Improving the Paladin

[KeresM]

Paladin Option 1

Paladins also get a bonus feat every four levels (1, 5, 13, 17). These feats must be from the divine list (PHB - Combat casting, extra turning, Complete Divine – Augment healing, Empower turning, improved smiting, quicken turning, elemental smiting, sacred boost, true believer, consecrate spell, sanctify relic, Exalted Deeds – Ancestral relic, resounding blow, subduing strike, celestial mount, exalted smite, exalted turning, gift of grace, hands of a healer, nimbus of light, holy radiance, stigmata, ranged smite evil, sacred vows, sanctify martial strike, touch of golden ice, purify spell. Martial Study).
When a paladin gains a mount, they have the feat mounted combat, in regards to that mount only. They gain additional feats in regards to their special mount as follows – 7th – ride by attack, 11th – trample, 14th – spirited charge.

Paladin Option 2

Paladins gain martial maneuvers as crusaders.
Paladins do not get spellcasting abilities or mounts



Thoughts?

[Prometheus]

There are other fixes, obviously. I like Fax Celestis's, which is also takes care of the annoying paladin's code in a way that preserves the rp element and deals with the inconsistancies generated by Slaughter, Tyranny, and Freedom Paladins.

[Dacia Brabant]

I of course am all in favor of the option to reflavor Paladins as a martial adept class (it should, it's partly my character that we're dealing with here ) -- giving up spells and the special mount fits that thematically since they'd be focusing on their fighting style more than spiritual matters, and it seems like a fair trade mechanically.

But I do not like the Crusader's method of recovering maneuvers since it doesn't seem to even have a method other than by random number generator/act of god, which to my mind doesn't fit the idea of a disciplined knight templar type. It seems like it should revolve around "tanking" such as it is in 3.5, but I'm not sure what. Some kind of taunt, or taking a certain amount of damage maybe?

So as an addendum to the thread, does anyone know of any changes to the Crusader's mechanics in this regard?

[Hal]

I've seen ideas thrown around which center on unique Paladin features, such as Lay on Hands or Remove Disease. In the same way that Clerics get feats which allow them to burn Turn Undead to fuel the feat, why not have feats which are fueled by LoH/RD?

(Yes, I know Paladins get Turn Undead as well, but it's not exactly game changing for them to use it on the burnable feats. None of the feats most useful for Paladins will ever compare to Divine Metamagic.)

[AslanCross]

Apart from Fax Celestis' mantle Paladin, there's also One Winged 4ngel's Rebalanced paladin.

Both homebrews give the paladin reasons to stay a paladin and not multiclass/PrC later, but they also work fine with multiclassing. I like stacking either with Crusader levels.

As for an alternative to the Crusader's random recovery method, you could just give the Crusader the Swordsage's "full round action to recover one" mechanic, but keep the maneuvers known/readied progression of the Crusader.

[bosssmiley]

I've seen a couple of interesting suggestions that don't involve rebuilding the class from the ground up.

One of these was that Smite should just be an 'always on' ability, rather than limited by uses/day.
The other was that the Paladin should just lose its (hopelessly nerfed) cure disease and turning outright, and that it should have its spell casting bumped up (6 spell levels, progressing as Bard, maxing out at 4 spells/level/day).
The third was to treat the Paladin's mount as a cohort (it always stays at 2 HD less than the pally).

Auras? Belong in Diablo. Just give the Pally divine health, divine grace, immunity to fear effects, and a +4 bonus to the Fear saves of all allies who can see him.

[TempusCCK]

Include some or all the Fighter Bonus Feats in that list, bump up the amount of feats the Paladin gets, and switch Wisdom casting to charisma casting, or switch Lay On Hands/Divine Grace to Wisdom.

That's a decent, very simple fix that will make the Paladin a little less lame to touch.

[Grail]

I reckon a really simple way to improve them is to simply have their Smite Evil overcome any DR the evil creature may have.

[KeresM]

Paladin Option 1
Paladins also get a bonus feat every three levels (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19). These feats must be from the divine list (PHB - Combat casting, extra turning, Complete Divine – Augment healing, Empower turning, improved smiting, quicken turning, elemental smiting, sacred boost, true believer, consecrate spell, sanctify relic, Exalted Deeds – Ancestral relic, resounding blow, subduing strike, celestial mount, exalted smite, exalted turning, gift of grace, hands of a healer, nimbus of light, holy radiance, stigmata, ranged smite evil, sacred vows, sanctify martial strike, touch of golden ice, purify spell. Martial Study) or from the fighter list.
When a paladin gains a mount, they have the feat mounted combat, in regards to that mount only. They gain additional feats in regards to their special mount as follows – 7th – ride by attack, 11th – trample, 14th – spirited charge.

Better?

[Berserk Monk]

I like option one, but rather for the feats, make it something linked to divine power or combat.

[Hal]

Not that I dislike giving bonus feats to Paladins, but the one problem I see with it is more of a balance issue, in that it means that selecting a Fighter is an even worse choice than ever.

[Dacia Brabant]

Not that I dislike giving bonus feats to Paladins, but the one problem I see with it is more of a balance issue, in that it means that selecting a Fighter is an even worse choice than ever.

No doubt, but that can be accomplished by giving Fighters a bonus feat every level instead of every other level. It is a base class, along with Rogue, that definitely needs some help.

Also, Fighters can be of any alignment, so that alone is one reason to choose that class over Paladin, which can only be of one alignment and must follow a code of conduct. Roleplay restrictions traditionally mean more power after all. The trouble with the class is that power is so front-loaded, there's virtually no reason to remain a Paladin after level 5, which doesn't make much sense for a class that's so devoted to its particular path.


I like the "Rebalanced Paladin" for the Smiting and Lay on Hands changes, that would keep the class viable into higher levels as you can rely on those abilities a lot more, but I'm not sure about the auras and spell choices. Fax Celestis has some really neat ideas from a roleplaying perspective, but I'd be worried that a lot of those mantles would become Fallen Paladin bait.

As for an alternative to the Crusader's random recovery method, you could just give the Crusader the Swordsage's "full round action to recover one" mechanic, but keep the maneuvers known/readied progression of the Crusader.

That's probably fair, I know for the Swordsage it's harder to recover maneuvers because they get more, whereas Crusaders just have to keep using theirs until they get back the ones they want because they have fewer available. The Martial Paladin though probably doesn't need to be compensated with extra maneuvers since this is already an additional class feature (albeit at a loss of others).