon stealing (or hiring someone to steal) from the ringbearer is the dragon harming the ringbearer, then the ringbearer stealing from the dragon is the ringbearer harming the dragon, and the ringbearer has therefore attacked the dragon and forfeited the protection of the ring.

[Inyssius Tor]

Precisely. If the dragon can't rob your adventurer, then your adventurer can't rob the dragon; if your adventurer can rob the dragon, then the dragon can do the same.

The dragon might be able to take his loot back regardless, since he's just reclaiming what's his (while the thief is betraying the trust of a "friend" in order to steal his valuables).

[Godna]

+2 from BF (who is himself a DM).

Also, if you insist Godna, the dragon could play it Lord Kubouta style and say, "It would make me very sad if my friend Thiefy McHoardstealer were to be deprived of his magical itemry whilst he slept" with a lot of winking and nudging. It works for criminals, and dragons are pretty crafty.

i'll probably do this because now the idea of an overly dabber dragon hiring criminals heros to violentently retrieve that that was unfairly taken from him amuses me and is stuck in my head

[AslanCross]

One must also remember that to a dragon, its hoard is a part of its existence. Stealing from its hoard would bring harm to the dragon, thus nullifying the ring's power. It is an attack against the dragon's wealth, which is one and the same to the dragon mentality. Now said person could walk in and try to have a nice cup of tea with the dragon while his friends attempt to steal as a distraction and maybe put himself in between the dragon and aforementioned thieves.

Agreed. Besides, it's the ring of dragon friendship. Friendship ideally works both ways. Would you really consider a guy who mooches off your shinies a friend?

[BardicDuelist]

Agreed. Besides, it's the ring of dragon friendship. Friendship ideally works both ways. Would you really consider a guy who mooches off your shinies a friend?

I have a couple of friends like that. Now if they stole my shinies (not mooches, which implies my agreement in it), that'd be a different story.

[Prometheus]

So there are two ways to interpret it, strictly or loosely, neither which is a satisfactory looting. In one way of looking at it, stealing from the dragon is harming it and therefore it has every right to eat you. In the other, you can get around harming the dragon by stealing, and it can get around harming you by a) telling a minion to do it b) placing a part of itself between you and the gold c) attacking you indirectly (like knocking down stalactites above you, locking you up to starve, or casting an instantaneous spell in which the thief is not immediately in the targeted area).

[Kyeudo]

Just use a targeted Dispell Magic on him until his ring quits working, then eat him. Dragons worth robbing should have the spell slots for that in spades.

[only1doug]

One must also remember that to a dragon, its hoard is a part of its existence. Stealing from its hoard would bring harm to the dragon, thus nullifying the ring's power. It is an attack against the dragon's wealth, which is one and the same to the dragon mentality. Now said person could walk in and try to have a nice cup of tea with the dragon while his friends attempt to steal as a distraction and maybe put himself in between the dragon and aforementioned thieves.

+1 He's already "attacked the dragon in any way" The ring doesn't work after he pockets the first ill gotten gain.

+2 from BF (who is himself a DM).

+3

stealing from a dragons Hoard would definitely be considered an "attack" (by the dragon).

Consider:
no amount of friendship will make me let someone walk off with my life savings, dragons are supposed to be more materialistic than people.

[Roderick_BR]

but wouldnt hiring someone to steal from the theif be an attempt to do harm to him?

im probably just gonna throw one in the game just for the lulz now

One must also remember that to a dragon, its hoard is a part of its existence. Stealing from its hoard would bring harm to the dragon, thus nullifying the ring's power. It is an attack against the dragon's wealth, which is one and the same to the dragon mentality. Now said person could walk in and try to have a nice cup of tea with the dragon while his friends attempt to steal as a distraction and maybe put himself in between the dragon and aforementioned thieves.

If you can interpret any possible hostile action as a harmful action (i.e.: hiring someone to kick your ass for him), then doing any possible hostile action (i.e.: steal his treasure) can count as a harmful action, i.e.: an attack.

Things works both ways, as shown in the second quote.

Edit: Is that an artifact? There's an artifact in the DMG, that allows you to control dragons of a specific color. One that grants Sanctuary (with no save) from any dragon should also be a minor artifact as well. Not something you just find around.

[Dyllan]

Thats probably what i will do if they want to abuse it. they will have to more creative.

My method to prevent abuse would be to never let that ring exist in the first place. Maybe as a unique artifact, but certainly not something the players will get their hands on unless I decide I want them to.

[Telonius]

The Dragon decides he's going to follow the letter of the law, and take it a step further. Not only will he not harm the guy, he'll take personal charge of protecting him. And of course, the safest place in the world is right there along with the rest of his gold. Congratulations, thief, you're the newest addition to the hoard!

[MickJay]

I think the phrase "attack the dragon in ANY way" was put there specifically for the purpose of allowing GM to interpret abusive uses of the ring as an attack.

Players could try to convince the dragon that by not sharing his wealth he's actually harming them in some way (e.g putting at greater risk during travels because they're not adequately armed). The dragon would have to be a little dumb or naive to fall for something like that - but what a great opportunity for some actual roleplaying .