[3.5] Help me get the Mad out of my monk

[detrevnisisiht]

Quite simply what are some ways I can lower the dependency on multiple skills for a 12th level monk. Feats, skills and items welcome, with the completes series allowed, and many other books on a case-basis.

[KKL]

Kung Fu genius and Carmendine Monk I think?

Those are the only two I remember that switches around the Wis dependency of the Monk to...Int I think it was?

[Kurald Galain]

If those other books allowed include the Tome of Battle, how about changing your class to Swordsage?

[Flickerdart]

Kung Fu genius and Carmendine Monk I think?

Those are the only two I remember that switches around the Wis dependency of the Monk to...Int I think it was?

Yep. Fist of the Forest prestige class gives you CON to AC, too. You might also want to PrC out into something else, like the Psionic Fist, which would give you access to some much-needed abilities in the form of Psionics while advancing your unarmed damage, AC bonus and speed. You can grab Expansion and make yourself Large (Or Huge if you augment it), boosting your unarmed damage, and that's a trick you'll love.

Also, what race are you? Being Large is going to be a great help, since grappling becomes a halfway decent strategy.

[Roderick_BR]

If those other books allowed include the Tome of Battle, how about changing your class to Swordsage?

(...) You might also want to PrC out into something else, (...)

In other words: Don't play a monk.

[Rei_Jin]

Wow, how about we actually help the guy rather than being snarky?

There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds called Intuitive Attack that will allow you to use Wisdom for your melee attack rolls, Zen Archery from Complete Warrior will do the same for your ranged attack rolls.

Other than that, it depends on what you want to move away from what stat, and what you want your monk to be able to do.

Agile Athlete from Races of the Wild allows you to make Jump and Climb checks based on your Dexterity, rather than Strength.

Doing your build with these feats will mean that you don't need Strength.

If you want more damage, pick up Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle and Improved Natural Weapon from the Monster Manual.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, depending on how permissive your DM is, you may want to take a look at the remade monk class here.

[playswithfire]

Kalashtar Monk 6/War Mind 6

with Monastic Training as either the first or second level monk bonus feat and Tashalatora[War Mind] (Secrets of Sarlona) as your 6th level feat.

Stacks monk and War Mind levels for AC bonus, unarmed damage and flurry. War Mind 5 gives you sweeping strike that lets you make every attack in your full flurry affect two adjacent opponents. War mind also gives some useful powers that can help out monk, notable expansion as well as some other benefits (including full BAB of course).

Sorry, that doesn't actually help with MAD all that much, but some of the powers you can learn (two 1st level, one 2nd level and one 3rd level) should be able to

[Sir Giacomo]

Quite simply what are some ways I can lower the dependency on multiple skills for a 12th level monk. Feats, skills and items welcome, with the completes series allowed, and many other books on a case-basis.

I'd suggest to take a look at my monk guide (link below) and the joker monk example of 12th level. It's core only, but you can see what kind skills can be already got (based on a human with INT 14), what kind of items may be of interest, how much your damage already scales even without uber STR, and so on.

- Giacomo

[Skjaldbakka]

Already been said once, but it is worth repeating. Intuitive Attack. It completely negates the MAD issue with monks.

I can do the math again if you request, but during one of the many debates about monks on this board, I compared the AC you can get with sword/shield fighter to monk with intuitive attack.

The AC the monk has at level 20 matches the AC the fighter will have, assuming an equal dedication to dexterity.

The fighter takes needs STR and CON, and maybe some dex.
The Intuitive Attack monk needs WIS and CON, and maybe some dex.

Your damage still sucks though. You pretty much need to either convince the GM to let you either enchant your unarmed strikes with energy damage effects, or get a magic item that effectively enchants your unarmed strikes. Some GMs will rule that you can use gauntlets that way, but according to the FAQ, if you do that, you can't flurry with them.

The other option for dealing with the lower damage there is to focus on status effects. There are several feats that give you status effects you can use iwth stunning fist. They arrive a little late, and mostly target fort, so there are some issues with that as well.

