[4e D&D] Please explain why swordmage isn't power creeping

[Townopolis]

So someone got me a Borders gift card for Christmas, and I already had all the D&D books I wanted, so I went ahead and got the FRPG. Now I need someone to take my by the hand and explain, in soft, understanding terms, why the swordmage isn't an example of power creep.

This is why I'm having trouble.

1. Defenses: Your primary stats are Int (AC, Ref) and Con (Fort). Your class defense bonus is +2 Will and +1 AC. By investing heavily in their primary attack stat and investing solidly in their secondary attack stat (and tossing the remaining points into Wis) the swordmage has pain-free access to good defenses in all categories, with easy potential to surpass full plate+heavy shield.
   Compare to: Fighters have great fort and... pretty ****ty will. Paladins can get decent defenses overall, but needing both Wis and Cha for class abilities puts a damper on that.
2. Health: Perhaps the swordmage pays for easy defense with hard health? No, they have the same HP as any defender... oh and Con is their secondary stat, giving them pain-free access to better health than other defenders
   Compare to: Fighters (and some paladins) are Strength based, meaning any points they invest in health will be points they must take from defense. Charisma paladins do not have this issue, at least.
3. Marking: Both Aegis powers are quite nice, I can't say the swordmage gains any more ground here, but they don't lose any either. Aegis of Assault is roughly equivalent to Combat challenge, except you can beat up on other people while keeping it up on a big baddie, and getting away from you can't stop it. That's countered by the simple stickiness of fighters. The Aegis is also roughly equivalent to Divine Challenge, except without the stipulation that you have to engage them every round.
4. Powers: I can only speak for myself, but if I were a fighter/paladin, I would give my left leg for any one of Booming Blade, Lightning Lure, or Sword Burst (except, you know, based on whatever primary attack stat I'm using).

I don't really see a place where the class pays for the advantages they have. I'm not saying it's woefully OP, but it definitely looks like power creep to me. I need someone to explain why it's not, possibly with visual aids.

Or is it just power creep?

[Aron Times]

Swordmages don't deal a lot of damage. Fighters and paladins tend to outdamage them most of the time. The main advantages of being a swordmage is that you get to teleport a lot and you're better at attacking large numbers of opponents than fighters or paladins.

[The Mormegil]

Ok, this was done many times already. Everybody agrees swordmages are cool, but not too strong. Especially confronted to Fighters.

The fun thing is that, while fighters get goodies all along their career, Swordmages rock on the first levels and die away on the last ones, while paladins are hard to get to carburate, but are cooler at the epic tier.

Here is point by point what you asked.
1. Defenses. Not much to say here, just make your calculations assuming the best armor at each level. If you start with a 20 Int you have, all your career, at best 2 if not 1 points more - if not less - AC than any plate wielder. This is mainly because of masterwork armor. Also, you are left behind quickly on Will defense, and while your Ref defense is great, your Fortitude and Will are subpar to those of many fighters (Str and Wis) and Str-based paladins (Str and Wis, too).
2. They were never meant to have less health. In fact, they do not. Anyway, hammer fighters are better in that respect, and paladins start with two more surges, even if Con is not secondary. But, Swordmages cannot heal themselves. This is important: between a fighter with invigorating powers, Victorious Surge, Regeneration, Iron Warrior, No Surrender etc. and a paladin with LoH and strikes, swordmages are actually grateful of having secondary Con.
3. Marking. Half of the Swordmages have got great marks. The other ones do not. They have a bit of an edge on paladins here, but not that much on Fighters. Intresting enough, SMs are actually running away from their marks most of the time, to have it actived. Strange way of being a defender, hey?
4. Their at-wills are great. Ok, agreed. In the first ten levels they also has access to many OMG powers. But they die away from there.

The main point of the class is that while you have great potential, you either focus on defense (getting at best a little advantage on Plate users) OR on offense (and thus not completely suck on that regard). Trust me. Doing less than 30 damages with an at-will at 25th level sucks.

So Swordmages are cool, full of tricks and generally powerful, but definitely not power-creeping. Plus, they do not overshadow anyone (which is kind of important). They work well with anyone, even other swordmages.

[Mercenary Pen]

Also, many Swordmages take the feat Intelligent Blademaster early on, allowing them to use their INT modifier for melee basic attacks, and turning STR into something of a dump stat- with the knock-on effect of reducing Fortitude defense progression.

[PinkysBrain]

I prefer to see ToB as power equalization rather than power creep ... finally pure class characters which can stand toe to toe with core casters and do something useful.

Their superiority to pure fighters/paladins is a problem with pure fighters/paladins.

[Gralamin]

I prefer to see ToB as power equalization rather than power creep ... finally pure class characters which can stand toe to toe with core casters and do something useful.

Their superiority to pure fighters/paladins is a problem with pure fighters/paladins.