Another option here is use spell storing for your gauntlets, assuming that is allowed by your GM. That would widen up the status effects you can inflict during a fight, which helps when the thing you are fighting is not a good target for Fort saves.

If you can get the ability to cast chilling touch, that synergizes well, since it is a damage boost that lasts multiple hits, and each hit also has a save on it for str damage.

That is more a sorc/monk combination, though.

Poison is also a potential monk tool, however you may have issues with other PCs not appreciating your use of poison, or with the DM declaring that since poison use is illegal, a lawful aligned character cannot use it. However, once you jump those hurdles, you have a few advantages as a monk once you are immune to poison. You no longer have to worry about poisoning yourself, and depending on your GM, you can use contact poisons with your unarmed strikes.

hopefully there is some insight there. see guys, not everyone says get a ToB, you newb*!

*however, if ToB is allowed, monk is completely outclassed.

Quick comment here:

1- this thread is about to be de-railed into an argument about whether or not monks are balanced.

2- Giacomo's guide relies on a number of contested rules calls, which you want to check and see if your GM agrees with Giacomo on how those things are ruled before you try to use his build.

3- A lot of the issues with the giacomonk can be negated by taking a few levels of sorcerer and the Ascetic Mage feat (not 100% on the name of the feat, but it pretty much uses CHA instead of wisdom for your monk stuff).

[monty]

Already been said once, but it is worth repeating. Intuitive Attack. It completely negates the MAD issue with monks.

Except, you know, your damage will suck without a decent Str, even if you're consistently hitting.

[Signmaker]

Except, you know, your damage will suck without a decent Str, even if you're consistently hitting.

From what I've heard, the Status monk doesn't really care about damage. Then again, the idea of tossing a dozen trinkets of status damage isn't a popular one. Does anyone know how well that one works out?

[Skjaldbakka]

Except, you know, your damage will suck without a decent Str, even if you're consistently hitting.

Since I am sure you read my entire post, I fail to see how you missed the next section:

Your damage still sucks though. You pretty much need to either convince the GM to let you either enchant your unarmed strikes with energy damage effects, or get a magic item that effectively enchants your unarmed strikes. Some GMs will rule that you can use gauntlets that way, but according to the FAQ, if you do that, you can't flurry with them.

Does anyone know how well that one works out?

It works well in some campaigns, and utterly fails in others. The major deciding factor is whether or not your GM likes to use humanoid opponents. That style of monk works really well in my campaigns, because I love to use humanoid opponents. Well, it works reasonably. I have a few additional tweaks to monk that makes it go from reasonable to really well.

[Collin152]

I'd suggest to take a look at my monk guide (link below) and the joker monk example of 12th level. It's core only, but you can see what kind skills can be already got (based on a human with INT 14), what kind of items may be of interest, how much your damage already scales even without uber STR, and so on.

- Giacomo

Honestly, I would advise against this, especially if one intends to avoid MAD.

Really, the best suggestion given was to use Unarmed Swordsage. Monk is a really poorly designed class.

[Flickerdart]

From what I've heard, the Status monk doesn't really care about damage. Then again, the idea of tossing a dozen trinkets of status damage isn't a popular one. Does anyone know how well that one works out?

The Status Monk is utterly ineffective against Undead or things with similar immunities, though. So, carry around a jug of holy water.

[theMycon]

Another vote for "ignore strength". Unless you plan to grapple/trip/etc. a lot, you only need enough to carry your stuff as a light load. You'll need Wis, and Con/dex are always helpful too.

Get intuitive attack (or weapon finesse if you're non-good), for wis (or dex) to hit.

The "Fist of the Forest" prestige class (Complete Champion) gives con to AC, uncanny dodge at level 2, the equivalent of 4 level increases (each) at 1 & 3, and a spattering of other forgettable abilities. This makes Dex now a "cool thing to put a good score into" instead of a necessity.

The Kung-Gu Genius thing mentioned above is apparently from Dragon Magazine (says The X stat to Y Bonus thread), therefore almost no GM will approve of it. But that just changes a stat you need, and thus only helps for the "more flexible rogue" type build.

--------------------
General stuff I've learned

If you're going for damage, STR is next to useless. The "worse barbarian" type monk should rely on size increases (Improve nat attack, expansion/belt of growth), extra dice (ascetic rogue and only 1 monk level, flying kick, iron fist, etc), and if you can retrain feats/have lots of spare cash, level increases (Superior unarmed strike, Monk's belt, etc). Your damage dice don't go up past 20th level, despite it being ridiculously easy to attack as a level 20 monk by level 7 or 8. However, getting bigger provides geometric returns, and extra dice provide easier-to-stack linear returns.

If you wanna focus on being the battlefield denial B*****d, then you need Str. It's the only way to trip. Also high dex, combat reflexes, spiked chain and/or large size, and all the "improved trip/grapple/etc" feats.

If you want to play your monk as a less situational rogue, Str is again next to useless. I've suggested carrying 4 or 5 bags of tricks, because they're cheap as heck, provide a flanking partner, and are effectively endless if you keep cycling. Keep your AC up and pester (stunning fist, poisons, bagged bears, tanglefoot bags... whatever you like), basically making it easier for everyone else to do damage.

[Skjaldbakka]

Really, the best suggestion given was to use Unarmed Swordsage. Monk is a really poorly designed class.

Actually, that is more like not giving any advice at all. If that were allowed, why would he be asking about advice for a monk?

[Curmudgeon]

Boost your attacks and damage with a Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species and also available here at the bottom of the page). Add all the enhancements you can afford.

Get a Heward's Handy Haversack to keep your load light despite a low STR score.

[KKL]

EXCEPT MY GOOD MODERATOR FRIEND, THIS POST WAS NOT IN FACT INSULTING THAT MAN WITH THE BLACK AND WHITE PHOTO.

It was in fact, complimenting him. So if you could revoke that it'd be gravy.

[Skjaldbakka]

Boost your attacks and damage with a Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species and also available here at the bottom of the page). Add all the enhancements you can afford.

I knew there was a magic item that did that, just didn't know what/where.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, that is more like not giving any advice at all. If that were allowed, why would he be asking about advice for a monk?

That depends on whether he wants to play a character who is conceptually a monk archetype, or a character that mechanically uses the class called "monk". The two don't overlap all that much, really. Remember how Miko is conceptually a samurai without having the samurai class? Same thing.

If I want to play a character based on Li Mu Bai, or Friar Tuck, or even Son Goku, I would look for some other mechanical options.

[sonofzeal]

Actually, that is more like not giving any advice at all. If that were allowed, why would he be asking about advice for a monk?

Because he may not have been aware of the Swordsage.

Specifically, even if he was generally aware of ToB, he may not have seen how well an Unarmed Swordsage focusing on Setting Sun and Diamond Mind really captures the "Monk" paradigm, and wraps it up in a far more effective package.

[Tokiko Mima]

Monk's issues aren't just MAD, after all. There are also the terrible class features to look forward to, like at level 20 you become even more vulnerable to most magic effects, the slow fall that is not as good as a 1st level arcane spell in nearly every situation, the once a week save or save or maybe die, or the ability to dimension door tens of levels after arcane casters, or the ability not to be penalized for aging (but you still die).

When there is a class that plays more like a Monk should, works well simulating most martial arts, and is fun to use, isn't using that class instead a much more valid solution than trying to fix a class that is sub par in almost every imaginable category? It seems like a lot of work for something that's easy to achieve if you try it another way.