Someone didn't bother to read the topic. (Hint, its: 4E)
And as people have said above, they really aren't all that great.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I prefer to see ToB as power equalization rather than power creep ... finally pure class characters which can stand toe to toe with core casters and do something useful.

Their superiority to pure fighters/paladins is a problem with pure fighters/paladins.

A common problem. He said Swordmage, not Swordsage. Also, the thread title says 4e. So, while I agree with you, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Edit: Damn ninjas!

[Mercenary Pen]

I prefer to see ToB as power equalization rather than power creep ... finally pure class characters which can stand toe to toe with core casters and do something useful.

Their superiority to pure fighters/paladins is a problem with pure fighters/paladins.

SwordMAGE not Swordsage. We're talking 4e mechanics here, not ToB.

[PinkysBrain]

Oops, mea culpa :)

[Oslecamo]

4. Their at-wills are great. Ok, agreed. In the first ten levels they also has access to many OMG powers. But they die away from there.

Soo, we're back to rule now, suck later? Well, don't worry, just as the new released fighter powers(wich are strictly better than some of the core fighter powers), w'll see in no time new stronger swordmage high level powers.

[Tengu_temp]

Soo, we're back to rule now, suck later?

Defenders aren't supposed to deal crapload of damage - they're supposed to make the enemies hit them, and not their allies. And swordmages are good at this, just like other defenders. And have much more powers with area of effect and/or ongoing damage, as fitting for a defender/controller hybrid (fighters are defenders/strikers, paladins are defenders/leaders).

[Starsinger]

Another issue with Swordmages is that Shielding Swordmages do nothing against controller type attacks where the real reason for hitting someone is to take them out, not damage them. Measly psychic damage and the target is dominated? Shield them all you want. A bit of thunder damage and the target is dazed? Shield them all you want.

Whereas, Assaulting Swordmagi, Paladins, and Fighters still make controller type attacks a choice of "pain or attack the defender".

Now that said, in epic, Shielding Swordmages make great secondary defenders. They take the feat to mark any number of creatures in the burst, mark everything, and the primary defender marks the most dangerous target first, other than that though, I don't think they're "zomfg better" than Paladins and Fighters.

[Oslecamo]

Defenders aren't supposed to deal crapload of damage - they're supposed to make the enemies hit them, and not their allies. And swordmages are good at this, just like other defenders. And have much more powers with area of effect and/or ongoing damage, as fitting for a defender/controller hybrid (fighters are defenders/strikers, paladins are defenders/leaders).

Fighters disagree with you. They can rival rogues in damage output during a battle and have the best attack bonus of the game. Wich is kinda ironic because they were actually suposed to be pure defenders.

Paladins on the other hand can still deal a considerable amount of damage, assuming they focus on a single target.

Also, if you can't deal good damage, then the monsters will simply suck up whatever penalty you imposed them and attack the squisiher members.

Defenders defend by threatening: attack me or I'm gonna punch you in the face. If you, however, are really hard to attack, but your punch in the face is actually a simple caress, the monster will simply attack the rogue/warlock who's actually dealing them damage, and is still easier to hit than the defender. If your punch on the face doesn't deal some serious damage, you're pretty much useless, because the enemy has zero reasons to attack you.

Now the swordmage's main advantage is that he can easily hit several oponents at once, so against multiple targets his damage keeps well up.

[Tengu_temp]

How exactly is the punch in the face Swordmages deal weaker than Fighters? For both it's an equivalent of an at-will power, which has equal strength for both. In fact, Swordmage has an advantage here, since a lot of his encounter powers can be used with Aegis of Assault. Swordmages deal less damage to a single target when it's their turn to act, not the enemy's.

[Oslecamo]

Because fighters have a bonus to their hit chance, so they will land more blows, and deal more damage.

[Tengu_temp]

Unless it's a battlerager fighter. And c'mon, 1 point of attack is not enough to make a difference between "a punch to the face" and "caress".

[Oslecamo]

That point alone isn't, indeed, won't transform it into a caress. However, your swordmage is limited to heavy blades.

The fighter picks up a big hammer/axe, wich deal more damage than an heavy blade. And is a minotaur, wich make that diference even bigger. Now the damage starts to add up quickly, and the fighter's attacks of oportunity start to hurt a lot.

Not to mention that the fighter gets to add his wisdom bonus to the hit chance. Be a pit fighter and you're adding it to the damage also! I don't remember any way the swordmage gets to add another stat to damage on his attacks of oportunity however.

[Artanis]

Fighters disagree with you. They can rival rogues in damage output during a battle and have the best attack bonus of the game. Wich is kinda ironic because they were actually suposed to be pure defenders.

In theory, nobody is supposed to be "pure" of anything. As Tengu_temp said, the Fighter is part Striker, and as such, is designed to deal decent damage. Swordmages are part Controller, and as such screw with enemies and deal with crowds a lot better.