[Telonius]

I haven't done the math on this one, but have been considering the idea... As long as you have at least 13 Strength, you can take Power Attack. Even though the name of the feat implies you thwack something really hard in order to do more damage to it, that's not necessarily the case. It just takes the bonus out of your Attack bonus, regardless what ability modifier is added to that. Combine it with Intuitive Attack, pump up your Wisdom, get a Quarterstaff and wield it two-handed. You'll be able to Power Attack flurry with the Q'staff, as well as make unarmed attacks against all of your foes if it makes more sense to do so.

Make that thing a Tortle (race from Dragon magazine) and you've created Donatello.

Build possibilities spoilered.

Spoiler

Show

Possible first-level stats (after racial adjustments), 28 point buy:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 8

AC at level 1 is 10 + 1(Dex) + 4 (Wis) + 3 (Natural) +1 (Monk)= 19
Attack bonus is +4

Feats:
1 Intuitive Attack, Stunning Fist
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
6 Improved Disarm, Improved Natural Attack

Level 6, let's say he attacks a foe.
Flurry, Unarmed Attack: +7/+7, damage d10+2 (avg 7.5 per hit)
Flurry, MW Quarterstaff: +8/+8, damage d6+3 (avg 6.5 per hit)
Regular, Quarterstaff: +9, damage d6+3 (avg 6.5)
Power Attack +1, Quarterstaff: +8, damage d6+5 (avg 8.5)
Power Attack +1 Flurry, Quarterstaff: +7/+7, damage d6+5 (avg 8.5 per hit)
Power Attack +2, Quarterstaff: +7, damage d6+7 (avg 10.5)
Power Attack +2 Flurry, Quarterstaff: +6/+6, damage d6+7 (avg 10.5 per hit)

Not too bad! Not spectacular by any means (a Barbarian is going to blow him out of the water for damage), but better than most Monks are going to get.

Let's take it up to level 11, when the Monk gets Improved Flurry. Assume stat bumps to WIS at 4 and 8.
Flurry, Unarmed Attack: +13/+13/+13/+8, damage 2d6+2 (avg 9 per hit)
Flurry, MW Quarterstaff: +14/+14/+14/+9, damage d6+3 (avg 6.5 per hit)
(No reason to do a regular attack rather than Flurry for Qstaff at this level)
Power Attack +1 Flurry, Qstaff: +13/+13/+13/+8, dmg d6+5 (avg 8.5 per)
Power Attack +2 Flurry, Qstaff: +12/+12/+12/+7, dmg d6+7 (avg 10.5 per)

Note that this would work best in low levels to mid levels. Once the Monk's unarmed damage gets to 2d8 or so (usually at level 12 with a Monk's Belt), you need to start enchanting your Quarterstaff in order to keep up with the unarmed damage. Still, that's not too bad of a power improvement. And if your DM houserules to allow unarmed damage to be channeled through Monk weapons, even better.

If you're using typical Monk tactics and fighting some of the lesser enemies the DM throws at you (and letting the Fighter go after that CR 11 beastie), you're probably going to be running up against CR 9 things. Most of those monsters I've flipped through in the SRD have ACs in the low 20s. You'll probably be hitting them around half the time with Power Attack.

Level 11 basic AC would be 10 + 5 (Wis) + 1 (Dex) + 3 (Natural) + 2 (Monk bonus) = 21. Any stat-boosting items or Bracers would push that up higher.

If the DM doesn't allow Dragon, you can switch to a Human, Elf, Dwarf, or Half-Orc.
Str: 14
Dex: 10 (if Elf) or 12
Con: 10 or 12 (if Elf)
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 8

Compare this to a Strength-focused Half-Orc Monk.
Str: 20
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 6

Level 6 (Str 21):
To hit: 9
Damage: d10+5 (avg 10.5)
AC: 13

Level 11 (Str 22)
To hit: +14/+14/+14/+9
Damage: 2d6+6 (avg 13)
AC: 14

The Strength-focused Monk is hitting harder (by 6.5 damage) and as often as the Wisdom-focused Quarterstaff Monk. But his AC is much lower (by 7), his saves are worse, his Stunning Fist hits less often, and his skill checks are going to be worse.

EDIT: Yes, the Monk fix is Unarmed Swordsage. But not all DMs have (or allow) Tome of Battle, and some groups play Core only.

[Talya]

Monks require very high strength, dexterity, constitution, and wisdom, as well as a reasonably high intelligence. This is the worst MAD of any class in the game. Merely moving one ability score dependancy to another doesn't come close to eliminating MAD. By comparison a fighter or wizard need two ability scores (Str and Con, or Con and Int respectively.) A few classes need three.

Unless you find a way to move two or more ability score dependancies to the same ability, you haven't fixed MAD with the monk. Furthermore, spending precious feats on merely fixing a problem with the monk when other classes are spending feats on becoming better at what they do is going to further suck. And that's just fixing one of a monk's many problems..and not necessarily the worst of them. :(

Monks can't be fixed with RAW, you really need some major re-writing and houserule usage, if you don't want to use swordsage.

[Telonius]

The OP isn't asking for a Monk rewrite, or comparing it to other classes. He's trying to wring advantages out of a bad situation.

If you go with Wis (rather than Str) to hit, and ignore Int (Spot, Move Silent and Tumble will give you a semi-useful scout), you can reduce the ability dependency down to Wis and Dex. This is not the most powerful class, but it can be a more well-rounded Monk.

[Talya]

The OP isn't asking for a Monk rewrite, or comparing it to other classes. He's trying to wring advantages out of a bad situation.

If you go with Wis (rather than Str) to hit, and ignore Int (Spot, Move Silent and Tumble will give you a semi-useful scout), you can reduce the ability dependency down to Wis and Dex. This is not the most powerful class, but it can be a more well-rounded Monk.

You also need to find a way to get WIS to damage, or you're still strength dependant, just a bit less so. Also, you need con high as well, so you're still stuck with 4 needed ability scores.

[playswithfire]

I revise my previous answer.
Human Passive Way variant monk 6/War Mind 5/Shiba Protector 1

Feats:
Monk1[Combat Expertise], feat[Alertness], human[Iron Will], flaw[Education], flaw2[Hidden Talent]
Monk2[Monastic Training]
3[Intuitive Attack]
Monk6[Tashalatora(War Mind)] Can someone who can find Secrets of Sarlona confirm that you can take Tashalatora as a monk bonus feat?

Open feats: 6,9,12

WIS to AC, WIS to attack rolls twice, WIS to damage, combat expertise as a bonus feat, so no need for 13 INT
Should get by ok with just WIS,DEX and CON

Still has full flurry and sweeping strike, but won't get the third level psionic power until next level

[Kurald Galain]

You know, it strikes me as silly that several people here state that "the DM probably won't allow TOB" but nevertheless take it for granted that the DM will allow flaws, or obscure races from Dragon magazine.

As I recall, one of the easiest Monk fixes that is almost certainly allowed by any DM, is simply playing a fighter. Nobody is forcing a fighter to use weapons or armor, and with feats to spare, you'll easily beat the monk at grappling, sundering, disarming, tripping or any other strategy you could possibly need. So I'd suggest adding a fighter dip to the build (preferably 12 levels of it )

I haven't done the math on this one, but have been considering the idea... As long as you have at least 13 Strength, you can take Power Attack.

Power Attack and a mediocre BAB is not such a stellar combo.

You'll probably be hitting them around half the time with Power Attack.

Indeed, "hitting about half the time" means missing half the time.

[Telonius]

You also need to find a way to get WIS to damage, or you're still strength dependant, just a bit less so. Also, you need con high as well, so you're still stuck with 4 needed ability scores.

It's quite a bit less strength dependent, if you go in for Power Attack. At level 11, even with a non-enchanted MW quarterstaff, if you power attack for 3 you're only 3.5 damage behind a Strength-focused Monk (who's also doing power attack 3). I would call that about as close to non-Strength-dependent as you can get. This doesn't fix all of the Monk's problems (not by a longshot), but it does remove Strength as a cause for concern.