As a secondary note to this, I have an honest question: when a Fighter gears up damage to the point where it can "rival a Rogue", how much in the way of defense does it sacrifice? Wielding a 2-hander would definitely hurt the Fighter's durability, and while I haven't looked at the Fighter powers in-depth (hence me asking ), it seems logical that taking stats and powers for those big-damage weapon types would probably hurt durability is well. And a dead Defender isn't going to be defending anybody.

[Tengu_temp]

That point alone isn't, indeed, won't transform it into a caress. However, your swordmage is limited to heavy blades.

The fighter picks up a big hammer/axe, wich deal more damage than an heavy blade. And is a minotaur, wich make that diference even bigger. Now the damage starts to add up quickly, and the fighter's attacks of oportunity start to hurt a lot.

Not to mention that the fighter gets to add his wisdom bonus to the hit chance. Be a pit fighter and you're adding it to the damage also! I don't remember any way the swordmage gets to add another stat to damage on his attacks of oportunity however.

You do realize that heavy blades are the best weapons, and that +1 to attack is worth more than 1 more damage on average, right? And not every DM allows minotaurs and bugbears, and if you have one that do, then you can take that race as a swordmage as well - no +2 to intelligence hurts, but dwarves make one of the best fighters and they don't have a boost to strength either.
Not to mention that size increase is also one-two damage more on average. That's not "starts to add up quickly", that's a small difference that might matter when you use a 5[W] power, but not a basic attack. What enemy would be afraid to take 2d6+4 damage, but ignore 1d10+4 damage?

Swordmages have several ways of boosting their Aegis of Assault - just from the top of my head, Escalating Assault increases your attack bonus each time you use AoA, Elemental Assault (Genasi-only) gives +3 untyped damage bonus, Anarch of Shyr gives +2 to attack... And, as I mentioned before, swordmages can use many encounter powers with AoA.

[Asbestos]

Not to mention that minotaurs no longer work that way. They lost that oversived silliness as soon as they got properly statted out.

[Tengu_temp]

Where? Did some book I'm unaware of come out?

[Artanis]

I think it was in Dragon or something.

[Dublock]

no, the WoTC updates gets rid of it, and with bugbears as well.

EDIT: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates

[Artanis]

Ah, that's right. I knew it was something d/led off the WotC site

[Asbestos]

Where? Did some book I'm unaware of come out?

Tis in a dragon article (sadly) and according to the character builder (which makes rules legal characters for RPGA and such) dragon articles supersede the back of the MM. The minos get some feats, paragon paths, and +2 AC while charging in exchange for being oversized. The feat that lets them use their gore for OAs, without expending it, is pretty sweet. Knocking people prone as an OA... at level 1 (I think its a heroic feat). One of the paragon paths makes them large-ish, they still don't have the oversize bit but their reach increases by 1.

Anyway, Oslecamo, I've been reading your posts and am wondering... do you have a copy of the 4e FR Player's Guide?

[RTGoodman]

no, the WoTC updates gets rid of it, and with bugbears as well.

EDIT: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates

...I don't see it anywhere in there. Anyway, the Minotaur article in an issue of Dragon (#369, I think?) took away Oversized and replaced it with some other minor abilities or improvements on old ones or somesuch. I DON'T, however, think Bugbears have gotten that revision yet.

Furthermore, the D&D Insider Compendium, which is sort of the official compilation of all the official 4E material, has deleted the MM stats for Minotaur and replaced them with the Dragon version, so I assume those are the new "official" Minotaur PC stats.

[Artanis]

Yeah, I just saw that. I guess I WAS right! Hah!

Too bad we can't get it anymore

[Dublock]

bah..Dragon not revisions :p Thats what I get for trying to be helpful while on vacation

Although I seriously thought Bugbear got those revisions as well...I could be mistaken. Oh well.

That book you mention is coming out next year right? (D&D Insider Compendium, it IS a collection of the dragon articles which they publish on a yearly basis...right?)

[RTGoodman]

Yeah, I just saw that. I guess I WAS right! Hah!

Too bad we can't get it anymore

Well, if your DM doesn't use Dragon and doesn't have access to D&D Insider, you're golden!


As far as the OP's point, I really don't think the Swordmage is OP, and I don't see more than just a little power creep (certainly not as much as the new powers added by Martial Power). I've built several low-level characters in 4E, and even though I haven't played most of them, the Swordmage doesn't seem too much better than my Paladins and Fighters. It's a really COOL concept (and this from a guy that usually doesn't like Gishes at all), but I don't think it's strictly better (overall) than the other Defenders out there now.

That book you mention is coming out next year right? (D&D Insider Compendium, it IS a collection of the dragon articles which they publish on a yearly basis...right?)

It's no book - it's an actual online database of all the 4E crunch that's out so far (except maybe books that came out this month - they update the last Thursday of each month, I think). You can find out about it HERE, and maybe even use the demo, but you have to be an Insider subscriber to use it to its full extent.

[Gralamin]

Also, I heard that the revised Minotaur and Bugbear stats would be in the PHB2, so that the online version is a preview of the changes being made to the monster races.